The MN Bridge Collapse

[LouiseVargas]

The bridge collapse in St. Paul, MN, was a tragedy. I believe there are 50 cars under the water. The bridge collapsed in three sections. The workers were only repaving the surface.

Michael Chertoff, the United States Secretary of Homeland Security said this was not a terrorist attack. Yet, the same Michael Chertoff said he had a gut feeling that something was about to happen. The terrorists said for us to expect a big attack this summer.

While this was a tragedy, as I wrote above, I wonder if this is big enough to be considered a terrorist attack - the big attack.

After September 11, I thought we would be attacked in "smaller" venues. Shopping malls, movie theaters, etc. I never thought about things like highways and bridges. I've always been afraid of bridges after I saw a movie as a kid called The Bridge of San Luis Rey wherein several unrelated people who happened to be on an Inca rope-fiber suspension bridge in Peru when it collapses, killing them.

Why could this not be terrorism? A little bit of terror here and there (unexpected in normal circumstances) can work just as well as a major attack. It serves to always keep us on edge, expecting normalcy but ready for a major attack. It instills fear in us, every day.

I don't think the bridge collapsed from age. I don't care what explanations the authorities give.

[LouiseVargas]

There was no reasonfor the bridge to collapse. I do believe it was a terrorist attack. I don't believe Chertoff.

[FoolsGold]

Nothing whatsoever points to some sort of terrorist attack.

This is a catastrophic failure of a structure that was clearly weakened and in need of repair.

Response to the disaster was fairly good though the need for speciaized teams such as swift water rescue and dive teams was not communicated promptly enough, nor was the triage area and ambulance assembly point determined promptly enough and communicated promptly enough.

Media alerts were poorly coordinated.

But nothing about this is related to any explosion that took out support columns.

[FoolsGold]

The only political point in all this bridge collapse stuff is that you can't spend money on building bridges in America if you try to build bridges to these uncivilized countries in the middle east. If you spend the money and lives on making other countries safer, you will lose money and lives as old and decaying bridges in America collapse.

[Easywriter]

Here is an interesting website that gives info on typical bridge inspection and maintenance.  The average lifespan for a bridge is 70 years, but requires routine inspection, etc.

The US has 578,000 highway bridges, which are the lifelines of US commerce. The average life span of highway bridges is about 70 years and the majority of bridges currently in use were built after 1945. However, significant environmental damage requiring repair typically occurs before the average bridge reaches mid-life.

http://www.ndt-ed.org/AboutNDT/SelectedApplications/Bridge_Inspection/Bridge_Inspection.htm

This catastrophe will become very political before it is over, because it was known that the bridge was in poor condition and political leaders decided it was better to spend millions on a sports complex instead of taking care of business.

[klaasend]

Actual footage of the bridge collapsing:

[Mere]

This made me wonder how old the bridges are that cross the Mississippi in New Orleans...the following article gives that information....

It was built within a great bend of the Mississippi (and is therefore called the Crescent City) on subtropical lowlands, now protected from flooding by levees. The river is crossed there by the Algiers Bridge (completed 1991), the Huey P. Long Bridge (completed 1935), and the Greater New Orleans Bridge (completed 1958), which is one of the largest cantilever bridges in the country. Lake Pontchartrain is spanned by a 24-mi (39-km) double causeway (opened 1957).

Now I would like to know who built the MN bridge and the LA bridges....can't find yet...!

[mrs. red]

I think just as in New Orleans, this will be like the Big Dig and the tunnel collapse in Boston.  Politicans deciding that it wasn't important, pocketing or moving the money elsewhere... and a tragedy happened.

[LouiseVargas]

I feel the terrorists have rearranged their tactics and plans to hit soft targets in a way wherein we would not think they were terrorist attacks. I'm sure the bridge (any bridge) can be taken down without an explosion. An explosion would reveal that it WAS a terrorist attack. I feel the terrorists are operating seamlessly and quietly and psychologically.

[Dihannah1]

I've been watching the news pretty much all day and with all the witnesses and the videos, they said, nobody saw any explosions before it happened, so I'm sure it wasn't THIS time.  But your right, it's bound to happen sooner or later, and a bridge could be considered a prime target among many other things.

Our infrastructure has been is disrepair for years and suddenly becoming a big issue now (or should I say "for" now again).   Another example of our decaying infrastructure is our power grids, which went down on the East and the West coast in recent years.  We HAVE to invest in it, or it's going to keep getting worse!

[FoolsGold]

The surveillance camera video shows no explosion and not the slightest lateral movement, only vertical movement. With no shear forces imparting a lateral displacement, the catastrophic failure of structural integrity seems to clearly be a failure at one specific point.

That surveillance camea video is going to be a boon to the forensic structural engineers.

[LouiseVargas]

Again, I'm not saying the bridge came down due to an explosion. It was an experiment. I'm not an engineer so I can't explain it. I just heard an expert on FOX say if one component breaks, the whole bridge collapses. Didn't even mention explosion. This bridge has rescuers stymied. The river is moving debris upstream and downstream and they don't know when they will complete the recovery effort and investigation. The divers can only see a few inches in front of their faces. The muddy Miss.

It's my gut feeling and I'm entitled to that.

Do you know how the Bin Ladens became so fabulously wealthy? Osama Bin Laden's father was an engineer and got a huge exclusive contract with the Saudi royals (remember Osama is a Saudi) to build palaces, roads, infrastructure, electricity, phone lines, ect.

Engineers know how to do things.

Here is a list of bridges in the United States. http://tinyurl.com/3dntp9

When looking at the chaos resulting from the MN bridge collapse, imagine the chaos that could result from a number of bridges coming down .... Golden Gate Bridge, Brooklyn Bridge, and so on .... maybe ten bridges all at once, at the same time. Besides freaking everyone out, transportation would be halted and it's obvious we don't have enough rescue / disaster teams to even deal with the MN bridge.

[A's Fever]

I'm sure it will take quite some time for engineering teams to pinpoint the cause of this catastrophe.  They will have to thoroughly inspect the site (once stabilized), look at video, measure, analyze, etc and it could be a time-consuming project.  I don't know why we look to TV commentators to have all the answers right away.  Those expert pundits on TV probably have little more info about the situation than we do. 

I worry that attributing an event such as this to terrorists, absent any real evidence at this point, could cause unnecessary backlash or retribution against Arab or Muslim citizens.

Also, what happens when we attribute mechanical disasters such as this, or the next plane crash, to terrorism before we know for certain terrorists are the cause - and they might not be?  Aren't we just doing their work for them, spreading fear and terror, perhaps needlessly?

[LouiseVargas]

Dear A's,

Why in the world would you worry and hesitate to attribute the bridge event to the terrorists? They took down the World Trade Center. They have promised to create a spectacular event this summer that will be bigger than September 11.

I think a major problem in the US is disbelief and denial that terrorists could do this to us.

They are watching us and can clearly see that we cannot deal quickly with the bridge disaster. They see we are all tied up with this one incident.  Just as you said, "They will have to thoroughly inspect the site (once stabilized), look at video, measure, analyze, etc and it could be a time-consuming project."

So therefore, they realize we cannot deal with "10 attacks" at the same time. They've got us over a bridge.

I'm sure it will take quite some time for engineering teams to pinpoint the cause of this catastrophe.   I don't know why we look to TV commentators to have all the answers right away.  Those expert pundits on TV probably have little more info about the situation than we do. 

I worry that attributing an event such as this to terrorists, absent any real evidence at this point, could cause unnecessary backlash or retribution against Arab or Muslim citizens.

Also, what happens when we attribute mechanical disasters such as this, or the next plane crash, to terrorism before we know for certain terrorists are the cause - and they might not be?  Aren't we just doing their work for them, spreading fear and terror, perhaps needlessly?

[SteveDinMD]

     The collapse was almost certainly due to the confluence of three contributing factors: 

1)  Inadequate Design -- The bridge was not terribly old, so design factors are strongly suspected.  By comparison, the Brooklyn Bridge was completed in 1883, and was the FIRST structural application of steel wire.  It stands today, and remains in constant use.  In fact, the NEWEST of all East River crossings into Manhattan was completed in 1909.  Sound engineering stands the test of time. 

2)  Inadequate Maintenance -- Minnesota is known for frequent extreme winter weather, during which highway maintenance routinely includes application of vast amounts of salt.  Had any extraordinary precautions been taken to protect steel structural members from accelerated corrosion from this road salt? 

3)  Incompetent Inspection/Follow-Up -- There had been many indications that something was amiss for years.  Structural cracks in the steel truss members -- up to 4 feet long -- had been identified.  They were repaired by "sistering" steel plates along the cracks -- a mere bandaid.  Structural engineers had also reported significant deformation of some truss members, which strongly implies system instability.  It will be interesting to find out who knew what, when they knew it, and what they did about it. 

[FoolsGold]

Why in the world would you worry and hesitate to attribute the bridge event to the terrorists?

Because a knee-jerk "gut reaction" of terrorism despite all the available evidence is offensive to people who want to approach the issue with a due regard for the truth.

[MuffyBee]

Why in the world would you worry and hesitate to attribute the bridge event to the terrorists?

Because a knee-jerk "gut reaction" of terrorism despite all the available evidence is offensive to people who want to approach the issue with a due regard for the truth.

I'm with you on this one FoolsGold, And A's Fever. 

[FoolsGold]

Pigeons!
Pigeons???
Yes, Pigeons!
Now the bridge collapse is being blamed on pigeon excrement as being corrosive as well as concealing crack propagation.

[SteveDinMD]

Pigeons!
Pigeons???
Yes, Pigeons!
Now the bridge collapse is being blamed on pigeon excrement as being corrosive as well as concealing crack propagation.

As much as Minnesota highway officials might wish they could, it will be impossible for them to attribute the collapse to bird droppings, and avoid personal accountability.  If, as it turns out, bird droppings were a contributing factor, such could ONLY be the case in conjunction with inadequate maintennance and incompetent inspection.