Natalee Case Discussion #688 11/2 -11/13/07

[Rammstein]

So wheres the source that the court said his arrest was unfounded? Thats a bunch of BS!! Im not buying your BS as I have read enough from Dutch Law experts and they are all amazed as we are. The DA did make there case for the house to be fully searched but the Judge changed that on the spot the day of the search. It's obvious they threw all the rules out the window when they illegally tried to frame two innocent men and immediately searched there clothes,home and cars. Not collecting evidence from murder suspects is a for sure way to kill a investigation and they succeeded. In the Judges defence I dint think they acted alone. They were probably paid off or influenced by the Aruban Govt.

No doubt about it..These two judges killed the Investigation along with the Paul's friends and the rest of the cover up team. All to save there precious tourism as nothing bad can ever happen to a tourist in Aruba.

The Dutch quality newspaper Elsevier quoted the courts ruling as follows:

Het Arubaanse hof oordeelt nu dat de aanhouding van Van der Sloot wel ‘ongegrond is gebleken, maar niet onrechtmatig'.

The Aruban court now ruled that the arrest of van der Sloot had "shown to be unfounded, it was not illegitimate/unlawful".

An unfounded arrest should certainly be illegal.  Otherwise, people could be thrown in jail for no reason at all.  But I guess that's what you are saying is legal.

I sure don't want to ever hear anything more about the laws and practices of this country ever, ever again! 

that may be true in the US but not in the Netherlands. In the Netherlands one is arrested on the suspicion only. That is also why no names are made public by the police or in the media of people arrested, because it is known that innocent people are arrested when there is a reasonable suspicion.

For example, 2 sets of parents were arrested in the past few months who's children had died at such an early age and under such circumstances that the police immediately arrested both sets of parents. One set of parents were released after 1 or 2 days when autopsy proved natural causes for the child death. In the other case autopsy proved the child had been killed by force and the father admitted to having killed the child, the mother was released as there was no evidence she had anything to do with her husbands actions towards the child.

Now the first set of parents is able to get compensation for time spent in jail, their arrest was legal based on the suspicion that the child may not have died of natural causes, even though autopsy later proved the suspicions were unfounded.

[Rammstein]

What was illegitimate/unlawful was the arrest of the 2 security guards.

if they believed/had indications that the guards had stolen from guests rooms then the arrest could have been lawful, one can be arrested on suspicion of more than just 1 criminal act.

[Rammstein]

from Corruption and Collusion/SM

DUTCH JUDGES RELEASE SUSPECTS FROM GIVING FURTHER TESTIMONY

The Dutch judges from Curacao also share culpability in ignoring these statements by the three suspects. One in particular was Judge Robert “Bob” Smid who is reported to be a friend of Paulus Van Der Sloot, and had even stayed at his home while visiting the island. On August 30, 2005 Judge Smid issued a ruling that Joran should be held another 30 days, flew back to Curacao and immediately faxed in a reversal of his ruling. Two and a half weeks later Joran Van Der Sloot and the Kalpoe brothers were all released from giving further testimony in the case.

On September 3, 2005 Joran Van der Sloot was released from police custody and fled to Holland. Drawing on an obscure Dutch judgement in another case, the judge ruled that Joran’s schoolwork was apparently more important than giving any further testimony in the Natalee Holloway case, even though he and the Kalpoe brothers disagree on key points about what happened the night Natalee disappeared.

first of all his name is Rick Smid, not Bob/Robert.

And again, he did not reverse his ruling, Joran's lawyer had filed a motion (separate motion) to release his client so that he could continue his education. Judge Smid ruled that his was acceptable as long as Joran complied with certain demands (like letting know where he lives and co-operating with the police and always appear to be questioned when asked).

Ramm

This sure didn't happen, Joran co-operating to be re-questioned. As a matter of fact we were all waiting for this in Dec. 2005, then we were told that they refused to be re-questioned. Why is that?

because Joran's lawyer did not just write the above request, he also appealed the original decision of Judge Smid to hold Joran for 30 more days. The appeal was held by a three judge panel and they decided that Judge Smid did not uphold the law/followed jurisprudence by extending Joran's detention with 30 days.

This meant that Joran was a free man and the decision Judge Smid made from Curacao (the one to release Joran with the conditions he had to submit for questioning whenever asked) was voided because it was made based on the original decision of Judge Smid to hold Joran in jail for 30 more days. The one ruling cannot stand without the other one and as the extension of Joran's detention was lifted by the appeals court Joran could not be forced to come into the station to be questioned.

Ramm ... according to Joran's attorney ... Antonio Carlo ... the reason Joran could not be brought in for questioning in December, 2005 was because this condition of release was lifted three weeks  after his release.

Janet

++++++++++++++++


WSFA 12 News
September 27, 2005

http://www.wsfa.com/Global/story.asp?S=3857796&nav=0RdEeaxB

“An Aruban court has ruled that three suspects in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway can remain free without conditions.”

“Wednesday's ruling overturned an earlier decision that restricted the suspects' travel and required them to remain available to investigators. The appeals court said there was a "lack of sufficient grounds and serious suspicions" to keep the restrictions on the three men. Joran van der Sloot and two Surinamese brothers -- Deepak and Satish Kalpoe -- are suspects in the May 30 disappearance of the Alabama teen. They were released from jail on September 3rd on the condition they remain available for questioning.


Joran Van der Sloot - No Further Questioning
Antonio Carlo
Live and Direct - Jane Velez-Mitchell
MSNBC - December 30, 2005

ANTONIO CARLO, JORAN VAN DER SLOOT`S ATTORNEY: OK, the information that I can provide at this time is that my client, under the Aruban law, cannot be obligated to come before the (INAUDIBLE) prosecutor to answer questions because he has now -- he has been released without any conditions. So under Aruban -- under Aruban law, he cannot be obligated to be brought forth to answer questions.

yes, but by the appeals court, not Judge Rick Smid. A person who has been released from detention as a suspect can only be questioned again voluntarily.

[Rammstein]

What was illegitimate/unlawful was the arrest of the 2 security guards.

It sure was.  It was based solely on the statements of those with every reason to lie about this.  Yet statemetns were ignored from those with no reason to lie about who was last seen with Natalee.

Isn't it absolutely horrific that this is legal and there was no judicial nor prosecutorial misconduct in that?

Evidently judges and prosecutors can pick and chose whom to believe and pretend all others just do not exist.  And all within the frame work of the law! 

in the Netherlands you do not need a judges approval to arrest someone. That kind of supervision is set for somewhat later in the process of the 116 days maximum detention as a suspect.

[Rammstein]

I think it is not really the Dutch legal system that is the problem here or that gave breaks to Joran's father/Joran, it is the Aruban DA's office and the ALE who have let down Natalee something awful.

ramm, i think you are totally correct here.  any system is only as good as the people running it. 
dennisintn
[/quote]

yes, and even though we are putting money in it to improve the situation (another 61 million florins has just been announced to bolster the quality of the police/to improve the police force) we have no say in the running of this autonomous function of the Aruban government.

[Rammstein]

Does Ramm even find it strange that Mr. King (Vocking) was there also?  Paulus and King were the 2 that made Matthews go thru hell.  It was stated that Paulus helped him then, so now King was going to help him out with the Natalee case.  Heck King even stayed there, or was it Paulus stayed at their house.  Noooooooo, nothing is crooked here at all.

Strange? Perhaps, but if he was a personal friend than he could have been there solely for supporting Anita and Paul.

And Matthews thru hell? Strange that you feel that criminal did not cause his own hell by his actions. It is Matthews who is the criminal and he is the one who put King though hell, not the other way around. And help can also be in the form of legal advice or just friendship/support.

Matthews is a man who deserves no sympathy IMHO.

[Rammstein]

Quote from Hotshot:

Does Ramm even find it strange that Mr. King (Vocking) was there also?  Paulus and King were the 2 that made Matthews go thru hell.  It was stated that Paulus helped him then, so now King was going to help him out with the Natalee case.  Heck King even stayed there, or was it Paulus stayed at their house.  Noooooooo, nothing is crooked here at all.


Hotshot,

A few days back, Ramm claimed that it was Matthews who violated the human rights of Vocking!  Of course, we promptly supplied him posts showing to the contrary and then he changed it to it was his opinion this happened.  Matthews is the one that the court ruled was treated in an inhumane manner and it is Vocking who changed his name to hide from the international scandal of all this, not Matthews.

Ramm said Matthews was acting like an animal so where is all that compassion and therapy and stuff he talks about?  Keeping a human being in solitary confinement for over two years would make anybody behave like an animal I would think especially in conditions described by the court.

So he did discuss this and defended Vocking because he was injured fighting with Matthews.

And of course, we know who was in charge of maintaining the evidence in Matthews case, Paulus van der Sloot and yet Matthews was still able to win a small monetary award and certainly a moral victory.  That is amazing considering how Paulus works the system.

MO
.

did you? Vocking was not injured in fighting with Matthews, Matthews beat this man skull in, that is what happened.

Also, Matthews was put in his place by the European Court of Human Rights (in which Paul has no say whatsoever) and he was only given a bit of money because for a few months his cell was leaking. Re-read my posts and you will find that I never changed my mind about Matthews, he got what was coming to him for his criminal acts and the facts clearly show that.

[Rammstein]

Quote from Hotshot:

Does Ramm even find it strange that Mr. King (Vocking) was there also?  Paulus and King were the 2 that made Matthews go thru hell.  It was stated that Paulus helped him then, so now King was going to help him out with the Natalee case.  Heck King even stayed there, or was it Paulus stayed at their house.  Noooooooo, nothing is crooked here at all.


Hotshot,

A few days back, Ramm claimed that it was Matthews who violated the human rights of Vocking!  Of course, we promptly supplied him posts showing to the contrary and then he changed it to it was his opinion this happened.  Matthews is the one that the court ruled was treated in an inhumane manner and it is Vocking who changed his name to hide from the international scandal of all this, not Matthews.

Ramm said Matthews was acting like an animal so where is all that compassion and therapy and stuff he talks about?  Keeping a human being in solitary confinement for over two years would make anybody behave like an animal I would think especially in conditions described by the court.

So he did discuss this and defended Vocking because he was injured fighting with Matthews.

And of course, we know who was in charge of maintaining the evidence in Matthews case, Paulus van der Sloot and yet Matthews was still able to win a small monetary award and certainly a moral victory.  That is amazing considering how Paulus works the system.

MO
.

I hear you Anna, and you are so right there.  I went to interview the Matthews, and animal he is not.  He did indeed recieve a monetary award, and was the first person to be righted by some "high" court in the Netherlands, (forgot the name).  But yes, it was Paulus who helped King.  Oh my the stories I heard from them were ugly, just plain ugly.  I actually sat there and cried as to what they did to alex.  Did you know that while alex was lying unconscience on the jail cell floor from them beating him, someone took pics, and later sent them to them in Rhode Island?  OMG, they have those pics in a safe place, and yes, I did see them.

1. he was not awarded money by a Dutch court but by a European court.
2. he lost his entire case in that court except for the leak in his roof, the fact that the European court frowns on prolonged solitary confinement and that he had to endure pain to get to the outside yard and for that he was only awarded a small sum of money
3. did he also show you the pictures of the man he almost beat to death? Or the guards that he injured?
Matthews lost his case in all but 1 part in front of the human rights court and he was certainly not the first person to be righted by this court as you put it. This court regularly awards money to people who's human rights have been injured.

From the report of the court one can read:

Use of physical force

The Court could not find that the force used against the applicant in preventing or terminating violent episodes had gone beyond what was strictly necessary in the circumstances. Neither had the applicant satisfied the Court that the wounds on his ankles were the inevitable consequence of the use of fetters. The Court further accepted that the use of fetters was eventually discontinued in view of those injuries. The Court therefore found no violation of Article 3 as regards the use of physical force against the applicant and the injuries allegedly resulting from the use of fetters.

[Rammstein]

Hotshots,

I saw a photo once of a black man lying on a jail cell floor and I always wondered if he was dead.  I think it may have been Matthews, however, so guess he wasn't.  Obviously beaten.

Yes, I was also told they used to drug him so he couldn't fight back and I wondered if that is where these PIMPS got the idea to drug these young tourist girls on their last night in Aruba.

.

the court however did not find these pictures evidence of anything.

[Rammstein]

Absolutely disgusting what they did to Mr.Matthews. It is also Rammstein's most passionate subject besides the anti-boycott sites and it makes me wonder why that is. He comes fighting mad and uses obscenities when these two issues are discussed. He was warned several times at the language he used reffering to Fred Taube and Mr.Matthews. Sounds personal IMO

why? The man committed 2 violent crimes for which he was detained, when he was almost ready to be released the violently bashed a mans skull in. Even if it had been a fight what chance in hell did mr. Vocking have when preyed upon by a trained kickboxer?

And mr. Taub does very worthwhile things on his website, yet he should not misquote and use incorrect data to make up that one story about Aruba.

And I have been warned when about language referring to Taub or Matthews?

And show me the anti-boycott sites I am passionate about? If you would be so kind.

[Rammstein]

Hotshots,

I saw a photo once of a black man lying on a jail cell floor and I always wondered if he was dead.  I think it may have been Matthews, however, so guess he wasn't.  Obviously beaten.

Yes, I was also told they used to drug him so he couldn't fight back and I wondered if that is where these PIMPS got the idea to drug these young tourist girls on their last night in Aruba.

.

Yup, not only did they drug him, but then they put a bag over his head, and smacked him to the floor.  once on the floor, they beat him to a pulp.  Only to wake up in the solitary cell, that had not roof ect....

the evidence has shown otherwise, he lost that part of his case.

[MumInOhio]

Maybe it's me, but doesn't anyone else think it's odd that 6/18 near confession date is exactly one week after the retracted confession on or about 6/10 or 6/11?  But then, what hasn't been odd about this whole case.

Thanks, San & Klaasend.

That's why I always said it was Deepak who confessed.  Joran never did.

These two dates keep popping up over and over again. I wonder if one is a confession by Deepak and the other Joran's 'near confession'.

I wonder when the evidence collected was sent to the NFI?  Or, was it handled locally? 

What do all the recordings show?  Who else was being interviewed?

June 17th 2005....Steve Croes arrested

statements per Dr Phil court documents
Sander Gottenbos
Freddy Arambatzis
Steve Croes
Jamie Carrasquilla
Koen Gottenbos

June 18th 2005....
statements per Dr Phil court documents
Maria Thiel?
Lucia Thiel?
Paulus van der Sloot
Steve Croes
Aaron Jean Marc-Wyndham Security guard

June 18th 2005
Joran/Steve Croes..face to face

Someone was murdered or committed suicide also on the 18th. IIRC I think ******* posted about it. Will keep looking as I'm sure there's more.

[Rammstein]

Absolutely disgusting what they did to Mr.Matthews. It is also Rammstein's most passionate subject besides the anti-boycott sites and it makes me wonder why that is. He comes fighting mad and uses obscenities when these two issues are discussed. Sounds personal IMO

imho, rammstein does take it personally.  he loves holland and respects and trusts the dutch judicial system.  he also trusts dutch newspapers and dutch politicians and officials to be honest and trustworthy as they should be.  he is having a very difficult time understanding and believing how perverted the aruban culture has become, and it is anathema to him that the island bureaucracy has conspired to cover up the unwarranted death and disappearance of a young girl.  he's a true dutch patriot and i admire that, and i think he's totally honest in what he says.  that goes a long way with me.  i do see changes in his attitude as this drags on and he's been forced to see aruba as it really is.  just my opinion, but there it is.

just the opposite is people like renfro and mip6. in a better world, things like them would be fed to rabid dogs and the dogs then euthanized.
dennisintn

that is not it, I am sure mr. Matthews suffered with back pains and it is unfathomable that he had such a poor cell etc.

However, HE is the one to blame for being incarcerated in the first place. He would have been out after weeks if it weren't for his attempted murder on mr. Vocking (you know, when he beat a defenseless man's skull in?). Mr. Matthews behavior is the grounds for most of what happened to him. Was he beaten in jail? Perhaps, but according to all courts only to put an end to violent fits of mr. Matthews and according to all courts there was only the necessary amount of force used against him as was needed in the situation.

again, I am ashamed that somewhere in the Kingdom any prisoner's rights are violated and mr. Matthews already got compensated by a considerably shortened sentence because the court also thought he deserved compensation for that in some way.

What I am disgusted about in Matthews is how he uses Natalee as a "means" to his goals. Matthews is a convicted (rightly as has been determined by all the courts) violent criminal who should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as such a wonderful person as Natalee was. Protest his case all he wants, he even has some grounds for being disgruntled but he does not deserve to be mentioned alongside such a innocent woman as Natalee because he gave up that right when he committed his violent acts.

[Rammstein]

dennis,
I am patriotic and love my country, too.  I would love to think it is perfect but as adults we know better.  We try to make it better by exposing what is wrong.  Case in point where the system broke down, this Stacey Peterson disappearance.  The husband should have been investigated after the suspicious death of his last wife but he wasn't.  We need to do something to keep that from happening when LE are involved in things like this.

All systems break down and people are corruptible.  I don't want to ever defend wrong no matter who does it.  Somebody dropped the ball with Drew Peterson in my opinion and I want to see if there is anything anybody can do to keep it from happening again, not praise a system that did it.

There is only one human being that I believe is infallible and then in matters only of faith and that's the Pope.

But Anna, I certainly do not believe my country is perfect. It is flawed in a lot of ways. Even our law system is far from being perfect, but I think no law system is perfect, that is impossible as it is being done by human beings. I do however think the Dutch legal system is always ready to accept ways to make it better and to not be afraid to investigate and correct it's own faults.

People get jailed here when they are innocent and luckily our supreme court is there for them (they take any case brought before them) and there are numerous ways even after a person has gone through the entire legal system to get justice for  an individual.

There is even a fixed organization that investigates miscarriages of justice formed by the government.

We are not perfect, I have no illusions that the Netherlands will ever be perfect, but in our country our legal system works because, though flawed as humans, almost all the people who work to get justice in the Netherlands do so with a pure heart and for the cause of justice (there are always exceptions but they are few and far between).

[Rammstein]

So the kids have this example set for them of how to render a person helpless.  Sounds like they are sociopaths themselves.  And one reason they kept him in solitary was so he couldn't tell anybody what they were doing to him.

Exactly!  The wife (Arianna) did get to see him, but even then, she got threatened too, and only got to see him on certain occasions.  He had businesses in aruba, and the threat was to take them away, and they did so.  One was with a telecomunication bussiness.  Not sure if it was Digicell or not, she wouldn't disclose that to me.  The other was a bar, that got handed over to an ex-GF of his, who framed him.   Oh it just goes on and on.  I'll have to look for that paperwork I took home with me on all of this.  She did make it clear though, that they wanted Beth, and Dave to know the whole story, and that it will be alot of BS, to get ready for it all.  It tooks months of them re-writing documents to make everyones stories match to their liking is how she put it. 

he was kept in solitary because he wouldn't stop being violent, as has been proved to even the Human Rights court.

And again, he had access to his lawyer who could make his plight known.

[Rammstein]

To explain more, it took months of the LE re-writing documents to make all stories match, is what I meant to say........ 

Hey, I have to get up at 5am, I am going to bed.  I will continue this in the am when I wake up.  Thanks for the chat anna, and *******.  Ramm is gonna be pissed when he wakes up.   

sorry to disappoint you but your opinions do not get me "pissed". Mr. Matthews shouldn't have almost beaten to death Ben Vocking, that is the reason he spent so long in jail, that was one of the reasons he was in solitary.

[Buckeye]

HMI ???

The only professed organizations that I know of are the Strategic Communication Task Force (with the stated objective to counter Aruban criticism) and AHATA (with the stated objective to support tourism).

I have followed this story since day one.  I read both "the good" and "the bad" sites.  I scan news/comments from Curacao, the Netherlands, Bonaire, etc.

I have never, in my life, ever professed or believed something because someone directed me to do so.

Support for Natalee "the American girl", arouse from many, some of us with no known ties, whatsoever.

The only organized propaganda, by virtue of their own stated objectives, comes from Aruba. Do I believe these groups have paid posters and agendas??  Absolutely!!!  That is the purpose of the organization.

The rest of us are not organized.  We are the little people, seeking justice because there is fear that this situation could happen again.  The next time it could be someone I know personally.  No highschool graduate should just disappear.  Everyone should be appalled, not looking for excuses to justify evil.

[San]

HMI ???

The only professed organizations that I know of are the Strategic Communication Task Force (with the stated objective to counter Aruban criticism) and AHATA (with the stated objective to support tourism).

I have followed this story since day one.  I read both "the good" and "the bad" sites.  I scan news/comments from Curacao, the Netherlands, Bonaire, etc.

I have never, in my life, ever professed or believed something because someone directed me to do so.

Support for Natalee "the American girl", arouse from many, some of us with no known ties, whatsoever.

The only organized propaganda, by virtue of their own stated objectives, comes from Aruba. Do I believe these groups have paid posters and agendas??  Absolutely!!!  That is the purpose of the organization.

The rest of us are not organized.  We are the little people, seeking justice because there is fear that this situation could happen again.  The next time it could be someone I know personally.  No highschool graduate should just disappear.  Everyone should be appalled, not looking for excuses to justify evil.

Nicely said Buckeye.

[MumInOhio]

How does one get evidence when a judge blocks searches at a suspect's home??

one appeals the judges decision or submits a better warrant (like the Dutch did last year).

Ramm....Just checked, the Dutch did not search the van der Sloots until April 29th 2007. Heck,23 months later you wouldn't think there would be much left to find. So, in your opinion why was this ruling not appealed or the warrant resubmitted? TIA

[ldstlou]

How does one get evidence when a judge blocks searches at a suspect's home??

one appeals the judges decision or submits a better warrant (like the Dutch did last year).

LOL!! That explains everything!!

It's obvious you can't justify those questions and neither can the corrupt folks in Aruba. Those two judges helped kill this case and you know it. They are anything but honorable. You avoided the question about Reality at BFN also.


1. His arrest was anything but unfounded PVDS called Natalee a corpse before she went missing,The Court ruled that there are indications he had 2 contacts with Natalee the night she went missing. He obstructed a murder investigation and changed his story.

2. Since when do Murder suspects get immunity from getting there house searched?

his arrest was ruled as "unfounded". Anyway, Paul said "no body no case", he did not use the word corpse and the time at which he said that is rather disputed also. The court ruled there were suspicions that he had had 2 contacts with Natalee but as they ruled his arrest as unfounded I must assume that the judges did not think this was proven for else they would not have ruled his arrest as "unfounded"

Suspects get their houses searched and stuff is impounded, however, there are still rules that must be taken into account and most likely that means that the DA did not make a good enough case for placing Natalee near or inside the elder van der Sloot's home.

I wonder what case was made placing her inside the seucrity guards' homes.  They never laid eyes on her and yet a judge ruled that the main residence of the one last seen with her could NOT be searched.

OUCH!!!
Great point Anna!!! There is NO WAY!! it can be denied there was a double standard here in regards to guards vs. the sloots!!
And didn't ramm say before that a judge MUST be at the suspects house when it is searched...thus justifying why the judges were there for their over night pj party at the sloots? Was there a judge or 2 present at the guards homes when they were searched?