Lively Case Discussion #483 6/29/2006

[AZLady]

Sharon, the NYC Bar article has nothing to do with this case or the civil case that JQK filed.  This article is about the enforcement of foreign arbitral awards.  The only thing in common with this case is the term forum non conveniens.  It does not deal with similar issues.

AZLady -- you are correct. This opinion was not expressed as a result or as a request of JQK's filing and it is not related to the case.

This is a special committee of the NYC bar as far as I can tell -- and their role is to express opinions.

It is an opinion expressed on 'forum non conveniens' -- and when it does and does not apply.

Since it is a pdf, I can't seem to cut and paste the actual 'conclusion'.

I am not a lawyer (nor do I play one on TV) and I was told, by a legal type, that this would give the NYSC judge an 'opinion' to use or site in her decision.

Since I am not a lawyer, I was asking the legal minds on this board for their input -- I had originally posted this on the previous thread. Sorry for any confusion.

AZlady, if you are a legal mind -- I'm very interested in your input as to their conclusion.

Sharon, I'm not the legal authority you seek.  My understanding is that if a case is cited as reference in court, it had darn well better pertain to the matter at hand or it has no bearing on the case.  This is true in any source-based writing, not just legal references or sources.

[AZLady]

Shizaru, this has nothing to do with Jossy's heart.  Jossy is not a liar; he tells the truth that he knows.  While others on Aruba have dissembled and fabricated and prevaricated, Jossy has always been proven to tell the truth as he knows it.  

He made a very clear statement that the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.  He did not offer his opinion; he did not speculate.  He said, unequivocally, the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.

I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he may have wrong information. And I think he does, for the reason I stated.  And also because if proof existed that she was in his apt, that would be such a huge bombshell that some word of it would have leaked a long time ago.

I do not agree.  Jossy is quite clear when he doubts his source and when he does not.  He is a canny and wise newspaper man who can judge his sources.  He is emphatic that the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment.   No, this would not be such a huge bombshell.  Beth stated that she felt Natalee had been there at the VDS home in June 2005.  This was her feeling, and she didn't have evidence of that at the time that she shared with us.  

You have little faith in the Prosecution or the ALE keeping evidence quiet and under wraps, don't you?  Well, we didn't learn about GVC and his possible knowledge of Natalee's disappearance until recently, a year after he had been interviewed several times!  I do not think we know all the evidence or information that is in possession of ALE and prosecution.  Yes, I do think this is a huge bombshell and it is time to explode it.  Happy 4th of July!!!    

[nonesuche]

I just took a look at that “other” message board and some of those people actually think Beth Twitty spends her leisure time reading their posts.  Kind of reminds me of that public service announcement with the egg in a frying pan.  Whduhhellaredeezcrackheadson…

I think we should forget about the "other" message boards (well, at least the "dirty" ones) from this point forward.  We represent the best of the best here.  They are simply jealous of that.  Ever notice that those sites are filled with our "banished ones"?  It rarely happens in reverse of that.  That says someting about the quality of content here.  We should ALL be proud of that fact...

third-

I agree regarding messages to the family as Easy said, is pretty ludicrous. I do however feel it's important to remember that not every pro-family site has no value beyond SM. If that were the case then Klaas wouldn't work so hard to pull posts or articles which appear there.

I also don't mind saying out loud that I wish to heaven we had grannytoad posting here, she has a mind like a steel trap and has contributed much. I know carnut would agree  

but I never wish away all trends of community thought or interaction, much like the approach to marketing a new product - you don't wish away all the competition for it validates your own existence to have competition?

Just IMO and not a negative toward you, but hopefully thought-provoking?

[AZLady]

Sorry, I meant to say I do not think this is a huge bombshell but it's time to explode it.

[AZLady]

Hi None.  What's up?

[sharon]

Klaas ~ if you think that this shouldn't be posted too many times ~ that it should be kept close to the vest ~ please delete this post.  Thanks!

I have to run out ~ but I'll be back in about an hour...

I brought all of Sharon's posts from the last thread on the NYC judge, the ruling, the Hague and NATO escorting Joran over from the last thread.  Thanks for getting my hopes up, Sharon!

You're such a sweetie KatzHome

I don't want to get your hopes up  -- or mine or anyone's -- for nothing.

That's why I posted and asked for help from the 'legal' minds.

We were told early on when the civil suit was filed that there was very little 'precedence' for the decision on this jurisdiction.

I was interested to see what the NYSC judge might be 'researching' for her decision.

As with so much the past 13 months -- this might be more BS.

[thik]

Well let's see, the 4th is a coming,

aren't we STILL waiting for those damn ''Fireworks'' ???

[AZLady]

Klaas ~ if you think that this shouldn't be posted too many times ~ that it should be kept close to the vest ~ please delete this post.  Thanks!

I have to run out ~ but I'll be back in about an hour...

I brought all of Sharon's posts from the last thread on the NYC judge, the ruling, the Hague and NATO escorting Joran over from the last thread.  Thanks for getting my hopes up, Sharon!

You're such a sweetie KatzHome

I don't want to get your hopes up  -- or mine or anyone's -- for nothing.

That's why I posted and asked for help from the 'legal' minds.

We were told early on when the civil suit was filed that there was very little 'precedence' for the decision on this jurisdiction.

I was interested to see what the NYSC judge might be 'researching' for her decision.

As with so much the past 13 months -- this might be more BS.

While there has been little precedence for this decision, I think the judge is most likely researching the Constitutional rights of the family and how the Consitution upholds those rights as opposed to the rights of the state to declare jurisdiction.

[friend of monkeys]

I do believe Jossy when he makes emphatic public statements that cannot be misinterpreted.  He said, twice, on the air, that the police KNOW she was in Joran's apartment that night.  Thus, my follow-up question is how do they know this, what is their evidence, and, inevitably, why isn't Joran under arrest?

because daddy paid for him not to be???

[nonesuche]

Hi None.  What's up?

Hi AZ-

Just typing while my patient is napping  

I have had some email discussion with Sharon around her research and points though, and Chadbourne which is Scott Balber's firm has some really interesting partner profiles which introduce some expertise within the Supreme Courts, international and transnational crime and law, and also international partners with that expertise.

So I have to put in a vote from my uneducated non-lawyer opinion that I think it may be more complex than simply the forum of nonconveniens but hopefully we'll see over time.

[Easywriter]

Shizaru, this has nothing to do with Jossy's heart.  Jossy is not a liar; he tells the truth that he knows.  While others on Aruba have dissembled and fabricated and prevaricated, Jossy has always been proven to tell the truth as he knows it.  

He made a very clear statement that the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.  He did not offer his opinion; he did not speculate.  He said, unequivocally, the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.

I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he may have wrong information. And I think he does, for the reason I stated.  And also because if proof existed that she was in his apt, that would be such a huge bombshell that some word of it would have leaked a long time ago.

When was the first admission that they even went by Joran’s house that night?  There was much speculation about such, but I believe the confirmation came from Joran’s lips during one of his interviews.  That disclosure did not cause ALE to bring him back in for questioning, did it?

My thoughts are that there are things in the declarations that led people to believe they were at Joran’s apartment.  His whole Greta interview miraculously adjusted in a manner to address every rumor we had heard and read of his statements.  There is a question about shoe size, so Joran makes a point of talking about his shoes.  There is a leak about them going by Joran’s apartment, so he brings it up in the interview in an effort to minimize the importance.  There was just one thing after another that was carefully adjusted during that interview in order to account for some contradiction that Joran left dangling in his declarations.

That interview would have been a masterpiece of deception, if anyone did not know the history of this case.

[Shizaru]

Shizaru, this has nothing to do with Jossy's heart.  Jossy is not a liar; he tells the truth that he knows.  While others on Aruba have dissembled and fabricated and prevaricated, Jossy has always been proven to tell the truth as he knows it.  

He made a very clear statement that the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.  He did not offer his opinion; he did not speculate.  He said, unequivocally, the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment that night.

I'm not saying he's a liar, I'm saying he may have wrong information. And I think he does, for the reason I stated.  And also because if proof existed that she was in his apt, that would be such a huge bombshell that some word of it would have leaked a long time ago.

I do not agree.  Jossy is quite clear when he doubts his source and when he does not.  He is a canny and wise newspaper man who can judge his sources.  He is emphatic that the police KNOW Natalee was at Joran's apartment.   No, this would not be such a huge bombshell.  Beth stated that she felt Natalee had been there at the VDS home in June 2005.  This was her feeling, and she didn't have evidence of that at the time that she shared with us.  

You have little faith in the Prosecution or the ALE keeping evidence quiet and under wraps, don't you?  Well, we didn't learn about GVC and his possible knowledge of Natalee's disappearance until recently, a year after he had been interviewed several times!  I do not think we know all the evidence or information that is in possession of ALE and prosecution.  Yes, I do think this is a huge bombshell and it is time to explode it.  Happy 4th of July!!!    

It wouldn't be a bombshell that she was there, but the fact that they could prove it would be.  

I have very little faith on the Prosecution or ALE period.  

I don't think GVC had any knowledge of Natalee's disappearance, I think ALE just arrested him because altho now they would nail Joran if they could, as long as they can't they will try to find alternate suspects to muddy the water.  

Happy 4th to you too.

[Tylergal]

I just took a look at that “other” message board and some of those people actually think Beth Twitty spends her leisure time reading their posts.  Kind of reminds me of that public service announcement with the egg in a frying pan.  Whduhhellaredeezcrackheadson…

I think we should forget about the "other" message boards (well, at least the "dirty" ones) from this point forward.  We represent the best of the best here.  They are simply jealous of that.  Ever notice that those sites are filled with our "banished ones"?  It rarely happens in reverse of that.  That says someting about the quality of content here.  We should ALL be proud of that fact...

Sometimes it is so off the wall that it is amusing and at other times it makes a person question the sanity of some of those people.  I wonder if their friends and co-workers realize what really lurks in the minds and hearts of the evil ones?  Wasn't that an old radio show? lol

You are entering the squeaking door of Intersanctum.

[nonesuche]

Easy-

Come on and admit it, we've met even psychopaths at work in corporate america   I know I have.

That's when I'd like to yell "hey put baby in the corner"   "and quickly"

hope you're feeling better today tyler, good to see you!

[thirdstrike]

I just took a look at that “other” message board and some of those people actually think Beth Twitty spends her leisure time reading their posts.  Kind of reminds me of that public service announcement with the egg in a frying pan.  Whduhhellaredeezcrackheadson…

I think we should forget about the "other" message boards (well, at least the "dirty" ones) from this point forward.  We represent the best of the best here.  They are simply jealous of that.  Ever notice that those sites are filled with our "banished ones"?  It rarely happens in reverse of that.  That says someting about the quality of content here.  We should ALL be proud of that fact...

third-

I agree regarding messages to the family as Easy said, is pretty ludicrous. I do however feel it's important to remember that not every pro-family site has no value beyond SM. If that were the case then Klaas wouldn't work so hard to pull posts or articles which appear there.

I also don't mind saying out loud that I wish to heaven we had grannytoad posting here, she has a mind like a steel trap and has contributed much. I know carnut would agree  

but I never wish away all trends of community thought or interaction, much like the approach to marketing a new product - you don't wish away all the competition for it validates your own existence to have competition?

Just IMO and not a negative toward you, but hopefully thought-provoking?

Nor do I take it anything other then thought provoking.  I know you to have always been respectful, so I would never believe this to be anythign other then that.  So, allow me to retort (as the greatr Samuel L. Jackson once said)...

I don't doubt that there are many purposeful reasons to have "other" sites actively involved in this case...even if/when they have opposing viewpoints.  It's perfectly natural and healthy to have debate.  But, there's a fine line between respectful debate, and abusive opposition.  And, strictly stating my opinion here, many of those said sites practice negativity in their presentations of their "truths".  And, again, speaking for myself, I would not want to be a part of that...now or ever.  Does that make the entire tree bad because of a few apples?  Of course not.  But, I think their reputation precedes them.  And, because of that, those "good" ones will tend to be overlooked...in favor of the many "bad" ones that outnumber them...ya know?

As for the competition factor...of course we need that aspect in order to thrive.  What fun would it be without it?  But, we have to make sure the game is played fairly or else winning isn't as much of a reward as it should be.  When your opponent plays dirty, it disrespects the game.  And, nobody wants to win that way.  I'm just proud of the way SM plays the game...

Thanks for the debate.  It's good to use my brain every once and a while...

[Shizaru]

Easy-

Come on and admit it, we've met even psychopaths at work in corporate america   I know I have.

That's when I'd like to yell "hey put baby in the corner"   "and quickly"

hope you're feeling better today tyler, good to see you!

Nonesuche can you e-mail me

[tcumom]

I also don't mind saying out loud that I wish to heaven we had grannytoad posting here, she has a mind like a steel trap and has contributed much. I know carnut would agree  

Just IMO and not a negative toward you, but hopefully thought-provoking?

Can y'all just invite grannytoad to come over here and visit?

[Tylergal]

None, I don't know about that GrannyToad.  We were told by one poster last night the posters at RWV were all din and sin.  Granny Toad, Anna, DH and I were amongst the long-term posters there, so we might all be considered nuts, flakes and toadies.

[Peaches]

I do believe Jossy when he makes emphatic public statements that cannot be misinterpreted.  He said, twice, on the air, that the police KNOW she was in Joran's apartment that night.  Thus, my follow-up question is how do they know this, what is their evidence, and, inevitably, why isn't Joran under arrest?

because daddy paid for him not to be???

There ya go!

[Tylergal]

I also don't mind saying out loud that I wish to heaven we had grannytoad posting here, she has a mind like a steel trap and has contributed much. I know carnut would agree  

Just IMO and not a negative toward you, but hopefully thought-provoking?

Can y'all just invite grannytoad to come over here and visit?

Granny Toad has refused many invitations and has repeated more than 1000 times that Natalee is in the sesspool.