Lively Case Discussion #510 8/11 - 8/12/2006

[Katysmom]

FROM THE LETTER:

We believe that she must have received the letter shortly before Natalee was reported as missing since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and started looking for some one to blame right away, to take the responsibility away from Jug.

San wrote:

I think Paulus really wanted to say this:

Since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and didn't let me finish my plans to frame the security guards.

I'd really like to know if the FBI, ALE, or anyone investigated this fully.  But, then, I'd really like to know if they've investigated any part of this case.

[mishy]

So is Whoran banned from C'nC's? I've been offline for a couple of days? Can anybody throw me a bone? TIA!!!

And thanks to everybody for participating in the prayer chain and for those who prayed along with us!! What powerful stuff!!!!!!!

Hi Mish...share your bone   I THINK the info comes from a front page poster

Thanks Sunny...very cool that you went to the TES gathering today. I love your fire hydrant emoticon. Hope you don't mind that I snatched it    

I hope your pinched nerve can resolve itself very soon. Those kinds of things really hurt, don't they?

[San]

FROM THE LETTER:

We believe that she must have received the letter shortly before Natalee was reported as missing since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and started looking for some one to blame right away, to take the responsibility away from Jug.

San wrote:

I think Paulus really wanted to say this:

Since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and didn't let me finish my plans to frame the security guards.

I'd really like to know if the FBI, ALE, or anyone investigated this fully.  But, then, I'd really like to know if they've investigated any part of this case.

Well as far as Aruba there was never any investigation done.  They were too busy orchestrating the coverup.  Let's hope the FBI has something.

[Tylergal]

FROM SHIZARU'S TIME LINE (Great work, Shiz).

On an unspecified day a weird message is left on the phone in their hotel room, by a woman saying that “Rosemary” is scheduled for a massage off the hotel property (Whatley 302)

On an unspecified afternoon, while Natalee and her 3 roommates are taking a nap in the room, someone tries to open the sliding glass door. When McVay looks out the door she sees a dark uniform going around a corner (Whatley 302)

Was there a MB kid named Rosemary on the trip?  Or even a person staying in the hotel by the name of Rosemary?

I hope the girls reported the sliding glass door incident when it happened. Black uniform - visibility team?

Sunfreak, that was what I was alluding to.  If they reported it, perhaps Guido had knowledge of that report, and would tell the family ( the VDS family) so they could make plans to blame "two security guards in black uniforms," or if it was on record at HI, it could be that  the VDS had access to that information and secondary to knowing the MBers would have also told Beth & Dave, then the black guys in the black uniforms would have been an easy target, as it appeared they had already been trying to make their moves on the girls.  I did read in one of the statements or those documents from Greta's illegally obtaining records that there was black uniform/black arm, so that makes it a great story for Paulus to go with his own home-made version of blaming it on two black security guards.

Why are you thinking Guido the casino dealer would know?  Do you mean GVC, who's father runs the security business?

Guido worked at Excelsior, part of HI, and it appears that Guido was giving information about the MB kids to the Sloot family, based on what I am reading.  Even Shango references it, the dice rollers.  I think Joran went to the Casino knowing the kids would be there.  He says they came and sat with him.  Did someone suggest that the MBers go to that table.  Would a dice roller do that?  If information was needed by the Sloots, Guido worked in the vicinity and if he had scratches, he needed an alibi as well.  He could easily get that information.  Gossip in a hostelry is just like a small work place, news travels fast and he would have known about this incident within 10 minutes, possibly even before the Visibility Team.

[klaasend]

Tylergal - good point about Guido

[mishy]

Spock wrote:

The Dutch only listed the files on the one computer and did not produce the server data. There is no credibility to these chat sessions until the intact server records are examined.

Mishy asks:

Y'mean that ALE didn't get the original records from MSN or whoever??     Or is this just a theory? If they didn't get original records, do you think it is too late to do this?

Why would they think records off of the computer which could be altered would tell any kind of story, exonerate someone, or nail someone? They are a buncha bumbling simpletons...      

[mishy]

FROM THE LETTER:

We believe that she must have received the letter shortly before Natalee was reported as missing since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and started looking for some one to blame right away, to take the responsibility away from Jug.

San wrote:

I think Paulus really wanted to say this:

Since she made such a quick trip to Aruba and didn't let me finish my plans to frame the security guards.

I'd really like to know if the FBI, ALE, or anyone investigated this fully.  But, then, I'd really like to know if they've investigated any part of this case.

Well as far as Aruba there was never any investigation done.  They were too busy orchestrating the coverup.  Let's hope the FBI has something.

San, I hate to say this, but I fear that if the FBI had something substantial, they would have already used it by now. ALE/Aruba kept the juicy details away from the FBI so that they couldn't do anything, IMHO...

[Tylergal]

After reviewing the last round round of statements, the computer logs, cell phone records, it seems to me that whomever drove Joran home that night may have been the last with the girl. She could have been handed off to a second group or left at a party house.

Both Deepak and Satish deny driving Joran home. If we find out who drove Joran home we may find out who was last with Natalee and what they did with her. The chat at 3:25 am does not seem like pimps worried about concealing a death, it seems like two boys bragging about their last accomplishment. I have read that many sexual perps, immediately after the act, relive it by viewing porn. Porn sites were visited and two movies were downloaded for an hour until 4:30 am.

If we can find out who gave Joran the ride home, that person may be deeply involved in the dissapearance. It is also possible this whole thing came down at the Sloot home and there never was a trip to the beach.

Lets talk this over.

I don't think anyone drove Joran home.  The interval between reported time of phone call to Deepak (2:26) and "I'm home" TM matches almost exactly the amount of time it takes to walk the 2 miles from the beach to Jorans' home (40 minutes).  Deepak was on the computer from 2:00-3:00 telling John Croes that Joran was walking home at that same moment.  I think Joran raped and killed her on the beach and then either disappeared her before  walking home (possibly by carrying her a dumpster) or temporarily hid her under some bushes or something and came back for her later by himself or with Paulus.  I suspect either her death or disappearance or both somehow involved going into the ocean near the FH, as Joran's original version of the beach story, told to Deepak that nite, was apparently that he and Natalee went into the ocean and when they came out she passed out.  And Joran's comment to the headmaster on 5/31 was that "maybe she hit her head and drowned".  

Most crimes are simple, this one probably was too.  Ordinary date rape, except that somehow the victim died.  

I don't think she was ever at the VDS home unless it was after the beach.  It doesn't fit the text message records, Joran wouldn't be telling Deepak he was home if Deepak had dropped him off there. And I don't buy any secret code theories, I don't think there was any complicated premeditated plan here, and it's clear these 3 idiots weren't even thinking about polis reading their computer records or the records would have matched their original stories not contradicted them.

Shizaru:

I believe there is room for a difference of opinion here. You have your "read" and I have mine. I don't think Joran walked the 1.7 miles home barefoot in the middle of the night. In one statement Joran says he took Natalee into the hose and had "sex" with her starting at 1;40 am. In another statement, Deepak, said they drove to the Sloot home and Joran and Natalee went inside for 20 minutes. Also, chat records, can be easily deleted and modified. I checked it out myself today with MSN, I was able to all or some delete records at will. The only way to know what was really said is to check the logs of both machines and to subpeona the unaltered records from the MSN server.

The Dutch only listed the files on the one computer and did not produce the server data. There is no credibility to these chat sessions until the intact server records are examined.

SPOCK, go back to about page 27 of this thread and read my post about the FBI on Fox saying these computer times had been "dinked with."  This was very early on.  It was a morning program following Fox & Friends.  Incidentally ,another poster recalls that as well.  So our FBI who was there on the island and asked to leave since their help was not needed, has stated publicly on TV that these computer time lines had been "screwed around" by the perps.  If you recall we were also told that Paulus advised that.  I am sure Deepak was doing the computer rigging at Paulus' instruction.  Paulus is a busy man.  He has a lot of trips to take, letters to write, conversations to establish and time lines to make, in addition to having to comb all the records in Karin Janssen's computer while she was in Netherlands last year, find himself some patsies like Medley Relay, Julia Renfro and SandraK while trying to satisfy his own desires to lurk on porno sites, target young American tourist girls, and God forbid, he got arrested and was having to relay everything through the fat bride with the sea-through blouse.

[mishy]

Tyler                  

[Spock]

I think we are putting too much emphasis on the computer chat records. These records were found on one machine more than ten days after the fact and more than ten days after the suspects had already created the false alibi of the HI dropoff. Likewise, it would not surprise me if the chat records were also altered to form an alibi.

Also, chat records, can be easily deleted and modified. I checked it out myself today with MSN, I was able to all or some delete records at will. The only way to know what was really said is to check the logs of both machines and to subpeona the unaltered records from the MSN server.

The Dutch only listed the files on the one computer and did not produce the server data. There is no credibility to these chat sessions until the intact server records are examined.

Mishy, the document released by the Dutch does not provide the server data or any mention of it. This is a clear problem with making any conclusions from the client data.

[justinsmama]

Tyler                  

I know! I just love her!  

[mishy]

I just found this on the Boycott Aruba site and wanted to share in case ya'll hadn't seen it...I didn't know about this. I wonder if more of these kinds of runs could be done throughout the United States to bring awareness, etc. Just a thought...

RUN FOR NATALEE:

When: August 12, 2006

Time: 9:00 a.m.

Where: Crestline Village, Mountain Brook, Alabama

Run/Walk Distance: 5K (3.1 miles)



http://runfornatalee.com/



Your participation in this endeavor is essential in making it a worthwhile effort. I can only hope that you are aware of the Natalee Holloway disappearance. It was around this time last year that she was preparing to make the, now infamous, senior trip to Aruba.


It is hard to believe that it has been a whole year, and yet, America still has no answers on the whereabouts of our young daughter. In the meantime, her adamantly devoted family fights to maintain their spot on our televisions, financial backing for the fight for answers and the protection of our children traveling abroad, and finally, still attempting to go about their daily routine without their daughter.


All of this is more than any of us would want to endure or purchase. However, we can help. Whether you are a runner, volunteer, or just wish to donate to our run, you can make a difference. I have no affiliation to the family nor the case, I am simply a resident of the city of Birmingham. I am young mother. But, I feel like I can do something to help this family because, like everyone, I have had days when I needed someone and did not know where to start...I hate the thought of this family feeling that way everyday for an entire year.


They need your help and I need your help making this happen. Remember...giving of yourself for no other reason than that it just feels good is the most contagious, most rewarding, and the most beneficial.



Ashley M. Cockrell,

Race Director

[mishy]

I think we are putting too much emphasis on the computer chat records. These records were found on one machine more than ten days after the fact and more than ten days after the suspects had already created the false alibi of the HI dropoff. Likewise, it would not surprise me if the chat records were also altered to form an alibi.

Also, chat records, can be easily deleted and modified. I checked it out myself today with MSN, I was able to all or some delete records at will. The only way to know what was really said is to check the logs of both machines and to subpeona the unaltered records from the MSN server.

The Dutch only listed the files on the one computer and did not produce the server data. There is no credibility to these chat sessions until the intact server records are examined.

Mishy, the document released by the Dutch does not provide the server data or any mention of it. This is a clear problem with making any conclusions from the client data.

Do you think it's too late to get the original records? I'd love to be enlightened as to what they contain...

[SunFreak2]

Guido worked at Excelsior, part of HI, and it appears that Guido was giving information about the MB kids to the Sloot family, based on what I am reading.  Even Shango references it, the dice rollers.  I think Joran went to the Casino knowing the kids would be there.  He says they came and sat with him.  Did someone suggest that the MBers go to that table.  Would a dice roller do that?  If information was needed by the Sloots, Guido worked in the vicinity and if he had scratches, he needed an alibi as well.  He could easily get that information.  Gossip in a hostelry is just like a small work place, news travels fast and he would have known about this incident within 10 minutes, possibly even before the Visibility Team.

Where was it said that Guido was giving info about the MB kids to the Sloots?  I don't remember that being said in any of the recent statements.

I've worked in a hotel before either as a server or a bartender many many years ago.  There was gossip about other employees but not very much about the patrons of the hotel.  Guido was just a high school kid and had not been working at the casino very long.  He may have been a Dutch elite, but I don't think he was a big dog at the casino/hotel.

[Tylergal]

OFF-TOPIC Whoa, we had a storm last night and I did not realize it was that bad.  I am now being told that we had winds approximating 60-80 miles per hour.  Of course, I was inside.  Now that daylight is here and we go outside, we have two trees down at the back of our property.  Neither looks like lightning strikes.  They both appear to have been split from winds.

ON-TOPIC These statements are all lies, but some truth can be obtained from each lie.  I am going to assume the beach is a lie.  I do not believe it.  Natalee was never at the beach alive after 12:01 a.m.  5/30/05.  

I think she was buried near the FH by someone at the instruction of and by payment from Paulus.

[SunFreak2]

Mishy, the document released by the Dutch does not provide the server data or any mention of it. This is a clear problem with making any conclusions from the client data.

These records were suppposedly pulled from the hard drive of the Sloots computer.  How could they (paulus or Joran) delete or alter records on the hard drive without there being a record of that on the hard drive as well?

[thecuz]

hey afternoon monkeys...taking a break from housecleaning...yuck!!!
angie sent me the new post on the so-called letter from natalee!!

.....that has got to be the most ridiculous thing i have read yet...and that stupid julia and her fellow refugee rejects...actually base their beliefs on this crock of shit.......blows my mind!
 
i would like to know how it got a little rock postmark on it???

[Tylergal]

Joran calls Jaime and tells him (afternoon before he ever goes to Casino) about American girls .... he goes to HI under the guise of gambling to meet them.  Why do they go to his table?  Why is Paulus at the table?  Why does Guido just happen to be working the next day?  

Sunfreak, I am not sure what hotels you worked in but if there are interesting guests there, employees talk about them.  They even discuss what size tips they did/did not get.  This is not a big hotel like you would find in NYC or London demanding the hush-hush and secrecy of professional employees.  This is a rinky dinky gambling joint on a small third-world island where the main game for locals in collusion with their friends, seems to be stalking, drugging and raping women.

[Tylergal]

Mishy, the document released by the Dutch does not provide the server data or any mention of it. This is a clear problem with making any conclusions from the client data.

These records were suppposedly pulled from the hard drive of the Sloots computer.  How could they (paulus or Joran) delete or alter records on the hard drive without there being a record of that on the hard drive as well?

Why would our FBI say it was done?

[Tylergal]

hey afternoon monkeys...taking a break from housecleaning...yuck!!!
angie sent me the new post on the so-called letter from natalee!!

.....that has got to be the most ridiculous thing i have read yet...and that stupid julia and her fellow refugee rejects...actually base their beliefs on this crock of shit.......blows my mind!
 
i would like to know how it got a little rock postmark on it???

HI, the CUZ.  Time for a break, huh?  Yes, you need to read that CROCKOFSHIT.