Lively Case Discussion #673 8/3 - 8/5/2007

[Observer]

I think it's a good idea if we can send that picture off to someone who can distinguish between a human and a monkey arm bone..Anyone know what that specialists would be called? Anyone have any ideas? Would be nice to put this to rest once and for all.

aahhhh anthropology would do. Or a primatologist.

Ok..Thanks..I think I will send the pic just to get a answer for our own curiosities. Unfortunaltely we dont have pics of the bones found in Aruba to determine if they were indeed donkey bones.

[Kermit]

Different witnesses. The witness who saw her get in the car was not the one who saw Deepak leading her out. The witness saw them turn a corner into a small street or alleyway. Some have suggested this is the path to the parking lot, but this witness does not know if it is or isn't.

The situation also begs the question, Did she get in the car on two different occasions? If, as Newswatcher wondered, she was in the car, asked to stop to use the restroom, and then willingly led back to the car, there could be two different witnesses sightings -- or just of one, not knowing of the other. Although... If that happened, wouldn't Deepak have dropped her off in front of the bar, having already been on the road?

So many questions. {:-(

Posted by: arbeej | Nov 1, 2005 12:31:24 PM







[/quote]

[KarmaRoundUp]

I think the getting Nat to another bar within CnC's was important because that was the process of getting her away from her group and to a more secluded and controlled location so they could provide her with the drugged drink.

And thereafter be able to keep an eye on her and help steer her in the direction the perps intended.

Wonder why they did not steer her right out the back door to the Kalpoe's car....surely there is a back door to the parking lot....(things I think about)....

No - the back door does NOT lead to the parking lot where Deepak's car was.  You have to walk out the front door of CnC and walk all the way to the end of the street then walk back behind the buildings.

Hi Kermit
I'm confused....is this the front of C&C's?If so,the back door is really not a back door?

[klaasend]

Here is a couple of Dash's posts regarding Natalee yelling out the window.  I'm still looking for more:

Jun 14, 2005 10:43 pm:  (Responding to this question, "I read that Natalee rolled down the window and shouted as she drove off with the three guys. Are there any thoughts that, in hindsight, that she was shouting for help?") She wasn't shouting for help, I think she honestly thought they were taking her back to the hotel


Jun 15, 2005 12:02 am:  (Responding to question, "Dash [codename for Alana], can you confirm where she was in the car when she yelled out to you and the others?")  I didn't see her in the car... she must have got in right after she talked to me. I would assume if she yelled then she would have had to be in the backseat, because the car would have been on the right of the sidewalk 

[mrs. red]

I think the open window and shouting thing was mentioned in the PV's to cover just in case the cop that Deepak saw may have witnessed something as they drove by.

We must remember, there's always truth mixed in with the lies and there's a reason they put each and every detail into the story. Also, a perp often times explains something, BEFORE they're asked.

JMHO
fran

that is why I keep saying if we put all the interviews over each other like a transparency, we would find more of the truth...

[Auntiem]

I think that they drove around to make sure that the drug took effect...

But why would that matter at that point?They already had her in the car with the music blasting.Makes no sense to me why Deepak would drive around the block a couple of times....if he did.If he did,maybe that was the signal to someone?Like"IF you get your victim in the car,drive around such and such block 2 times".

I agree....I didn't get why people were saying they were driving around the block til the drugs kicked in, seems like that would be the last thing they would do, unless, as you said it was as a signal..  You would think once they had her in the car and drugged they would want to get away, and fast.

[KarmaRoundUp]

    Well wasn't there some nonsense about her yelling to her friend "Aruba..WOOO             HOOO.."   and Deepak stopping and telling her to get out of the car and go with her friends.   Wasn't this crap in that movie???

Hey Ramm... welcome!

I think they had to say that she yelled because she did.. only it wasn't woo hoo aruba or anything like that....


NYLover I am still not getting anything in my emails...

from what I remember she had a small discussion with the kids of her class after the "whoo hoo" thingy and that they warned her to come out. If at some point there had been need to scream then it happened after that moment when they drove away from Natalee's classmates.

Hi Ramm
Deepak stated that as he drove by some of the MB kids,one MB guy came up to the car and told Natalee to get out,Natalee told him no,that they would bring her back to her hotel.I don't know IF that was ever confirmed by any of the MB kids tho.

[GrannyToad]

   You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

Isn't that how GHB works?

[Kermit]

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Default Re: HELP - POLICE?! how to contact?!
Elaine,

That is the part that is confusing to me, too. The newspaper report is different from what I heard from my daughter.

My daughter ACTUALLY WITNESSED Natalee right outside the entrance to Carlos & Charlie's at around 1:00 a.m. Monday morning. (The paper says she left at 1:30.) My daughter was leaving the bar with two friends, and they were right behind another group. She called to Natalee and asked if she wanted to walk with them (I forget now if my daughter was headed to the hotel or the bar across the street; I think the latter). Natalee cheerfully said no, she would catch up to the group right ahead and walk with them (implying she would be along in a few moments). My daughter had no idea she would not see Natalee again.

This part my daughter didn't see, but was told by her friends: That Natalie passed them on the road a short while later, and that she was a passenger in a taxi with another person. She clearly did not know she was in danger; she leaned out the window and shouted something like "Aruba!!! WOOHOO!" Still having a wonderful time.

I have read and heard other versions since then -- that she was actually seen getting in a car with three men; that she was alone with the guy in his car; that it was a grey car; that it has been impounded by the police. I don't know which is the accurate account.

The kids she passed assumed she was headed back to the hotel complex. No one thought there was any danger; obviously Natalee did not think so either.

That's the only bit I know was witnessed by my daughter or her other friends. But it is agreed that the guy misrepresented himself, and that she got in willingly. Also, I assume everyone in the bar had been drinking, but none of those who passed Natalee had the impression that Natalee was falling-down-drunk or anything like that. I mean to say, probably she had been drinking and wasn't exercising good judgement, but she wasn't bad off enough to cause concern, or someone with the group would have taken her back to the hotel. There were chaperones there, the kids were of legal drinking age, and no one realized there was any danger.

I'll post if I hear any more news, and now that the media is covering this, I'll very much appreciate reading anything that you guys find out.

[Kermit]

Hi Kermit
I'm confused....is this the front of C&C's?If so,the back door is really not a back door?
[/quote]

That is the front of CnC's and you can see there is an allyway to the back parking lot.

[Carnut]

    Well wasn't there some nonsense about her yelling to her friend "Aruba..WOOO             HOOO.."   and Deepak stopping and telling her to get out of the car and go with her friends.   Wasn't this crap in that movie???

Hey Ramm... welcome!

I think they had to say that she yelled because she did.. only it wasn't woo hoo aruba or anything like that....


NYLover I am still not getting anything in my emails...

from what I remember she had a small discussion with the kids of her class after the "whoo hoo" thingy and that they warned her to come out. If at some point there had been need to scream then it happened after that moment when they drove away from Natalee's classmates.

Hi Ramm
Deepak stated that as he drove by some of the MB kids,one MB guy came up to the car and told Natalee to get out,Natalee told him no,that they would bring her back to her hotel.I don't know IF that was ever confirmed by any of the MB kids tho.

That has never been confirmed by any MB kids.

Dash's posts also don't confirm any of this.

[Auntiem]

 That's what I meant, even in her stat she was trying to get help.  When a person is drugged, of course a cry for help would come out in a strange way.  She could even have yelled Woo Hoo...to yell, get their attention....in her condition that may have been the only possible way

I think if Natalee would have been able to yell out anything it would have been the universal HELP.

Not necessarily, I believe that when people are drugged, they slur their words, have  trouble speaking, thinking...HELP may not have been something Natalee could verbalize in her condition.
  
  Also interesting Dash could not SEE her in the car.  If she opened the window to call for help, she should have been seen, Joran must have pulled her away.

[Rammstein]

    You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

as far as we have heard no-one has come forward or no-one we know has given witness evidence as to her not coming of her own volition. C and C's was emptying out, more than just the 3 would have most likely used the walk-way to the parking lot and more cars would have most likely been parked there.

According to the re-construction video they stopped and Natalee talked with some of her friends and in the video she indicated she didn't want to come with her friends but wanted to stay and go with Joran (with the car).

Maybe they promised her they knew a nice club/bar that was open late although then she might have wanted to invite some of her friends with her or made a mention of that.

[fran]

I believe it was Dash who said something about the woo hoo thing.  Then after speaking with all the kids, nobody really remembered Natalee yelling out the car window.

so maybe Dash thought she was yelling woo hoo...and she was screaming something else? 

I do believe that she was drugged at CnC's because prior to going she was able to dance and on the higher stage/dancefloor... if she had been as drunk as they tried to claim... doing drugs etc she wouldn't have been able to dance... not if she couldn't walk...

and why does joran's statments as tamikosmom posted the other day... one time he says she is drunk and can't walk... and other times she is an out of control drunken wild child...

   I need to preview... edit... and the other times she is jsut fine and not drunk at all...

If you watch the evolving of the story, Joran originally said Natalee was drunk and doing drugs and they had ***** in the back seat of the car. Then he said they didn't have sex, she was drinking but not drunk and everything was consensual (consensual what?). Then he said she was perfectly fine and they didn't have sex because he forgot his protection (other words).

That's because he found out he could be charged with rape IF she could not give consent. At the same time he was having to make sure that everyone thought that Natalee was perfectly ok with everything that went on that night. From yelling out the window, D offering to let her off, staying at the beach, going to look at sharks, slaves, hitler, anything to make her look bad and he is Mr. Wonderful in shining armor. NOT!!!!!!! POS

His ONLY mistake was to leave Natalee alone on the beach. Oh, except he forgot the part that she was either unconscientious or dead. Oh.......and I do NOT believe her left her on the beach HE said that night either, they were never there. I believe he left her on A beach, just not that one and maybe with a little sand over her? grrrrrrrrrr

JMHO
fran

[KarmaRoundUp]

   You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

I think because at least Joran,has done this 20 times before.I don't think she did go willingly,I think she was naive and believed what Joran was potraying himself to be.....a Dutch student sporter staying at the same hotel as Natalee.That's quite a disguise for a monster.

[KarmaRoundUp]

    Well wasn't there some nonsense about her yelling to her friend "Aruba..WOOO             HOOO.."   and Deepak stopping and telling her to get out of the car and go with her friends.   Wasn't this crap in that movie???

Hey Ramm... welcome!

I think they had to say that she yelled because she did.. only it wasn't woo hoo aruba or anything like that....


NYLover I am still not getting anything in my emails...

from what I remember she had a small discussion with the kids of her class after the "whoo hoo" thingy and that they warned her to come out. If at some point there had been need to scream then it happened after that moment when they drove away from Natalee's classmates.

Don't think any kids in her class has said they saw her in the car and asked her to get out.

Think that was a misslead from the reenaction show.

Hi Carnut
I haven't heard that confirmed by any of the MB kids either.

[klaasend]

Kermit  - thanks I was looking for that post of Arbeej's

Here's another (I don't think it's the same)



http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g1-o610-k170488-i9659-Off_topic_chatter.html
"NATALEE WAS NOT THE GIRL WHO WAS SICK IN THE BATHROOM AT C&C's! My daughter had already told me she was puzzled by that story 'cause she neither saw nor heard anything of the kind regarding Natalee. We were at the vigil yesterday and they were discussing that... It turned out to be other girls on the trip. Somebody had mentioned that at church and these girls went, "Oh no! That was US!" It was definitely not Natalee.
My daughter spoke with Natalee right after C&C's closed.
My daughter & her friends came across Nat & Joran as all were exiting the club, and all were walking more or less together toward another group of classmates.
Natalee was walking unassisted (not falling down drunk), spoke ok (though not answering in long sentences), and was not touching Joran. My daughter only noticed that Joran was tall, dark-haired, American-looking; he did not speak and she couldn't read his facial expressions.
Nat turned down my daughter's invitation to go with her little group. (Ironically, they were about to circle the inside of another club to make sure no others were left behind.)
Nat assured them that she was fine, and said she was going to go back to the hotel "with THEM," pointing to the MBHS group just a few yards ahead.
The Kalpoes were nowhere in sight; neither was the car.
Next Alana heard was that Natalee got into a car that many in the group had thought was a taxi. (Those look like regular cars.)
It may be that the Kalpoes pulled up on the street before Natalee reached the next group; Joran may have deliberately stalled her. The group may not have even realized she was behind them, approaching. But while we hear that she got in the car willingly, we know from her comments that it was not her pre-planned intention.
Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone."

[KarmaRoundUp]

I believe it was Dash who said something about the woo hoo thing.  Then after speaking with all the kids, nobody really remembered Natalee yelling out the car window.

Do you know if any of the MB kids actually saw Natalee in the Kalpoe car?

[KarmaRoundUp]

I think the open window and shouting thing was mentioned in the PV's to cover just in case the cop that Deepak saw may have witnessed something as they drove by.

I thought I read somewhere that this was actually the Visibility Team that Deepak passed that night...not sure tho.

[NYC_lover]

NYLover I am still not getting anything in my emails...

Mrs. Red, I have send a email with my yahoo account too u.