Lively Case Discussion #673 8/3 - 8/5/2007

[Rammstein]

Ramm... what is the level to prove that he needs mental help? I mean is the threshhold high or is it low??

this is something I found regarding the Pieter Baan Centrum (mental facility)

In Dutch criminal cases in which doubts arise about the defendant's mental health, a forensic assessment will be requested. This is provided either by the multidisciplinary staff of residential clinics who conduct forensic evaluations for the court, or by mental health professionals contracted on a part-time basis by district courts. This article discusses the procedures applied in such cases as well as the relevant legal provisions. It focuses particularly on the clinical observation, evaluation, and reporting that is carried out over a number of weeks in the residential setting of the Pieter Baan Centrum. Specific attention is paid to procedures applied in this clinic. It is suggested that Dutch procedures for the use of mental health expertise can best be characterized by three aspects: multidisciplinary observation and reporting, the use of a sliding scale for indicating degree of responsibility, and, finally, the involvement and payment of experts by the state as such, rather than by the prosecution and/or the defense.


the entire discussion/article can be purchased for 25$ but I am not going to do that if you don't mind 

But as it says here a suspect is sent (almost always by the judge as preparation for the trial) and kept for several weeks to assess his mental health and his degree of responsibility.

But even if he had been found to be mentally ill that would have been even worse in his case.

For manslaughter (which is what he would have been guilty off) he would have gotten 8 to 12 years (as a rule) and would have been out in 6 to 8 years or so. As a mental deficient offender he would have been sentenced to 6 to 8 years with TBS and mandatory treatment which usually means he would be locked up for 10 years or longer (he could even be kept in for forever).

Even if it had been unintentional manslaughter with TBS he would face much longer behind bars that if he would have confessed and taken his punishment.

The threshold is very high and is in degrees, but TBS is something every convict wants to avoid as it can be a life sentence.

I know of one case in which a pedophile was arrested for some perverted act that would have cost him a few years in jail, instead he got TBS and has been incarcerated for I believe more than 40 years.

As said, TBS can last for forever. If they deem you uncurable then you will never be released, ever.

[Rammstein]

Rammstein wrote;

I know he was not in a position to make good on that promise. The only one able to decide that is the presiding three judges who will sit at Joran's trial in judgment of him.

Also Joran would have had to be found mentally ill in one of my countries mental institutions.

The police could however have advised him to be admitted for investigation of his mental capacities, however that would not be instead of jail time but as preparation for a trial.

Anyway you look at that advice, it is not advice you would give someone who simply left a girl sleeping on the beach.

Exactly

I agree, it would either be to trick him to either betray his own involvement in Natalee's death or the Kalpoes.

[bleachedblack]

O/T here we have talked about ways of getting pedophiles off the street here so that they don't commit another crime. As they are technically incurable many would agree, maybe that is a way.......TBS .

[mrs. red]

Thanks Ramm!!!  Interesting... it would be better for us, in this case if he were held in an mental capacity....

Did you see the Jensen show? 

[Rammstein]

Ramm

The info was leaked by the police.  Say what you want about the US media, but they do try to confirm a lead.  They chose the Justice Ministry (maybe there was no answer at the OM office). No matter how it happened....it was not made up...it was real.  You believe misinformation, I believe true information retracted.

both opinions have some valid points, both are at least more believable than the Ref. opinions on where Natalee is 

[SunFreak2]

On June 10 - a body was recovered at the Arubay rocks.  Aruba says a 7 year old boy was recovered the year before.  I say it was Natalee.

[mrs. red]

O/T here we have talked about ways of getting pedophiles off the street here so that they don't commit another crime. As they are technically incurable many would agree, maybe that is a way.......TBS .

I had that thought too... now to get the stupid politicans and judges to implement it...

[Rammstein]

Example:

83 year old pedophile was deemed to old/phycically to be jailed or locked in a mental facility. Thus he was convicted to be forcibly treated by a shrink, forced to take meds to suppress his tendencies and he is followed by satellite tracking 24/7 and is banned from places where children come (like parks, schools etc.) and when he comes within the vicinity of such a place then the local police is automatically alerted to this.

Example 2:

a 64 year old man has been in TBS since he accosted an 11 year old girl when he was 17. During trial leave he suspected to have done the same to a 6 year old girl. After that he was deemed untreatable and his been in TBS for 47 year

[mrs. red]

Example:

83 year old pedophile was deemed to old/phycically to be jailed or locked in a mental facility. Thus he was convicted to be forcibly treated by a shrink, forced to take meds to suppress his tendencies and he is followed by satellite tracking 24/7 and is banned from places where children come (like parks, schools etc.) and when he comes within the vicinity of such a place then the local police is automatically alerted to this.

Example 2:

a 64 year old man has been in TBS since he accosted an 11 year old girl when he was 17. During trial leave he suspected to have done the same to a 6 year old girl. After that he was deemed untreatable and his been in TBS for 47 year

I like this system.... seems like it works.  How do we get our politicans to do this

[Nut44x4]

On June 10 - a body was recovered at the Arubay rocks.  Aruba says a 7 year old boy was recovered the year before.  I say it was Natalee.

I believe she was moved several times after death (sorry  ...it sickens me to even think it). I do believe she WAS at the rocks at some point. Her resting place now.....the depths of the ocean. Tim and crew will find her.

[Buckeye]

Example:

83 year old pedophile was deemed to old/phycically to be jailed or locked in a mental facility. Thus he was convicted to be forcibly treated by a shrink, forced to take meds to suppress his tendencies and he is followed by satellite tracking 24/7 and is banned from places where children come (like parks, schools etc.) and when he comes within the vicinity of such a place then the local police is automatically alerted to this.

Example 2:

a 64 year old man has been in TBS since he accosted an 11 year old girl when he was 17. During trial leave he suspected to have done the same to a 6 year old girl. After that he was deemed untreatable and his been in TBS for 47 year

Maybe that's why PVDS said no deal ...just be quiet Joran...????

[Buckeye]

On June 10 - a body was recovered at the Arubay rocks.  Aruba says a 7 year old boy was recovered the year before.  I say it was Natalee.

I believe she was moved several times after death (sorry  ...it sickens me to even think it). I do believe she WAS at the rocks at some point. Her resting place now.....the depths of the ocean. Tim and crew will find her.

 

[GrannyToad]

here is the arm of a monkey....for comparison

Larger gap between radius and ulna, probably due to increased muscle mass/ weight bearing just a guess

-A- monkey. That's another good image, though.

Not all primates are the same, structures differ between species. Turn that a bit on its side an it may appear different. Again, compare fingers (phalanges) with those of the human, especially the thumb.

I did this stuff some back at university but not much with other primates. I still have a comparative bone collection around here for some other vertebrates.

[Buckeye]

Granny

So, does this mean you believe the Venz. bone to be more primate than human??

[SunFreak2]

here is the arm of a monkey....for comparison

Larger gap between radius and ulna, probably due to increased muscle mass/ weight bearing just a guess

-A- monkey. That's another good image, though.

Not all primates are the same, structures differ between species. Turn that a bit on its side an it may appear different. Again, compare fingers (phalanges) with those of the human, especially the thumb.

I did this stuff some back at university but not much with other primates. I still have a comparative bone collection around here for some other vertebrates.

Thanks, GT.

[Buckeye]

Did anyone on the island let MF know that Lorenzo's been released??  I feel sorry for him.  He has such a following.  Maybe Destiny can give him her contact info. 

[Nut44x4]

Did anyone on the island let MF know that Lorenzo's been released??  I feel sorry for him.  He has such a following.  Maybe Destiny can give him her contact info. 

HAHAHAAAAAA!! Good one, lol.

[Rammstein]

Example:

83 year old pedophile was deemed to old/phycically to be jailed or locked in a mental facility. Thus he was convicted to be forcibly treated by a shrink, forced to take meds to suppress his tendencies and he is followed by satellite tracking 24/7 and is banned from places where children come (like parks, schools etc.) and when he comes within the vicinity of such a place then the local police is automatically alerted to this.

Example 2:

a 64 year old man has been in TBS since he accosted an 11 year old girl when he was 17. During trial leave he suspected to have done the same to a 6 year old girl. After that he was deemed untreatable and his been in TBS for 47 year

I like this system.... seems like it works.  How do we get our politicans to do this

oh it is not perfect, it needs constant vigilance to make it as safe as possible. And sometimes things go wrong, but that is a small number of cases. Most who are treatable will go through full treatment, leave with supervision, leave without supervision, off site housing with supervision to off site housing without 24/7 supervision to when the treatment is final to unsupervised living. A process that takes many years to complete (and if you combine this with the risk of being deemed untreatable, you can understand why criminals dislike getting TBS).

[Buckeye]

O/T to Ramm

Was reading up on Dutch attitude regarding transport of drugs (swallowing cocaine balls etc).  It said, the feeling was that poor people are the carriers and the goal is the shipper himself.  They don't arrest the carrier (the jails would fill up) but record his info (so he can't carry again) and send him back. Article said it has put a big dent into the shippers.  Is this true??

[SunFreak2]

Interesting discussions and I hate to leave......but, g'nite everyone.