Lively Case Discussion #673 8/3 - 8/5/2007

[Auntiem]

  Well then, did we ever really get the story of those last minuts outside C&C? And I'm not talkin about the fairy tale t.v. version.

[mrs. red]

NYLover I am still not getting anything in my emails...

Mrs. Red, I have send a email with my yahoo account too u.

I got the yahoo one and replied...

[KarmaRoundUp]

I believe it was Dash who said something about the woo hoo thing.  Then after speaking with all the kids, nobody really remembered Natalee yelling out the car window.

so maybe Dash thought she was yelling woo hoo...and she was screaming something else? 

I do believe that she was drugged at CnC's because prior to going she was able to dance and on the higher stage/dancefloor... if she had been as drunk as they tried to claim... doing drugs etc she wouldn't have been able to dance... not if she couldn't walk...

and why does joran's statments as tamikosmom posted the other day... one time he says she is drunk and can't walk... and other times she is an out of control drunken wild child...

I think because Joran got himself in a jam with that lie.
Joran had to lie and say Natalee was drunk because he knew that people who know Natalee well,know dang well she would never go willingly with him....at the same time,he couldn't say she was all that drunk because then it turns into Natalee not giving Joran consent to have sex which would then be rape.Joran sure does weave a lot of webs.

[San]

    You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

as far as we have heard no-one has come forward or no-one we know has given witness evidence as to her not coming of her own volition. C and C's was emptying out, more than just the 3 would have most likely used the walk-way to the parking lot and more cars would have most likely been parked there.

According to the re-construction video they stopped and Natalee talked with some of her friends and in the video she indicated she didn't want to come with her friends but wanted to stay and go with Joran (with the car).

Maybe they promised her they knew a nice club/bar that was open late although then she might have wanted to invite some of her friends with her or made a mention of that.

This reconstruction video is based on what 3 suspects who are known liars are stating.  We don't know for a fact that Natalee wanted to stay with Joran.  She told her friend that she was going back to the hotel.  It is obsurd to think she would leave her friends to go willingly with these guys just for a drink.  If she wanted to drink some more I'm sure she could have had some drinks at the hotel with her friends.

[Rammstein]

Don't think any kids in her class has said they saw her in the car and asked her to get out.

Think that was a misslead from the reenaction show.

I think it was David Kock (lawyer of Satish) who said that based on court documents/statements from the students (at least that is what Scrux writes)

[klaasend]

    You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

as far as we have heard no-one has come forward or no-one we know has given witness evidence as to her not coming of her own volition. C and C's was emptying out, more than just the 3 would have most likely used the walk-way to the parking lot and more cars would have most likely been parked there.

According to the re-construction video they stopped and Natalee talked with some of her friends and in the video she indicated she didn't want to come with her friends but wanted to stay and go with Joran (with the car).

Maybe they promised her they knew a nice club/bar that was open late although then she might have wanted to invite some of her friends with her or made a mention of that.

This reconstruction video is based on what 3 suspects who are known liars are stating.  We don't know for a fact that Natalee wanted to stay with Joran.  She told her friend that she was going back to the hotel.  It is obsurd to think she would leave her friends to go willingly with these guys just for a drink.  If she wanted to drink some more I'm sure she could have had some drinks at the hotel with her friends.

Exactly - especially since it was all inclusive.  She could have just gone back to the hotel.  I really believe that is where she thought she was going.  Joran had told them he was staying there.

[mrs. red]

As usual, San I agree with you.

[SunFreak2]

   You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

Isn't that how GHB works?

Hello - yes it works on inhibitions first.  It disinhibits normal instincts.

[Kermit]

I believe it was Dash who said something about the woo hoo thing.  Then after speaking with all the kids, nobody really remembered Natalee yelling out the car window.

Do you know if any of the MB kids actually saw Natalee in the Kalpoe car?

Virginia Page: I remember dancing with her for most of the time, and then an hour before (Carlos ‘N’ Charlies) closed, I didn’t see her again. She hadn’t planned on meeting (Van der Sloot), he just happened to be there


Ed Kissel: I did not see her getting in the car. I saw her leaving, looked like with Van Der Sloot. I didn't see her getting in the car. You couldn't really see the road from inside the bar, so that is what I saw.   source


Ruth McVay: (quoted in interview as saying) Other friends told (me) the story of how (Natalee) got in the car with strangers.  The friends watched as (Natalee) drove away with three guys the friends had met the day before.



Ben Miller:  he later saw her leave Carlos 'N Charlie's, with Kalpoe and his brother Satish.

[fran]

Kermit  - thanks I was looking for that post of Arbeej's

Here's another (I don't think it's the same)



http://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowTopic-g1-o610-k170488-i9659-Off_topic_chatter.html
"NATALEE WAS NOT THE GIRL WHO WAS SICK IN THE BATHROOM AT C&C's! My daughter had already told me she was puzzled by that story 'cause she neither saw nor heard anything of the kind regarding Natalee. We were at the vigil yesterday and they were discussing that... It turned out to be other girls on the trip. Somebody had mentioned that at church and these girls went, "Oh no! That was US!" It was definitely not Natalee.
My daughter spoke with Natalee right after C&C's closed.
My daughter & her friends came across Nat & Joran as all were exiting the club, and all were walking more or less together toward another group of classmates.
Natalee was walking unassisted (not falling down drunk), spoke ok (though not answering in long sentences), and was not touching Joran. My daughter only noticed that Joran was tall, dark-haired, American-looking; he did not speak and she couldn't read his facial expressions.
Nat turned down my daughter's invitation to go with her little group. (Ironically, they were about to circle the inside of another club to make sure no others were left behind.)
Nat assured them that she was fine, and said she was going to go back to the hotel "with THEM," pointing to the MBHS group just a few yards ahead.
The Kalpoes were nowhere in sight; neither was the car.
Next Alana heard was that Natalee got into a car that many in the group had thought was a taxi. (Those look like regular cars.)
It may be that the Kalpoes pulled up on the street before Natalee reached the next group; Joran may have deliberately stalled her. The group may not have even realized she was behind them, approaching. But while we hear that she got in the car willingly, we know from her comments that it was not her pre-planned intention.
Because of this, I do not believe she knew she would be going anywhere but a fairly short distance down to the hotel. Her plans changed in the blink of an eye, and she was gone."

IMHO, this is probably the most likely story of what happened. I do NOT think Natalee would have gone home willingly with a stranger, even if he did say he was going to the same hotel and was from a different country. She DEFINITELY wouldn't go home with THREE strangers.

JMHO
fran

[KarmaRoundUp]

I think that they drove around to make sure that the drug took effect...

But why would that matter at that point?They already had her in the car with the music blasting.Makes no sense to me why Deepak would drive around the block a couple of times....if he did.If he did,maybe that was the signal to someone?Like"IF you get your victim in the car,drive around such and such block 2 times".

maybe to stay in proximity to where they could get more if the first dose wasn't enough??

Hmmmm,that makes sense but why would they risk being caught with a half drugged Natalee,screaming and fighting in the car?I don't think they would risk it and I believe at least Joran was/is very experienced in this game so at least he would know to make sure they had enough of the drug.I don't think Joran is an amatur......that's kinda right up there with Joran showing up the last half hour before a bar closes and forgetting his little condoms so he can't have sex....naaaaaa,Joran would like for a lot of people to think he is that innocent and upstanding of a person.

[Auntiem]

     I still don't think that Natalee, uninhibited or not, would have gotten into a car with 3 guys by herself..  I did some crazy things in college, and in Europe when I was single and with girlfriends, but we NEVER did anything daring by ourselves!!!

[Kermit]

Don't think any kids in her class has said they saw her in the car and asked her to get out.

Think that was a misslead from the reenaction show.

I think it was David Kock (lawyer of Satish) who said that based on court documents/statements from the students (at least that is what Scrux writes)

VAN SUSTEREN: How did your client describe what happened when they left Carlos and Charlie's? What did he say happened when they departed?

KOCK: Oh, you know, that when they left the place going towards their car, that Joran showed up with that girl, that the girl was going to drive with them in the car, that they drove around. But first, they also met a couple of friends of the disappeared girl, who told her, why doesn't she get out of the car, and she said, no, that she was going to drive around. They drove around, drove to the lighthouse, and then coming back towards the high-rises, but Joran asked to be dropped here, next to the Marriott, and that the two of them got out of the car and that they left. And for them, that was the end of it.
http://scrux.com/natalee/kockinterview.htm

[fran]

I gotta run and get some work done. 

I've really enjoyed the conversation today. Hope you all figure this out by the time I get back. It'll probably take me another few days to catch up with you all again at the rate you've been going.

bye

fran

[SunFreak2]

    You know what I am sitting here thinking,  how did they know Natalee would go willingly????  Did her friends ask her if she was ok? Did she really tell them she would catch up to them later?  Did she walk on her on volition into that car??

       I know this sounds stupid....but think about it.  How did these jerks KNOW they could do this so easily....in plain site??

as far as we have heard no-one has come forward or no-one we know has given witness evidence as to her not coming of her own volition. C and C's was emptying out, more than just the 3 would have most likely used the walk-way to the parking lot and more cars would have most likely been parked there.

According to the re-construction video they stopped and Natalee talked with some of her friends and in the video she indicated she didn't want to come with her friends but wanted to stay and go with Joran (with the car).

Maybe they promised her they knew a nice club/bar that was open late although then she might have wanted to invite some of her friends with her or made a mention of that.

Dave has said several times, that one of the MB'ers saw one of the Kalpoes leading her out by the elbow. 

[Auntiem]

I think that they drove around to make sure that the drug took effect...

But why would that matter at that point?They already had her in the car with the music blasting.Makes no sense to me why Deepak would drive around the block a couple of times....if he did.If he did,maybe that was the signal to someone?Like"IF you get your victim in the car,drive around such and such block 2 times".

maybe to stay in proximity to where they could get more if the first dose wasn't enough??

I'm sure they had drugs of their own to keep her drugged!!

[SunFreak2]

I think because at least Joran,has done this 20 times before.I don't think she did go willingly,I think she was naive and believed what Joran was potraying himself to be.....a Dutch student sporter staying at the same hotel as Natalee.That's quite a disguise for a monster.

Hi Karma Smish   

[KarmaRoundUp]

Here is a couple of Dash's posts regarding Natalee yelling out the window.  I'm still looking for more:

Jun 14, 2005 10:43 pm:  (Responding to this question, "I read that Natalee rolled down the window and shouted as she drove off with the three guys. Are there any thoughts that, in hindsight, that she was shouting for help?") She wasn't shouting for help, I think she honestly thought they were taking her back to the hotel

Jun 15, 2005 12:02 am:  (Responding to question, "Dash [codename for Alana], can you confirm where she was in the car when she yelled out to you and the others?")  I didn't see her in the car... she must have got in right after she talked to me. I would assume if she yelled then she would have had to be in the backseat, because the car would have been on the right of the sidewalk 

Thanks Klaas
Has it been confirmed that Dash=Alana?
This sounds like Dash wasn't really there when Natalee supposedly yelled out the car window.Also,Natalee was sitting behind Deepak(driving)so does this mean Natalee yelled across the street from the left side backseat?

[Rammstein]

When they find Natalee (and I hope with all my heart that they do), I think it will be possible to find out the reason for her death but I think that they will not be able to determine whether or not she had been drugged.

[KarmaRoundUp]

I think that they drove around to make sure that the drug took effect...

But why would that matter at that point?They already had her in the car with the music blasting.Makes no sense to me why Deepak would drive around the block a couple of times....if he did.If he did,maybe that was the signal to someone?Like"IF you get your victim in the car,drive around such and such block 2 times".

I agree....I didn't get why people were saying they were driving around the block til the drugs kicked in, seems like that would be the last thing they would do, unless, as you said it was as a signal..  You would think once they had her in the car and drugged they would want to get away, and fast.

That's what I'm thinking too AuntieM.