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Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/26/2007
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Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/26/2007 (Read 215152 times)
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wreck
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 7781
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #280 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:30:06 PM »
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:23:16 PM
Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004. In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring closure to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force. She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!! There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.
Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges. Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!
A Prosecutor
can't
decide guilt but
CAN
decide whether or not to bring charges (so they
can
essentially decide innocence)
Logged
Auntiem
Monkey Junky Jr.
Offline
Posts: 517
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #281 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:31:09 PM »
Quote from: msmarple on August 19, 2007, 02:06:59 PM
Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.
I think we all GOT that memo a while back.
And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.
Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?
JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...
To investigate these crimes and then to Prosecute the criminals,( besides housing, feeding them & then paying them their stipend for time served) would be an economic burden on the Aruban Public......it would NOT be in their best interest!!!!!
Logged
San
Super Moderator
Monkey Mega Star
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Posts: 15883
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #282 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:31:47 PM »
Quote from: msmarple on August 19, 2007, 02:06:59 PM
Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.
I think we all GOT that memo a while back.
And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.
Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?
JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...
I agree msmarple.
Logged
dennisintn
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 1046
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #283 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:36:12 PM »
Quote from: msmarple on August 19, 2007, 02:06:59 PM
Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.
I think we all GOT that memo a while back.
And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.
Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?
JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...
this is the island of aruba. police and f.b.i. reports are routinely handed over to our equivalent of the chamber of commerce, but a.l.e. can't keep the victim's family updated because it isn't allowed under their laws.
this is the island where police reports to media are o.k.'ed by ahata and ata before they're allowed to be given.
this is the island that makes announcements to other caribbean nations how difficult it is to have one message for the local media and an entirely different one for american media. use your own discretion to figure out what that means.
this is the island that was all helpful and friendly to the victim's family until the two security guards were released from suspicion and the spotlight focused on the privileged and pampered children of "people of influence" on the island.
there are not going to be any new laws passed or old laws enforced that might inconvenience the pursuit of tourists and their money. a certain percentage of these tourists would not come if they couldn't be assured of not being hassled in their pursuit of drugs, prostitution, and other minor sins such as money laundering.
dennisintn
Logged
Auntiem
Monkey Junky Jr.
Offline
Posts: 517
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #284 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:36:32 PM »
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:23:16 PM
Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004. In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring closure to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force. She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!! There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.
Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges. Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!
A Prosecutor
can't
decide guilt but
CAN
decide whether or not to bring charges (so they
can
essentially decide innocence)
They cannot decide innocence.......they must determine IF they have enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury......They are not in this alone.....they are not the "gatherers" of evidence. They work with the Police, the main providers of evidence.
If you want to get technical, and say they can hide evidence as in Aruba...sure they can do that.......that is called CORRUPTION!!!!!!
Logged
wreck
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 7781
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #285 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:44:58 PM »
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:36:32 PM
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:23:16 PM
Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004. In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring closure to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force. She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!! There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.
Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges. Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!
A Prosecutor
can't
decide guilt but
CAN
decide whether or not to bring charges (so they
can
essentially decide innocence)
They cannot decide innocence.......they must determine IF they have enough evidence to bring to a Grand Jury......They are not in this alone.....they are not the "gatherers" of evidence. They work with the Police, the main providers of evidence.
If you want to get technical, and say they can hide evidence as in Aruba...sure they can do that.......that is called CORRUPTION!!!!!!
I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They
do
have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.
Logged
Auntiem
Monkey Junky Jr.
Offline
Posts: 517
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #286 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:46:47 PM »
A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense. In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.
Logged
Rammstein
Scared Monkey
Offline
Posts: 451
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #287 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:48:26 PM »
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:44:58 PM
I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They
do
have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.
they can also decide who to give a favorable plea bargain and who not.
Logged
Rule 208. Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than the question is an answer
wreck
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 7781
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #288 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:49:40 PM »
Quote from: Rammstein on August 19, 2007, 02:48:26 PM
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:44:58 PM
I said they "essentially" can determine innocense. They
do
have the power to decide whether to prosecute or take a case to Grand Jury.
they can also decide who to give a favorable plea bargain and who not.
That is true,
BUT
all plea Bargains must be approved by a judge.
Logged
Auntiem
Monkey Junky Jr.
Offline
Posts: 517
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #289 on:
August 19, 2007, 02:57:24 PM »
You said they essentially can decide whether a suspect is "innocent". They cannot. They must bring him to a Grand Jury if they have substantial evidence. If substantial evidence is not found, the suspect may not be indited at that point in time, however, he is not declared innocent. He can, and MUST be brought in front of a Grand Jury if in the future substantial evidence IS found.
It is the Prosecutor's job to see that suspects accused of a crime are investigated, and when the evidence is substantial their job is to see that the criminal is convicted!!!!
Logged
Auntiem
Monkey Junky Jr.
Offline
Posts: 517
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #290 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:01:26 PM »
You are correct on the Plea bargaining, Wreck.
Now, Ramm is an expert on American Juris Prudence???
Logged
wreck
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 7781
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #291 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:16:39 PM »
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:57:24 PM
You said they essentially can decide whether a suspect is "innocent". They cannot. They must bring him to a Grand Jury if they have substantial evidence. If substantial evidence is not found, the suspect may not be indited at that point in time, however, he is not declared innocent. He can, and MUST be brought in front of a Grand Jury if in the future substantial evidence IS found.
It is the Prosecutor's job to see that suspects accused of a crime are investigated, and when the evidence is substantial their job is to see that the criminal is convicted!!!!
Well, we just disagree then. Yes, a Prosecutor SHOULD prosecute when the evidence is present. In high profile cases, there will be a lot of public scrutiny of their decisions. In many cases of "not so much public awareness" -- decisions to prosecute or not are made every day.
Logged
Hat
Scared Monkey
Offline
Posts: 125
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #292 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:27:22 PM »
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:46:47 PM
A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense. In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.
The People.
Logged
Tamikosmom
Monkey Mega Star
Offline
Posts: 37229
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #293 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:30:57 PM »
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:23:16 PM
Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004. In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring closure to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force. She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!! There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.
Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges. Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!
A Prosecutor
can't
decide guilt but
CAN
decide whether or not to bring charges (so they
can
essentially decide innocence)
In the United States and Canada the prosecutor has a responsibility to act on behalf of the victim. If the prosecutor is acting ethically ... she/he is not going to disregard ANY evidence that will uphold that purpose. It is only when she cannot obtain the required evidence to prosecute the acccused that it is determined that the case cannot go to trial.
Wreck ... as we are being led to believe in regards to Dutch law ... in Canada and the United States ... the prosecutor is not a power unto her/himself.
Disclosure is granted to the family of the victim
and ... if the family believes that the prosecutor did not act in the best interest of the victim by refusing to pursue the case ... her/his decision not to prosecute can be appealed.
I just obtained this info from my hubby's nephew who is a practicing defence attorney ... specializing in criminal law ... in the province of British Columbia, Canada.
Janet
Logged
Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day. I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me. It's not easy. I ask God to help me.
_____
“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
wreck
Monkey All Star Jr.
Offline
Posts: 7781
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #294 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:39:47 PM »
Quote from: Tamikosmom on August 19, 2007, 03:30:57 PM
Quote from: wreck on August 19, 2007, 02:30:06 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:23:16 PM
Judge C. Ellen Connally, retired as a Suprem Court Judge of Ohio in 2004. In 2006, due to the resignation of Cleveland's Chief Prosecutor, Ms. Connally was asked to temporarilly serve as a Special Prosecutor in order to bring closure to four pending death cases involving police and the use of "necessary" or unnecssary force. She was not Acting as a Judge, she was retired........She was not sitting on the bench during this trial!!!! There is no such thing as a Prosecutor/Judge.
Many Prosecutors go on to become Judges. Many also become defense attorneys, as that is far more lucrative!!!!!!
A Prosecutor
can't
decide guilt but
CAN
decide whether or not to bring charges (so they
can
essentially decide innocence)
In the United States and Canada the prosecutor has a responsibility to act on behalf of the victim. If the prosecutor is acting ethically ... she/he is not going to disregard ANY evidence that will uphold that purpose. It is only when she cannot obtain the required evidence to prosecute the acccused that it is determined that the case cannot go to trial.
Wreck ... as we are being led to believe in regards to Dutch law ... in Canada and the United States ... the prosecutor is not a power unto her/himself.
Disclosure is granted to the family of the victim
and ... if the family believes that the prosecutor did not act in the best interest of the victim by refusing to pursue the case ... her/his decision not to prosecute can be appealed.
I just obtained this info from my hubby's nephew who is a practicing defence attorney ... specializing in criminal law ... in the province of British Columbia, Canada.
Janet
Everyone is misunderstanding me. The Prosecutor is legally charged with the responsibility to prosecute where there is evidence of a crime. The prosecutor makes a decision of each and every case whether to prosecute or not. Everyone of these cases is subject to PUBLIC scrutiny of his/hers decisions. In many cases, no one bothers to review these decisons. That is why I keep saying
"ESSENTIALLY".
Logged
klaasend
Administrator
Monkey Mega Star
Offline
Posts: 74276
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #295 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:44:18 PM »
Quote from: Hat on August 19, 2007, 03:27:22 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:46:47 PM
A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense. In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.
The People.
Hat
- great to see you! Yes, you are correct!
Logged
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #296 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:46:13 PM »
Quote from: Hat on August 19, 2007, 03:27:22 PM
Quote from: Auntiem on August 19, 2007, 02:46:47 PM
A Prosecutor is a Government official, who's job it is to bring to Justice the defendant charged with a criminal offense. In other words he/she is the attorney for the victim.
The People.
WELCOME BACK HAT!
Implicit in the prosecutor being the representitive of the people is that the public at large desires to hold perpetrators of crimes accountable, so that the public safety and well being is protected. I really believe that the average Aruban wants that, but I'm not convinced that all in authority place a high priority on it.
Logged
KarmaRoundUp
Monkey Junky
Offline
Posts: 4912
Angels Are True
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #297 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:46:20 PM »
Quote from: dennisintn on August 19, 2007, 02:36:12 PM
Quote from: msmarple on August 19, 2007, 02:06:59 PM
Bottom line about this "public interest" approach to prosecute or not - On Aruba, anything that might be perceived as detrimental to tourism will not be pursued, for that reason.
I think we all GOT that memo a while back.
And I haven't seen any indication that Aruba has taken a proactive approach to eliminating activity that might have led to Natalee's disappearance.
Is the drinking age being enforced? Gambling age? Is anybody working undercover at C&C's (for example) re. drugged drinks? Any arrests for dealing date-rape drugs?
JVDS and Satish should not have been at the Holiday Inn casino, or at C&C's ...
this is the island of aruba. police and f.b.i. reports are routinely handed over to our equivalent of the chamber of commerce, but a.l.e. can't keep the victim's family updated because it isn't allowed under their laws.
this is the island where police reports to media are o.k.'ed by ahata and ata before they're allowed to be given.
this is the island that makes announcements to other caribbean nations how difficult it is to have one message for the local media and an entirely different one for american media. use your own discretion to figure out what that means.
this is the island that was all helpful and friendly to the victim's family until the two security guards were released from suspicion and the spotlight focused on the privileged and pampered children of "people of influence" on the island.
there are not going to be any new laws passed or old laws enforced that might inconvenience the pursuit of tourists and their money. a certain percentage of these tourists would not come if they couldn't be assured of not being hassled in their pursuit of drugs, prostitution, and other minor sins such as money laundering.
dennisintn
Hi Monkeys
I agree,I don't think aruba has done a thing to make sure their once happy island is safe.I don't see any changes at all,except even more ads for tourists to come for a visit.
I do disagree with the above bolded....I don't think ALE or anyone on aruba was ever helpful to Beth and Dave while they conducted their own searches for their beloved daughter.IMO the whole investigating(so called)was focused on the privileged,the pampered...namely Joran and the VDS's and on how to get the focus OFF of this family.Also they tried their best to wrap a cocoon around the VDS.IF they had put as much effort into doing a real and unbiased investigation(put in as much effort as they did to try and cover it up),this would have been over,there would have been justice for Natalee,they would have found Natalee and maybe their tourism monies would'nt have been effected the way it is now.
Logged
Karma Is Coming
Justice for Natalee Holloway!
Rest In Peace Sweet Angels
Help Light Lindsey's Way Home
Hat
Scared Monkey
Offline
Posts: 125
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #298 on:
August 19, 2007, 03:57:01 PM »
Thanks for the greetings.
Sadly victims are often beyond benefit of a court action.
Logged
crazybabyborg
Guest
Re: Natalee Case Discussion #678 8/16 - 8/17/2007
«
Reply #299 on:
August 19, 2007, 04:00:08 PM »
Exactly. There's an Aruban mental block around the concept that AIDING a REAL investigation, and PURSUING the case WHEREVER it honestly leads, is the BEST protection of tourism dollers they can possibly have! What's so hard about that!?
Logged
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=> Religion (discussion and debate)
-----------------------------
The Monkey Lounge
-----------------------------
=> The Monkey Lounge
===> Fashion & Decorating
===> What's Cooking? Recipes
===> Games
=> Inspirational
===> Memorial - Gone but Never Forgotten
===> Gratefulness - Light a Candle in Prayer
===> Inspirational scriptures, songs, stories and prayers
-----------------------------
Natalee Discussions (2005 ARCHIVE)
-----------------------------
=> Natalee Holloway
=> Theory and Speculation
=> Links and References Only
=> Natalee Breaking News Archive
-----------------------------
General Discussions (2005 ARCHIVE)
-----------------------------
=> News Issues
=> Chit Chat
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