File this one under, NOT sure I care....

[mrs. red]

http://www.charter.net/news/read.php?ps=1011&id=14041964&_LT=HOME_LARSDCCLM_UNEWS

Lethal Injection Under Scrutiny
Friday, September 28, 2007 5:20 PM EDT
The Associated Press
By RON WORD Associated Press Writer

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. (AP) — Lethal injection was supposed to be the humane, enlightened way to execute inmates and avoid the pain and the gruesome spectacle of firing squads, the electric chair and the noose.

But now it, too, is under legal attack as cruel and unusual, with the U.S. Supreme Court agreeing this week to hear arguments that lethal injection can cause excruciating pain.

Some supporters of the procedure say the notion that inmates suffer is unproven. And they argue that there is nothing wrong with lethal injection itself; instead, they say, the problem is inadequately trained executioners.

In fact, the man who developed the procedure 30 years ago said it is similar to the simple injections given every day in hospitals.

"What causes it to go wrong is that the protocols aren't carried out properly," said Dr. A. Jay Chapman, former Oklahoma medical examiner.

If an execution is about as simple as an ordinary injection, what, then, can go wrong?

In the three-drug process used by most of the 38 states that practice lethal injection, sodium pentothal is given first as an anesthetic and is supposed to leave the inmate unconscious and unable to feel pain. It is followed by pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the inmate's muscles, and then potassium chloride, which stops the heart.

Foes of capital punishment argue that if the inmate is not properly anesthetized, he could suffer extreme pain without being able to cry out.

That could happen in a number of ways: The executioner could inaccurately calculate the dosage needed for an inmate of a given body weight. Or the executioner could fail to administer the full amount, mix the drug improperly, or wait too long between giving the anesthesia and the lethal substance.

In Missouri, a doctor who participated in dozens of executions was quoted recently as saying he was dyslexic and occasionally altered the amounts of anesthetic given.

A botched execution in Florida last year illustrated another way a lethal injection could go awry: Angel Nieves Diaz needed a rare second dose of chemicals — and the execution took a half-hour, twice as long as normal — after the needles were mistakenly pushed clear through his veins and into the flesh of his arm. That left chemical burns in his arm that opponents say probably caused him extreme pain.

During the process, Diaz appeared to grimace. But he did not specifically say he was suffering. And a state panel was unable to determine if Diaz had been properly sedated or if he felt pain.

There is no direct proof that inmates have suffered while undergoing lethal injection. After all, they don't live to tell about the experience.

But opponents of lethal injection often cite a 2005 study in the British medical journal The Lancet indicating that the anesthetic can wear off before an inmate dies. The study involved 49 U.S. executions. In 21 of the deaths, the study found, inmates were probably conscious when they received the final drug that stops the heart.

Chapman said that he has not seen definitive proof inmates suffer, and that, in any case, the pain would be small.

"Who's to say exactly how much pain that an individual — of varying, different persuasions — can experience with the injection of potassium chloride? But I don't think that in any sense of the word it can be described as excruciating," he said.

One major issue is how to measure the inmate's level of consciousness after the anesthetic is given.

Execution opponents say they believe North Carolina is the only state using a device common in operating rooms to measure brain activity. The state Corrections Department anesthetizes the inmates and waits for their brain activity to dip to a level indicating they are sedated before pushing in the lethal drug.

"It's worked well for us as a tool" in the two executions in which it has been used, department spokesman Keith Acree said of the bispectral index monitor.

Fordham Law School professor Deborah Denno said the problems she sees with executions cannot be easily fixed with technology.

"You need to get better people, get better drugs and have more scrutiny of the process," said Denno, who frequently testifies about capital punishment.

Similarly, Richard Dieter, executive director of the Washington-based Death Penalty Information Center, which opposes executions, said that lethal injection is essentially "a medical procedure being performed by non-medical persons. These are drugs and procedures borrowed from operating rooms."

But many states find it hard to get doctors to take part because the American Medical Association's code of ethics bars members from participating in executions.

Chapman scoffed at the idea that executioners need to go to medical school to do the job right, saying people could easily be trained. And he suggested that switching to other drugs would not make any difference.

"The new drugs are simply just replays of the old ones," he said.

Denno said states have been hesitant to look at alternative chemicals, because they like to be able to argue that all the other states are using the same mixtures. "There is safety in numbers," she said.

At least a dozen states that use lethal injection have executions on hold because of legal challenges to the procedure. The Supreme Court stepped into the debate this week when it agreed to hear a case from Kentucky.

Denno said she hopes the high court will provide direction to states on what changes are needed to ensure the process is constitutional.

"The best that could happen is that they come up with a standard and have states follow that," she said.

[pdh3]

I'm positive this is not what our ForeFathers would have considered cruel and unusual punishment. But hey....we can always go back to hangings and firing squads like they used back then, or drag out Old Sparky again.
There is no way to give every Death Row inmate a perfect, painless death. And that begs the question - do they even deserve one? All we can do is try to be more humane to these inmates than they were to their victims.

[mrs. red]

I'm positive this is not what our ForeFathers would have considered cruel and unusual punishment. But hey....we can always go back to hangings and firing squads like they used back then, or drag out Old Sparky again.
There is no way to give every Death Row inmate a perfect, painless death. And that begs the question - do they even deserve one? All we can do is try to be more humane to these inmates than they were to their victims.

You hit the nail on the head with your question... why do they deserve one, IMO...

what wasn't inhumane about how Jessica Lundsford died?  why should we worry about if Couey is in pain? 

[LouiseVargas]

"In the three-drug process used by most of the 38 states that practice lethal injection, sodium pentothal is given first as an anesthetic and is supposed to leave the inmate unconscious and unable to feel pain. It is followed by pancuronium bromide, which paralyzes the inmate's muscles, and then potassium chloride, which stops the heart."

Good lord, give me a f-ing break.

I have put four cats to sleep. I was right there witnessing the whole thing. There was no need for three separate injections. The Vet had a small syringe ready with two inches of pink fluid. When I was ready, he slowly injected the solution. It took five seconds and the cats were dead before the syringe was emptied.

The key is to have the correct amount which should be calculated according to the inmate's weight. I guess it's hard to hire a good executioner these days.

[kissyface]

I was always partial to the guillotine!!!  Off with their heads!

[SarahD]

I am always amazed when people are more concerned with the feelings of the murderer who brutally butched a person without the benefit of judge/jury, then they are with the fact this murdered didn't care about the feelings of their victim.

In my opinion, cruel and unusual is what the murdered did to their victim.   Justice would be killing the murderer in the same manner he/she killed their victim.

I think the death row inmates are lucky to get lethal injections.  It's more humane then the treatment they dished out.

[SarahD]

I'm positive this is not what our ForeFathers would have considered cruel and unusual punishment. But hey....we can always go back to hangings and firing squads like they used back then, or drag out Old Sparky again.
There is no way to give every Death Row inmate a perfect, painless death. And that begs the question - do they even deserve one? All we can do is try to be more humane to these inmates than they were to their victims.

You hit the nail on the head with your question... why do they deserve one, IMO...

what wasn't inhumane about how Jessica Lundsford died?  why should we worry about if Couey is in pain? 

BRAVO!!

[LouiseVargas]

Every death row inmate deserves a humane death and burial because that is how a civilized society operates.

[SarahD]

Every death row inmate deserves a humane death and burial because that is how a civilized society operates.

It's just a shame that they (the murderers) didn't feel that much compassion for their victims.   After reading some of the brutal ways killers treat their victims, I find it a laugh that anyone would care if the lethal injection hurts them.  I know I don't care if it does.

[mrs. red]

Every death row inmate deserves a humane death and burial because that is how a civilized society operates.

It's just a shame that they (the murderers) didn't feel that much compassion for their victims.   After reading some of the brutal ways killers treat their victims, I find it a laugh that anyone would care if the lethal injection hurts them.  I know I don't care if it does.

I personally think that the murderers should be given the exact treatment they give thier victims.  I also find it beyond astonishing when "activists", usually actors, step up and demand that murderers be set free.  Example: Tookie Williams, who was one of the founders of the gang the CRIPS ... (or Bloods, can't remember which) how many deaths has he caused directly and indirectly... and yet more of these so-called enlightened people will defend him while looking down thier noses at the victim's families...

have to shake my head, I don't get it.

[LouiseVargas]

You wrote: "I personally think that the murderers should be given the exact treatment they give their victims." 

Don't forget we are still a civilized society. We cannot take a rapist murderer and rape him and then murder him. If we did, we would be barbarians.

[mrs. red]

You wrote: "I personally think that the murderers should be given the exact treatment they give their victims." 

Don't forget we are still a civilized society. We cannot take a rapist murderer and rape him and then murder him. If we did, we would be barbarians.

Perhaps I am a barbarian, because I don't believe that murderers and rapists deserve any thing better than what they give thier victims.

[LouiseVargas]

You wrote: "I personally think that the murderers should be given the exact treatment they give their victims." 

Don't forget we are still a civilized society. We cannot take a rapist murderer and rape him and then murder him. If we did, we would be barbarians.

Perhaps I am a barbarian, because I don't believe that murderers and rapists deserve any thing better than what they give thier victims.

Mrs.Red, you said you are a barbarian, not I.

[kissyface]

Well then Louise, I must be a barbarian too.  I did extensive research on the death penalty for my college thesis paper and I am an even stronger supporter of it now than I ever was.  I agree with Mrs. Red.  Eye for an eye.  Barbaric or not, the criminals should get the same treatment.  Why should we "humanely" execute them?  For what reason do they deserve any kind of humane treatment?  If something happened to my child the way some of these crimes against children have been committed, I would fight as hard as I can to make sure the perpetrator got the harshest punishment possible.  And someone who rapes, murders and dismembers a body deserves nothing less than the same.  I like to call it EQUAL TREATMENT.  Too bad it is never equal.  Dying by injection is nothing compared to the unspeakable tortures that occur during attacks and murders.  I don't think it is up to us to decide the punishment.  I think the family members of the victims should choose the punishment.  Then lets see how many repeat offenders we get.  Mrs. Red, i'm with ya!!!

[LouiseVargas]

Mrs.Red and Kissyface,

First of all, I never called you barbarians. Mrs.Red said she was a barbarian.

I totally agree with you both. An eye for an eye. I also am for the harshest punishment possible.

But, as far as I know we have two methods of punishment in this country - lethal injection and the electric chair. I'm not sure if the latter is still used. I'm not sure if some States still use hanging. The bottom line is that the US policy is to humanely execute them. We don't rape or murder or dismember a prisoner.

Kissy, I'm very impressed that you wrote a thesis on the death penalty. I've always been fascinated by this subject.

I've seen on TV how the execution system works. The prisoner gets a meal of his choice. They can talk to a religious person of their choice. I see the long walk to the death chamber. The prisoner is almost like a celebrity with all the attention focused on him. People outside the prison protesting the execution. Getting situated in the chair with their head and limbs in restraints. I wonder what the prisoner is thinking as the crime happened so long ago. I think the prisoner is in a state of shock and feels close to God. Birth and death are the closest we can get to God, since God gives and God takes away. And I don't know if the prisoner goes to hell or if he has confessed to God his regrets for what he did, and thus can enter heaven.

I don't know if there is a heaven or a hell but we go somewhere else when we die. And I believe we are all equal when we are born and when we die.

[kissyface]

Thank you Louise.  I did not mean that you were calling anyone a barbarian.  I just get very excited when discussing this issue.  I know we have our "system" but if it were up to me, there would still be public stonings, hangings, firing squads, etc.  I hope you did not take offense.  I just feel that our justice system serves justice more to the criminal than the vicitms.  I have seen that in my own life.  It just saddens me that we pay for these sick individuals to live better than some regular people get to by working hard.  I don't understand why they should have rights in prison that some people cannot even afford to have even though they are good upstanding citizens who aren't involved in criminal activity.  I get really upset that someone who has been convicted of a crime gets to eat, has educational opportunities, and is encouraged and allowed to work and make money in prison.  Why should they have tv's and ping pong tables?  How is that punishment?  Being locked up should not be about fun or opportunity.  It should be about doing hard time.  Hard time.  There is an oxymoron if I ever saw one.  Prisoners have too many rights and too much freedom.  Jails were originally built to only house these offenders, not to provide them with everything we give them now.  It just sickens me that someone can take a life but is given all kinds of chances to participate in re-hab programs and self-betterment programs and they can even get a college degree (which we are paying for).  And why the h*ll should they be allowed to have tv?  Why should they have any entertainment at all?  How is this "hard time"?  I need to wrap this up now as I could go on forever about the way I feel.  A death sentence has become an extended paid vacation for these inmates and I feel that they should not have any rights.  Put them in a cell with a toilet and that's it.  They don't deserve a bed, a blanket, a pillow or anything else comforting.  You kill someone, you should get the same.  I know the system doesn't support that but it is how it should be treated.  IMO.