Lively Case Discussion #673 8/3 - 8/5/2007

[Carnut]

Chapter 11 of Joran's book from Scrux:

(snipped)

P. 156

Jacobs also says that he does not believe the Kalpoes, but believes Joran. "Since they are brothers, brothers stick together. They'll turn against you when it's in their benefit. what do you think is more important family or friends."

Joran became confused. He didn't know what happened to Natalee. He was in jail and was lying and now the Kalpoes are lying about him, so the only possibility is that they did something to the girl. Why would the Kalpoes speak badly about Joran when they said they did nothig bad to the girl.

Van der Straaten arrives and tells Joran that he "has known your father for years. I only want to help you. I am going to see to it that you can go to Holland, that you will not have to go to jail, but that you will be committed to a mental institution. You only have to tell the truth."

(snipped)

I sense more than a little bit of prejudice and some shifting of blame in this.

[MsVada]

BB that is true,  I was thinking it was possible to still be a monkey if the picture was taken from a different angle.....And then we take into consideration the size proportions of the picture I found might be a larger primate than what was found.

I have another comparison picture with human arms.  I personally didn't think it was a human arm, but what do I know, I'm not an expert

[SunFreak2]

Arm bone

There is a theory related to body proportions (sorta like the foot and forearm thing).  Phi is a relationship equal to 1.618.  Various body proportions are based on this number.  Studies using this info have found the forearm related to the forearm plus the hand to be in a proportion of 1.715.  The picture, in the paper, if adding a little for the finger out of view, is proportioned to 1.7.  I have no idea about monkey or donkey bone proportions.  By relationship, the arm bone could be human.  Wasn't there a plane wreck in Venz. at that time??

http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2006/bodyproportions.shtml

Yes,at least that's what we heard at the time when they found the bone there.

Aug 10 – Bone washes up on coast of Venezuela; found by dog walking with owner. Local (Venezuela) newspaper says it was a human humerus (arm bone) with hand/fingers. A later report from Aruba says it was part of a mannequin; in D. Holloway’s book, he says he was told it was a “Halloween prop.” Notes: This finding occurred during the turbulent storm season of 2005. Disastrous plane crash in Venezuela shortly after this finding.

[bleachedblack]

BB that is true,  I was thinking it was possible to still be a monkey if the picture was taken from a different angle.....And then we take into consideration the size proportions of the picture I found might be a larger primate than what was found.

I have another comparison picture with human arms.  I personally didn't think it was a human arm, but what do I know, I'm not an expert

Neither am I MsV That picture of the washed up bone could be monkey, ape , human. I can't even make-out 5 fingers. If it were monkey and the 2 arm bones were "stuck" together .....who knows.

[KarmaRoundUp]

13th  Jan VDS records casual conversation with arrested suspect and offers him time in a mental institution (?? because of the horrid condition Natalee was found to be??).

this is what van der Straten wrote:

JORAN - JUNE 13TH 2005

Proces-verbaal findings

I, Jan van der STRATEN, police chief with the Aruban Police Corps, state the following.

On Monday June 13th 2005, at approximately 13.00 hours I spoke informally with the suspect Joran Andreas Petrus v/d SLOOT at the police station in Oranjestad.

On my question to Joran whether he can tell me what happened after the girl had fallen asleep on the beach near Fisherman's Hut, he answered:

“I called DEEPAK and he came with two dogs. I think he raped the girl and did something to her.”

To my question where the girl was buried then, he answered:
“I think that it was buried then next to the wall of the Fisherman's Hut, for the rest I would not know either.”

During the conversation Joran showed differing emotions. Sometimes he cried, sometimes he was direct in his answers.

Joran also indicated that he was very sorry for his family and that he had the best contact with his father.

When I asked him why did he lie to his father about the Holiday Inn, Joran answered that he had disappointed his father in/with that.

Of this I reported on my oath as officer on June 17th 2005.


J. van der STRATEN

I don't see anything regarding a mental institution.

I think it was Joran who wrote that in his book...about the mental institution.

[Carnut]

Chapter 11 of Joran's book from Scrux:

(snipped)

P. 156

Jacobs also says that he does not believe the Kalpoes, but believes Joran. "Since they are brothers, brothers stick together. They'll turn against you when it's in their benefit. what do you think is more important family or friends."

Joran became confused. He didn't know what happened to Natalee. He was in jail and was lying and now the Kalpoes are lying about him, so the only possibility is that they did something to the girl. Why would the Kalpoes speak badly about Joran when they said they did nothig bad to the girl.

Van der Straaten arrives and tells Joran that he "has known your father for years. I only want to help you. I am going to see to it that you can go to Holland, that you will not have to go to jail, but that you will be committed to a mental institution. You only have to tell the truth."

(snipped)

I sense more than a little bit of prejudice and some shifting of blame in this.

On the other hand the Bolded part actually looks like it might have occured if one could believe that Van Der Stratton was really pursuing a case.

[Rammstein]

Chapter 11 of Joran's book from Scrux:

(snipped)

P. 156

Jacobs also says that he does not believe the Kalpoes, but believes Joran. "Since they are brothers, brothers stick together. They'll turn against you when it's in their benefit. what do you think is more important family or friends."

Joran became confused. He didn't know what happened to Natalee. He was in jail and was lying and now the Kalpoes are lying about him, so the only possibility is that they did something to the girl. Why would the Kalpoes speak badly about Joran when they said they did nothig bad to the girl.

Van der Straaten arrives and tells Joran that he "has known your father for years. I only want to help you. I am going to see to it that you can go to Holland, that you will not have to go to jail, but that you will be committed to a mental institution. You only have to tell the truth."

(snipped)

you are right, I just read it.

I know he was not in a position to make good on that promise. The only one able to decide that is the presiding three judges who will sit at Joran's trial in judgment of him.

Also Joran would have had to be found mentally ill in one of my countries mental institutions.

The police could however have advised him to be admitted for investigation of his mental capacities, however that would not be instead of jail time but as preparation for a trial.

[KarmaRoundUp]

   They found Natalee, don't you all remember?  June of 2005.  There was an announcement,and confirmation...we saw Beth's crumpling body as she got the most tragic news of her life!!!!   But then, came the retraction!  What happened???? The body was not "presentable".....too much DNA.  It was "disappeared!!!!

I believe a lot of things but not this rumor. The wrong department/people told this. Remarks like this are the responsibility of the DA's office or the police, not by politicians or people from a ministry.

Didn't Dompig also announce this?

YES!!!!!!   It was not a RUMOR!!!!!!

I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. Especially not as it was him that came with the anonymous witness that knew the location and it was him that got the specialized dog teams from the KLPD to come and look for her body. If he had already said she had been found then he would not have needed to do this and he would certainly have been asked by the media to explain why he was not looking for a body if he had already pronounced that she had been found?

I believe it was Dompig who stated this....I'll look for the link.

[Rammstein]

Ramm

What if the announcement was made (they were happy)....but then....they got a good look at her....and she didn't look like she had wondered off from the beach.  What if they decided that night...or the big boss (whoever that may be) decided it was better to have no body than to have that body??

the media would have swarmed to that place and images of a van or people digging would have been likely to have been shot by the media.

Again, I cannot for 100% say that she is not on the island but I would think she was brought out to sea that first night and sunk there. Maybe that is why the authorities are that slow in approving sea searches.

[bleachedblack]

Rammstein wrote;

I know he was not in a position to make good on that promise. The only one able to decide that is the presiding three judges who will sit at Joran's trial in judgment of him.

Also Joran would have had to be found mentally ill in one of my countries mental institutions.

The police could however have advised him to be admitted for investigation of his mental capacities, however that would not be instead of jail time but as preparation for a trial.

Anyway you look at that advice, it is not advice you would give someone who simply left a girl sleeping on the beach.

[mrs. red]

Ramm... what is the level to prove that he needs mental help? I mean is the threshhold high or is it low??

[Rammstein]

   They found Natalee, don't you all remember?  June of 2005.  There was an announcement,and confirmation...we saw Beth's crumpling body as she got the most tragic news of her life!!!!   But then, came the retraction!  What happened???? The body was not "presentable".....too much DNA.  It was "disappeared!!!!

I believe a lot of things but not this rumor. The wrong department/people told this. Remarks like this are the responsibility of the DA's office or the police, not by politicians or people from a ministry.

Didn't Dompig also announce this?

YES!!!!!!   It was not a RUMOR!!!!!!

I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. Especially not as it was him that came with the anonymous witness that knew the location and it was him that got the specialized dog teams from the KLPD to come and look for her body. If he had already said she had been found then he would not have needed to do this and he would certainly have been asked by the media to explain why he was not looking for a body if he had already pronounced that she had been found?

I believe it was Dompig who stated this....I'll look for the link.

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.

However, Cruz later retracted the statement, saying he was a victim of a "misinformation campaign."

The mother of the 18-year-old told FOX News authorities had not yet contacted them with this information but did say that Natalee's father, who is divorced from her mother, was with investigators looking for the body.

These reports came after significant, and at times conflicting, developments with the five suspects being detained in the case.

One of the young men detained admitted "something bad happened" to the woman after they took her to the beach, a police officer said, while prosecutors said the investigation was at a crucial point.

But prosecutors refused to comment on the statement by Deputy Police Commissioner Gerold Dompig (search), who told The Associated Press that the man who made that admission was leading police to the scene. He refused to identify which of the three young men who took Holloway to a northern beach the night she went missing made the statement.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

[klaasend]

Rammstein wrote;

I know he was not in a position to make good on that promise. The only one able to decide that is the presiding three judges who will sit at Joran's trial in judgment of him.

Also Joran would have had to be found mentally ill in one of my countries mental institutions.

The police could however have advised him to be admitted for investigation of his mental capacities, however that would not be instead of jail time but as preparation for a trial.

Anyway you look at that advice, it is not advice you would give someone who simply left a girl sleeping on the beach.

Exactly

[Buckeye]

Ramm

He was seeing a mental health professional before his arrest.  Who knows what the diagnosis is.  Being a minor, with a legal father, I am sure the judges would have listened to JVDS wishes if it meant solving the case.  Maybe the judges had already suggested it to JVDS. 

[KarmaRoundUp]

Ramm

What if the announcement was made (they were happy)....but then....they got a good look at her....and she didn't look like she had wondered off from the beach.  What if they decided that night...or the big boss (whoever that may be) decided it was better to have no body than to have that body??

Hmmmm,yes,and what if they were afraid of whose DNA would be on her body....like maybe Paulus's?

[Buckeye]

Ramm

What if the announcement was made (they were happy)....but then....they got a good look at her....and she didn't look like she had wondered off from the beach.  What if they decided that night...or the big boss (whoever that may be) decided it was better to have no body than to have that body??

Hmmmm,yes,and what if they were afraid of whose DNA would be on her body....like maybe Paulus's?

 

[Destiny]

Ramm

What if the announcement was made (they were happy)....but then....they got a good look at her....and she didn't look like she had wondered off from the beach.  What if they decided that night...or the big boss (whoever that may be) decided it was better to have no body than to have that body??

Hmmmm,yes,and what if they were afraid of whose DNA would be on her body....like maybe Paulus's?

BINGO!

Destiny

[KarmaRoundUp]

   They found Natalee, don't you all remember?  June of 2005.  There was an announcement,and confirmation...we saw Beth's crumpling body as she got the most tragic news of her life!!!!   But then, came the retraction!  What happened???? The body was not "presentable".....too much DNA.  It was "disappeared!!!!

I believe a lot of things but not this rumor. The wrong department/people told this. Remarks like this are the responsibility of the DA's office or the police, not by politicians or people from a ministry.

Didn't Dompig also announce this?

YES!!!!!!   It was not a RUMOR!!!!!!

I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. Especially not as it was him that came with the anonymous witness that knew the location and it was him that got the specialized dog teams from the KLPD to come and look for her body. If he had already said she had been found then he would not have needed to do this and he would certainly have been asked by the media to explain why he was not looking for a body if he had already pronounced that she had been found?

I believe it was Dompig who stated this....I'll look for the link.

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice (search) told FOX News Natalee Holloway (search), who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.

However, Cruz later retracted the statement, saying he was a victim of a "misinformation campaign."

The mother of the 18-year-old told FOX News authorities had not yet contacted them with this information but did say that Natalee's father, who is divorced from her mother, was with investigators looking for the body.

These reports came after significant, and at times conflicting, developments with the five suspects being detained in the case.

One of the young men detained admitted "something bad happened" to the woman after they took her to the beach, a police officer said, while prosecutors said the investigation was at a crucial point.

But prosecutors refused to comment on the statement by Deputy Police Commissioner Gerold Dompig (search), who told The Associated Press that the man who made that admission was leading police to the scene. He refused to identify which of the three young men who took Holloway to a northern beach the night she went missing made the statement.


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,159252,00.html

OK,does that not prove that Dompig stated that?

[SunFreak2]

   They found Natalee, don't you all remember?  June of 2005.  There was an announcement,and confirmation...we saw Beth's crumpling body as she got the most tragic news of her life!!!!   But then, came the retraction!  What happened???? The body was not "presentable".....too much DNA.  It was "disappeared!!!!

I believe a lot of things but not this rumor. The wrong department/people told this. Remarks like this are the responsibility of the DA's office or the police, not by politicians or people from a ministry.

Didn't Dompig also announce this?

YES!!!!!!   It was not a RUMOR!!!!!!

I don't remember him ever saying such a thing. Especially not as it was him that came with the anonymous witness that knew the location and it was him that got the specialized dog teams from the KLPD to come and look for her body. If he had already said she had been found then he would not have needed to do this and he would certainly have been asked by the media to explain why he was not looking for a body if he had already pronounced that she had been found?

I believe it was Dompig who stated this....I'll look for the link.

June 10  - Late that evening FOX News, AP and CNN reported that Dompig and Edward Croes stated that one of the arrested suspects had confessed, and police were being taken to a crime scene. DOMPIG also stated that one of the persons in custody had stated  "that something bad happened to NATALEE.”  Shortly after that statement became public, a press conference was held in which one senior government official made no reference to the Assistant Commissioner's statement, choosing rather, to say that the authorities were at a critical juncture in the investigations.

[Buckeye]

Ramm

The info was leaked by the police.  Say what you want about the US media, but they do try to confirm a lead.  They chose the Justice Ministry (maybe there was no answer at the OM office). No matter how it happened....it was not made up...it was real.  You believe misinformation, I believe true information retracted.