Natalee Case Discussion #679 8/26 - 8/31/2007

[klaasend]

Klaas....do you have time to take one of the 'route maps' that you have done and change it to the way codebreaker says things happened so we can get a visual??

Let me see what I can do.

[Nut44x4]

Klaas....do you have time to take one of the 'route maps' that you have done and change it to the way codebreaker says things happened so we can get a visual??

Let me see what I can do.

Thanks Klaas.
Anyone know who this site belongs to?
http://ashvickers.tripod.com/id10.html

[klaasend]

Klaas....do you have time to take one of the 'route maps' that you have done and change it to the way codebreaker says things happened so we can get a visual??

Let me see what I can do.

Thanks Klaas.
Anyone know who this site belongs to?
http://ashvickers.tripod.com/id10.html

Do we know where Flor's house is?

[Nut44x4]

Klaas....do you have time to take one of the 'route maps' that you have done and change it to the way codebreaker says things happened so we can get a visual??

Let me see what I can do.

Thanks Klaas.
Anyone know who this site belongs to?
http://ashvickers.tripod.com/id10.html

Do we know where Flor's house is?

o crap.....I don't

[Nut44x4]

 lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

[Nut44x4]

lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

ummmmmmm...it is a hardware store...brb

[Nut44x4]

lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

ummmmmmm...it is a hardware store...brb

Cumana 69, aruba

[klaasend]

lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

ummmmmmm...it is a hardware store...brb

Cumana 69, aruba

Ok, I'll see if I can find Cumana on my map.

[Nut44x4]

I can't find a map

[Tibrogargan]

I have only heard people apply the term to themselves as being part Black Irish.  I know there was once a political party Black and Tans or something like that, maybe a revolutionary group but also think they figured in as some point with some.

Not sure what it means exactly nor Black Dutch but it may well refer to dark features as you say, not the typical redheaded, fair skinned coloration of the Irish.  Could be the same for the Dutch as well.

Over the years, these things have a way of taking on a life of their own.

And I was shocked!  Shocked I tell ya when that software OSPainter posted yesterday took my ancestors right back to New York!  Yankees!!!  But maybe neighbors of San's ancestors, too, so that part is OK.

Irish History Lesson :

Black and Tans were an official group recruited by the English to fight against the IRA and rebels in Ireland during the home rule upheavals around 1915-1920s.
I have never heard the term Black Irish and there is no one left of my ancestors to ask about it.  I know the very original inhabitants of Ireland were a smaller darker complexioned race and the red haired fair complexion of the now typical Irish and Scots came from their invasions by the Vikings.  I can trace my ancestors in Scotland well back before the days of Mary 1 (Bloody Mary) when they were exiled to Northern Ireland for opposing her Catholic rule.

More on the Black and Tans :

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/black_and_tans.htm

.

[Nut44x4]

Does this help???
http://wikimapia.org/3838263/codemsa_hardware_store

[klaasend]

lives behind "Codemsa".  ??

ummmmmmm...it is a hardware store...brb

Cumana 69, aruba

Ok, I'll see if I can find Cumana on my map.

I believe it's in Oranjestad but I can't find it. 

http://www.caribbean-on-line.com/islands/ar/ormap.shtml

[klaasend]

Does this help???
http://wikimapia.org/3838263/codemsa_hardware_store

Yes but it means I'll have to do 2 maps. 

[Nut44x4]

Does this help???
http://wikimapia.org/3838263/codemsa_hardware_store

Yes but it means I'll have to do 2 maps. 

o lol

[Kat_Gram]

I have only heard people apply the term to themselves as being part Black Irish.  I know there was once a political party Black and Tans or something like that, maybe a revolutionary group but also think they figured in as some point with some.

Not sure what it means exactly nor Black Dutch but it may well refer to dark features as you say, not the typical redheaded, fair skinned coloration of the Irish.  Could be the same for the Dutch as well.

Over the years, these things have a way of taking on a life of their own.

And I was shocked!  Shocked I tell ya when that software OSPainter posted yesterday took my ancestors right back to New York!  Yankees!!!  But maybe neighbors of San's ancestors, too, so that part is OK.

Irish History Lesson :

Black and Tans were an official group recruited by the English to fight against the IRA and rebels in Ireland during the home rule upheavals around 1915-1920s.
I have never heard the term Black Irish and there is no one left of my ancestors to ask about it.  I know the very original inhabitants of Ireland were a smaller darker complexioned race and the red haired fair complexion of the now typical Irish and Scots came from their invasions by the Vikings.  I can trace my ancestors in Scotland well back before the days of Mary 1 (Bloody Mary) when they were exiled to Northern Ireland for opposing her Catholic rule.

More on the Black and Tans :

www.historylearningsite.co.uk/black_and_tans.htm

.

Calling someone " Black Irish " is an insult in these parts.
I've heard it used in the derogatory fashion. ( One family member to another ! ) I did look it up and there are several meanings, and mine was one of them. Friend of mine from Ireland knew the expression and the meaning was the same to him. Cultural thing, I don' t know.  But I digress !  

[Tamikosmom]

http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-black-irish.htm

What is Black Irish?

The term Black Irish is used in the United States, Great Britain, Australia, and Canada to describe individuals of Irish ancestry who have features which are darker than traditional Irish features. Traditional Irish features include blue or green eyes, fair hair, and pale skin. Irish individuals with dark hair and eyes are often referred to as Black Irish and are understood to have Iberian ancestors.

Many people believe that the dark features evident in the Black Irish come from a dramatic event that occurred over 400 years ago. In 1588, over 20 ships carrying members of the Spanish Armada wrecked on the coast of Ireland. Many of the men were killed in the wrecks. The survivors, however, were of great concern to England which was then under the rule of Queen Elizabeth I. The stranded men were put to death by Irish soldiers and, save the handful of men who fled to Scotland, it is unlikely that any of them ever made it past the beaches of Ireland.

Therefore, it is unlikely that members of the Spanish Armada could have made a strong enough genetic contribution to the people of Ireland giving rise to the Black Irish. It is more likely that a group of Spanish soldiers serving under Irish chiefs around the same time stayed in the country long enough to father children. Others believe that the Black Irish are descendants of a people from the Iberian peninsula who migrated to both Ireland and Britain over 2500 years ago. Recent genetic research has supported this claim.

Black Irish comes from social and political biases as well as genetic history. In the 1800s, many Caucasian people believed that the Irish were somehow related to Africans. Africans and individuals of very dark features were held in distaste and considered to be inferior peoples. Therefore, the term Black Irish was born and upheld. In 1862, John Beddoe, an esteemed ethnologist, published Races of Britain in which he described those of Celtic descent as having features similar to those of African descent.

The term Black Scot is also sometimes used to describe a Scottish person with dark features. However, this term is used much less frequently than the term Black Irish. As with many terms relating to race, depending on the descent and sensitivity of the individual to whom you are speaking the term Black Irish can carry a number of different meanings and connotations.

[Nut44x4]

CODEMSA N.V.
Cumana 69
ORANJESTAD
Tel: (297) 5822235
Fax: (297) 5822295

[Anna]

Maybe you could do a Mapquest, LOL!!!

[klaasend]

Does this help???
http://wikimapia.org/3838263/codemsa_hardware_store

Yes but it means I'll have to do 2 maps. 

o lol

Not done yet.  This is hard.  Note, Joran's home is actually off the map and so it 2K's and Flor's house.  Flor lives closer to 2K and north of them.

[2NJSons_Mom]

My mother was fair (milk white complexion), dark haired & brown eyed (Irish/German)....my Dad, fair, blue eyed, toehead to dark (so I'm told, Italian).  They often had discussions when I was young, and Dad would tease Mom asking if she really had a little Spaniard mixed in.  I really know as many Irish with dark hair & eyes as I do blue & blond.  The term Black Irish never came up......I did hear Black Protestant in my youth, but didn't know what it meant until I looked it up today.  Just remembering things heard as a kid....never too late to learn something.