Natalee Case Discussion #677 8/12 - 8/16/2007

[Dayhiker]

It's insane to criticize the Dutch legal system when the only one describing it is a liar. Unless we have someone on this site with actual knowledge, and experience, it's a smokescreen the legal concepts.

The legal system didn't kill Natalee or prevent the van der sloots from paying for their crimes.

It's all a big lie and story, just like the van der sloot ridiculous stories.

The arrogant and racist Dutch on Aruba screwed this. When they were caught they did what teenagers do, they get angry and blame everyone else.

Van der straaten and Jacobs, cowards.

No van der sloot no justice.

From everything we have witnessed from the Dutch this is a system based on opacity and cowardice. It is purposely opaque so the fats cats running the country can run all over people to maintain their power.

There are no excuses for what we have witnessed in Natalee's case. None whatsoever. Their actions can't be explained away because they make zero sense.

[Rammstein]

I cannot belive you just said that, you believe that there should be no deterrent to keep an inmate from attempting escape?????????????

dude, you are really starting to go off the deep end here

do you know how many Dutch guards get killed or seriously wounded during break out attempts? Or how many cops get killed when hunting down the criminals?

If people who break out of jails do so with violence or commit acts of crime while out of jail then those offenses cause extra jail time.

And people are being deterred by the fact that they will spend extra time in jail from not being released early and from being sent to a maximum security facility with all kinds of restrictions as to visitors and movement.

[robots]

I cannot belive you just said that, you believe that there should be no deterrent to keep an inmate from attempting escape?????????????

dude, you are really starting to go off the deep end here

do you know how many Dutch guards get killed or seriously wounded during break out attempts? Or how many cops get killed when hunting down the criminals?

If people who break out of jails do so with violence or commit acts of crime while out of jail then those offenses cause extra jail time.

And people are being deterred by the fact that they will spend extra time in jail from not being released early and from being sent to a maximum security facility with all kinds of restrictions as to visitors and movement.

seems like no one spends time in jail in aruba or the netherlands

 

[robots]

I wanted to post this in the Ramm link but I can't find it - someone please move it there cause I don't want to be OT in this thread

We’re all seeing the absurdity in Dutch/Aruban Law according to Ramm, at best it’s doublespeak.  With all due respect Ramm, surely you see the stupidity? 
And your confession Ramm to paying a prostitute for sex is quite telling to me. Either you’re trying to desensitize us to sex and how young boys might get caught up in targeting and raping young tourist girls. or you’re giving us a glimpse on your pathetic life – I don’t know. 

yep, paying for sex is something i just dont understand

i just dont understand it

Paying for sex is something stupid teenage boys do when drinking underaged.  OR truly desparate losers with no hope.  Joran VanDerSloot comes to mind - look at that freak loser and imagine he thinks he's rolling into CnC at closing time hoping to pick up a girl -- LOSER - best bet is to slip a narc in her drink and whisk her off to rape her.

yep, i mean really

who wants to have sex with someone that you have to PAY for it

i just dont get it

[mrs. red]

I've come to the conclusion that the Dutch have a perverse view on sex. They see women as sex objects, there only for their sexual gratification.  Look at Amberstamm - the ceasepool of sexual drapravity.
Extropolate that out to Aruba where the Dutch hold control on everything and you can see why they don't take seriously the rape and murder of a young American tourist girl.  It was just young perverted boys doing what they do to become real adult Dutch perverts.
So what a young girl lost her life - collateral damage in the rite of passage of the Dutch perverts.

Hell, they didn't even care when the school girl that was one of their own was raped and all the pictures were taken at the school... anyone remember what I am talking about??

[MuffyBee]

Maybe it's only way they can get it is to pay for it.  Or maybe the only way that they can get what they want the way they want it, because their partner wouldn't do whatever.

[MuffyBee]

I've come to the conclusion that the Dutch have a perverse view on sex. They see women as sex objects, there only for their sexual gratification.  Look at Amberstamm - the ceasepool of sexual drapravity.
Extropolate that out to Aruba where the Dutch hold control on everything and you can see why they don't take seriously the rape and murder of a young American tourist girl.  It was just young perverted boys doing what they do to become real adult Dutch perverts.
So what a young girl lost her life - collateral damage in the rite of passage of the Dutch perverts.

Hell, they didn't even care when the school girl that was one of their own was raped and all the pictures were taken at the school... anyone remember what I am talking about??

No Mrs. Red, I don't remember, but it sounds terrible.

[Shell]

I've come to the conclusion that the Dutch have a perverse view on sex. They see women as sex objects, there only for their sexual gratification.  Look at Amberstamm - the ceasepool of sexual drapravity.
Extropolate that out to Aruba where the Dutch hold control on everything and you can see why they don't take seriously the rape and murder of a young American tourist girl.  It was just young perverted boys doing what they do to become real adult Dutch perverts.
So what a young girl lost her life - collateral damage in the rite of passage of the Dutch perverts.

Hell, they didn't even care when the school girl that was one of their own was raped and all the pictures were taken at the school... anyone remember what I am talking about??

i remember

[MuffyBee]

I wanted to post this in the Ramm link but I can't find it - someone please move it there cause I don't want to be OT in this thread

We’re all seeing the absurdity in Dutch/Aruban Law according to Ramm, at best it’s doublespeak.  With all due respect Ramm, surely you see the stupidity? 
And your confession Ramm to paying a prostitute for sex is quite telling to me. Either you’re trying to desensitize us to sex and how young boys might get caught up in targeting and raping young tourist girls. or you’re giving us a glimpse on your pathetic life – I don’t know. 

yep, paying for sex is something i just dont understand

I don't either.  I googled that and there are various articles on the subject why men pay for sex.  But I didn't read them

i just dont understand it

Paying for sex is something stupid teenage boys do when drinking underaged.  OR truly desparate losers with no hope.  Joran VanDerSloot comes to mind - look at that freak loser and imagine he thinks he's rolling into CnC at closing time hoping to pick up a girl -- LOSER - best bet is to slip a narc in her drink and whisk her off to rape her.

yep, i mean really

who wants to have sex with someone that you have to PAY for it

i just dont get it

[JusticeforNatalee]

In case anyone is interested--found book about Dutch law
at Amazon (text in English)

http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Penal-American-Foreign-Codes/dp/0837700507/ref=sr_1_24/002-9328431-6084025?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1187319371&sr=1-24

Same book might be available at library

[mrs. red]

Well Muffy... a school girl of I think 15 or so was raped by a gang... there was an adult near by even... the "boys" that raped the girl took pictures on their phone I think and the girl was sent away because of harm to HER reputation... women have no standing or place ... and I don't want to understand their system

btw, this happened at school

[Sam]

Hi Monkeys,

Thank you Rammstein for trying to explain the Dutch legal system for us.

Monkeys, regardless of how we feel about the Dutch legal system, I think it is very unfair to attack one of our Monkeys and Ramm is one of us now. Everything I have read from Ramm has supported Natalee and Her family.

In our own country we also have laws we do not agree with Rammstein so please do not let that deter you from posting.

As to prostitution. The worlds oldest profession. It is still legal in this country in some areas I believe. Like Nevada. So if we are going to fight it being allowed in the Netherlands then we should also fight it being allowed in the Nevada.

I know we think we have evolved past that but have we? In a world of drugs and ways to support the drug habits many women choose this for themselves. Regardless of it being legal in Nevada, it is still being practiced all through the USA. Yes even human trafficing. So maybe we should be showing our disgust that in our country their are still those who visit prostitutes.

I frankly would rather those who need it visit prostitutes rather than rape our women and or children. .....

I would also rather have a system where the prison breaks did not endanger the guards. JMHO

[Rammstein]

What bothers me Ramm, is J2K lied as witnesses when they threw the investigation towards the security guards.  They weren't officially suspects for days were they?  How does ALE get around that or do they just ignore it?

well, they had to lie and prevent themselves from being seen as suspects, if they needed to lie for that or make evidence disappear, that would not be a crime according to article 189 of the penal code book.

I don’t see that verbiage in Article 189.

2. these stipulations are not applicable to those who commit these actions to ward of the danger of prosecution of the person him/herself or from direct members of his family in the first degree, inlaws in the first degree or second or third degree family members from the side of from their spouse or former spouse.

You have once again successfully muddied the water and little to further the cause.  There is a distinction between pre-trial investigative tactics and litigation in a criminal case.  That is not un-like the system in the U.S.
This English language Journal of Comparative Law provides an excellent foundation for those interested in the truth.  http://www.ejcl.org/111/art111-6.pdf

where did I say that there was no distinction between pre-trial investigative tactics and litigation? We were discussing the Dutch laws regarding obstructing justice by removing/destroying evidence. This article while highly informative (took the time to read it from front to back) does not touch upon any of the subjects we discussed with regards to lies and obstruction.

[igsigs]

UPDATE

FOB still down

[LilPuma]

Well Muffy... a school girl of I think 15 or so was raped by a gang... there was an adult near by even... the "boys" that raped the girl took pictures on their phone I think and the girl was sent away because of harm to HER reputation... women have no standing or place ... and I don't want to understand their system

btw, this happened at school

I remember this too, Mrs. Red.  Instead of pressing charges, they moved or sent the girl to a different school or something. 

Stopped by hoping there'd be some news.   

[klaasend]

UPDATE

FOB still down

Too bad we don't have someone "inside" FOB2 

[Anna]

The core of the problem is the Dutch emphasis on relativism.

They LITERALLY believe that NOTHING is inherently "wrong", that morality is an abstraction, and that the only real evil lies in "unfairness" or "injustice". Strangely, they don't seem to transfer that belief to matters such as forced prostitution. I guess they believe that "the girl really wants it, deep down inside" and that "every woman is a prostitute wanna-be". Such GARBAGE.

I can't conceive of anything more "unfair" than forcing a 16-year-old girl to get sexually active with old men against her will. Yet that seems to be OK with their "system".

Just what IS a crime in the Dutch culture, anyway? There IS no crime in the sense that we think of. 

SB,
I couldn't agree more.  And by their own estimate by Dutch detectives, one in four is there by force.  They have capitalized on the break up of the Soviet Union to exploit desperate women from that region.  I can think of nothing worse short of death.

SAM,
Yes, a human trafficking ring was just broken up I believe in California but this country is fighting it tooth and nail.  And I think only certain sections of Nevada allow prostitution, not the entire state.

Some of our Nevada monkeys can explain that better I think for I am not certain how it works but thought it only legal in a couple of locations.  And yes, I am certainly outraged that it exists in this day and age anywhere on earth let alone in my country.

I do doubt, however, and highly so that one in four in Nevada is there against her will.   

[oldfart]

HEY

Unless Ramm sits on the highest court Of the Netherlands what is the BFD.
You have one person trying to explain/  interpret their laws to us..

Pick a border town in the U.S   (one side in one state the other in another state)..and try explaining the differences in State Laws  to a victim where borders / jurisdictions cross.

Are any of us going to be 100% correct even .1 % of the time.. on any Law question.
Oh.. we can find stuff.. but does that mean My state can operate w/o a budget? What I read says we cannot ....but we are still paying moneys out .. SO  Go figure that one out and please let me know and our court system.

Our laws are different ... just like state to state many times...
But why beat up the messenger when they are only trying to educate us.. If we cannot check sources then shame on us.

JMO   and Good  NIght Moneys

SeeeYaByeee

[crazybabyborg]

Reading through this thread causes me to think that Aruba has the wrong ad campaign. They should be going with:
"COME TO ARUBA AND DO YOUR CRIME"
featuring: Lies are fine with ALE!
               Investigations are Lame!
                Judges will let you go!
                  Positive Proof required BEFORE going to Court
                                   and the BONUS FEATURE:
                     Having trouble disposing of evidence? ALE HELPS!

[igsigs]

UPDATE

FOB still down

Too bad we don't have someone "inside" FOB2 

We do!

Today was award day! Siddalee was given the Stay Behind award for being the last person on planet earth to consider Glenda a reliable source. She won a gallon of Thunderbird!