Lively Case Discussion #511 8/12 - 8/14/2006

[cubbeegirl]

Hey Monkeys ... Not quite sure if anyone had figured it out or not, but I was holding off announcing it until I got back from the event.

I was in TX since Friday and was at the TES "Hogs and Horses" event helping TES raise money.

Tim and the TES gang were great. Met some really nice, caring and giving people.

Well, I am sure you had a good time.  That was nice of you to make a trip to help them.  What is a "hogs and horses" event?  If I may ask?

I've never been to one, but being from the south, I would venture to guess rodeo and barbecue.  

Yes, there was barbecue ... it was a vegetarians worst nightmare.




Brisket, brisket and more brisket ...  

mmmmm ..... barbequed brisket! Yummy !

[SunFreak2]

Let's discuss Motive, Method & Opportunity

METHOD: We know the modis operandi is to catch a tourist girl on her last night, slip her a date-rape drug, film the encounter, then leave her on the beach near her hotel.  She wakes up, can't remember what happend, leaves the island.

MOTIVE:  Distain for Americans in general, but especially the ones who come to Aruba to get totally trashed on alcohol, drugs, sun & sex. They want our money, American women's bodies, but not the whole package.

OPPORTUNITY:  Usually its pick up a girl at closing time, drug her and off to the gang-rape.

However, I do think that Natalee was targeted.   We think Natalee encountered GVC when a group of MB'ers went for scuba or ski lessons.  Then Friday night at CnC's, GVC is said to have made some lewd moves towards Natalee while she was dancing with an MB guy. There was a scuffle between the MB kids & the Aruban kids.  Could Joran have been there observing this or at least heard about it?  Joran's big ego kicks in. He has a rivalry with GVC, so he's gonna prove he can get the girl Geoffrey couldn't.   So Joran follows the tried & true plan of drugging her drink.  Only this time it didn't work as usual.  I'm not sure what went wrong, whether she had a bad reaction to the combination of drugs & alcohol, whether she got scrappy and was overly subdued, or the plan was interrupted by either a witness or someone wanting to get in on the action.

What is your take on the motive?

[klaasend]

Let's discuss Motive, Method & Opportunity

METHOD: We know the modis operandi is to catch a tourist girl on her last night, slip her a date-rape drug, film the encounter, then leave her on the beach near her hotel.  She wakes up, can't remember what happend, leaves the island.

MOTIVE:  Distain for Americans in general, but especially the ones who come to Aruba to get totally trashed on alcohol, drugs, sun & sex. They want our money, American women's bodies, but not the whole package.

OPPORTUNITY:  Usually its pick up a girl at closing time, drug her and off to the gang-rape.

However, I do think that Natalee was targeted.   We think Natalee encountered GVC when a group of MB'ers went for scuba or ski lessons.  Then Friday night at CnC's, GVC is said to have made some lewd moves towards Natalee while she was dancing with an MB guy. There was a scuffle between the MB kids & the Aruban kids.  Could Joran have been there observing this or at least heard about it?  Joran's big ego kicks in. He has a rivalry with GVC, so he's gonna prove he can get the girl Geoffrey couldn't.   So Joran follows the tried & true plan of drugging her drink.  Only this time it didn't work as usual.  I'm not sure what went wrong, whether she had a bad reaction to the combination of drugs & alcohol, whether she got scrappy and was overly subdued, or the plan was interrupted by either a witness or someone wanting to get in on the action.

What is your take on the motive?

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

[Anna]

[Yes you are Mrs.Red. It is hard to tell exactly how someone means a comment sometimes. When you are face to face with a person you can more easily tell by their mannerisms how you should take that comment.
I don't think that anyone meant to hurt anyones feelings at all today. Everyones emotions are running high and people get upset sometimes when on another day they would not give it another thought. Am I making any sense? No? Oh, well, I think I need to go take a nice hot bubble bath.

cubbeegirl,
And I seemed to make things worse by trying to point out that sometimes it can be the manner in which we post as well as our words that offend some.  We are likely all guilty of offending someone at some time if we post enough.  

I just get tired of seeing something written in jest taken to heart and some thinking that only others can offend never themselves for we all do it if we are active enough of a forum.  Different people are offended by different things and you can't please everybody all the time, it's impossible unless we guard each and every word and are totally restrained in our posting.  Never again!  

I think that bubble bath sounds better all the time and will head that way myself.  Have some that is Pears scented that I particularly like, that and pink grapefruit.  Will be a toss up between those two.  

[SunFreak2]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

[klaasend]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I think she was pre-chosen

[cubbeegirl]

[Yes you are Mrs.Red. It is hard to tell exactly how someone means a comment sometimes. When you are face to face with a person you can more easily tell by their mannerisms how you should take that comment.
I don't think that anyone meant to hurt anyones feelings at all today. Everyones emotions are running high and people get upset sometimes when on another day they would not give it another thought. Am I making any sense? No? Oh, well, I think I need to go take a nice hot bubble bath.

cubbeegirl,
And I seemed to make things worse by trying to point out that sometimes it can be the manner in which we post as well as our words that offend some.  We are likely all guilty of offending someone at some time if we post enough.  

I just get tired of seeing something written in jest taken to heart and some thinking that only others can offend never themselves for we all do it if we are active enough of a forum.  Different people are offended by different things and you can't please everybody all the time, it's impossible unless we guard each and every word and are totally restrained in our posting.  Never again!  

I think that bubble bath sounds better all the time and will head that way myself.  Have some that is Pears scented that I particularly like, that and pink grapefruit.  Will be a toss up between those two.  

The pink grapefruit sounds yummy and the bubblebath worked wonders for my disposition. And i do agree with you Anna, I doubt that there is one person who has posted here for any length of time who has not either offended or been offended, and most usually the offense was not meant to offend at all.....

[cubbeegirl]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I think she was pre-chosen

I agree.... I think Natalee was targeted.

[SunFreak2]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I think she was pre-chosen

What's your thought on why she was pre-chosen and who chose her?

[klaasend]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I think she was pre-chosen

What's your thought on why she was pre-chosen and who chose her?

I'm torn between a couple scenerios:

1.  She was targeted by Paulus
2.  She was targeted because she was the most vulnerable or naive of the group

[SunFreak2]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I think she was pre-chosen

What's your thought on why she was pre-chosen and who chose her?

I'm torn between a couple scenerios:

1.  She was targeted by Paulus
2.  She was targeted because she was the most vulnerable or naive of the group

Yep, there are many possibilities.  We need more evidence and cold hard facts.    

[SunFreak2]

Mr Sandman is calling my name.  Good nite!

[klaasend]

Nite Sunfreak

[cubbeegirl]

I just can't get that picture of Natalee in the casino with Paulus and I do believe it was him....

Okay, been on a wild search for my missing cell phone and now it is time to call it a night. Sleep well monkeys!

[klaasend]

Nite Cubbie

[Kat_Gram]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I also think it is a lack of respect for women as witnessed by previous behaviour towards them... I can't remember her last name / where she lives. We've done this 20 x times before. I would challenge Deepak to remember any of their faces.
.
I don't believe Natalee per se was targeted.. anyone that could be scammed into the car. Joran and Freddy usually got the girls. Think that anyone of the group of MB girls could have been the target. Joran saw an opportunity of a girl that was not with a male companion and got her away from the herd. Plus the fact that she was friendly towards him.

[Kat_Gram]

And I wanted to add, Joran doesn't seem to be particular. And Deepak, well, he will take anything that is made available to him.
The zero level of empathy for others is a factor. Did Joran look for Natalee where he says he left her, no, he wanted his shoes.
A steady diet of Porn might be part of this. Guys who watch porn.. anyone know if they respect or even like women ?
I am a woman and I have never watched porn.. so I don't know what that is all about.. except to have a fantasy sexual encounter ?
No clue.

[justinsmama]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

Pre-chosen is my guess.

[justinsmama]

I'm not sure if it's so much distain for American's as much as lack of respect for women in general.

Ok, I can appreciate that  line of thinking.  Was Natalee a pre-chosen target or just an unlucky random opportunity?

I also think it is a lack of respect for women as witnessed by previous behaviour towards them... I can't remember her last name / where she lives. We've done this 20 x times before. I would challenge Deepak to remember any of their faces.
.
I don't believe Natalee per se was targeted.. anyone that could be scammed into the car. Joran and Freddy usually got the girls. Think that anyone of the group of MB girls could have been the target. Joran saw an opportunity of a girl that was not with a male companion and got her away from the herd. Plus the fact that she was friendly towards him.

Kat, I'm not convinced that Nat was "friendly toward him". Joran wants all to believe that she came on to him. If I recall correctly, one of the MB's stated Joran was dancing with Nat? How did this come about? Did she actually ask him? Did he ask her? Did he just sidle up to her while she was dancing and join in?

[Mere]

Good morning friends...

I think Joran was interested in the girl sitting next to him....I think Paulus was interested in Natalee.....

I think the targeting started before ever going to C&Cs....

I don't know if GVC had anything to do with Joran deciding on Natalee....the person Joran talked with at the casino might have had one of the MB males to dance with/be with during that last 1/2 hour...and was protected.