Natalee Case Discussion #689 11/13 - 11/21/07

[San]

[Buckeye]

I've never been first, so why not.

Found this site helpful:

For Ramm

Prosecutors have almost omnipotent powers to settle cases outside of court through the use of the conditional waiver and transaction. Both measures are procedural options available to the prosecutor and to the police, although on a much more limited basis. These measures can be used to dispose of cases without having to bring them to court. The conditional waiver resembles an informal system as few conditions exist within it to limit prosecutorial decisions. The prosecutor has an almost unlimited flexibility in the conditions assigned to the accused (more so than the options available to the judge when handing down a sentence or attaching specific conditions when handing down a suspended sentence.) While transaction exists as a means of keeping the accused out of the formal court system, detailed legislative regulations exist to restrict the transaction procedure.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/netherlands.html

[Buckeye]

Search Warrants:

When a search warrant is required, an apartment may be searched only if the police officer is accompanied by any of the following persons: a cantonal court judge, a police commissioner, or the mayor of a municipality. A written search warrant may be issued by the procurer-general of a court, an Officer of Justice (prosecuting attorney), or by special written permission from one of his auxiliary officials (hulpofficier) which also includes a higher-ranking police official at the level of inspecteur. A hulpofficier can only provide a search warrant for another officer, but not for his own investigation. Any articles or objects which aid in establishing the truth or prove unlawfully obtained profit or criminal activity are subject to seizure.

Don't think a judge is needed at all.  Makes one wonder if he just happened to be at the Sloots....for brunch...I mean just coincidentally...hmmmm

[MumInOhio]

*******
LOL!! Thats BS! Remember PVDS was arrested for susipion of murder,kidnapping..etc..A week after the first search and they never searched the main house or elsewhere that time either.

Guess KJ dropped the ball on that too! Right there is proof positive that they did not want to implicate Paulus or Joran!

[msmarple]

http://www.diario-aruba.com/2007/11/13/

HOMBER GEDAL CU BAT DI BASEBALL RIBA CABEZ
 
ORANJESTAD(AAN)---Diadomingo pa 7\'or di anochi, polisnan ta bai na Rooi Kochi, na unda tin un homber tur na sanger.

E homber R.E.B. di 31 aña, ta bisa polisnan cu su yiu muhe di crianza tin problema cu su ex amigo G.F.R.G.Q, naci na Aruba di 20 aña.

E ta bisa polisnan cu tur biaha e homber ta menasa e yiu.  R.E.B. a bisa polisnan cu el a bai  na cas di Q pa papia cune.

Den e discusion aki, a cuminsa un pelea formal. R. a bisa polisnan cu Q a dale cu un bate di baseball.

Polisnan a mira cu e tabata sangra pisa na su cabes. El a morde Q na su dede pa e lague bai. Polisnan a bai Seroe Alejandro y a papia cu Q.

El a bisa polisnan cu ta R.E.B. a bin cu e bate di baseball y menase cune. B tabata zwaai cu e bate y el a kite for di dje y dale riba su cabes. Polisnan a detene y a hibe na Recherche.

Online Pap translation:

man gedal cu bat of baseball on cabez

oranjestad(aan)---diadomingo for 7'or of night, polisnan is go at rooi kochi, at where have one man all at blood.

he r.e.b. of 31 year, is tell polisnan cu his child muhe of crianza have problem cu his ex amigo g.f.r.g.q, naci at aruba of 20 year.

the is tell polisnan cu all trip he is menasa the child. r.e.b. owing to tell polisnan cu past owing to go at home of q for talk cune.

in the discusion here, owing to cuminsa one action serious. r. owing to tell polisnan cu q owing to dale cu one bate of baseball.

polisnan owing to see cu the was bleed pisa at his cabes. past owing to bite q at his finger for her lague go. polisnan owing to go seroe alejandro y owing to talk cu q. past owing to tell polisnan cu is r.e.b. owing to come cu the bate of baseball y menase cune. b was zwaai cu the bate y past owing to kite for of dje y dale on his cabes. polisnan owing to detene y owing to hibe at recherche.

* * *

[MumInOhio]

quote igsigs...They took the Sloot cars because Joran *might* have been in them the night in question. Yet Joran admits he was in the main house (for hours) immediately after returning home that night. You can go on and on about the shady search warrant


Great point about the cars Igsigs. Might have been in the cars, so search them. Was in the house, so don't search that!

[MumInOhio]

quote Anna...Jossy said they shared an office at the court house and Sloot was located right there in the same area.  When Joran's DNA request form, already signed by the judge, disappeared, that's when Paulus was asked to move out and vacate his office in the courthouse which is a very small building.  They couldn't miss each other daily there.
.


quote Ramm...but that does not make them friends. While Karen Jansen appeared on the island Paul van der Sloot was studying to become judge in Curacao and later in the Netherlands. Joran wrote himself that his father was barely home for those years.

And about that DNA issue, I can remember from long ago that the judge decided against that and ordered the samples destroyed (on appeal I think)  because there was no legal foundation from them to have the DNA of the suspects.


Anna...you are right on this one. I remember that whatever the Judge needed of Joran's went 'missing'. And only Joran's!

[Dayhiker]

I've never been first, so why not.

Found this site helpful:

For Ramm

Prosecutors have almost omnipotent powers to settle cases outside of court through the use of the conditional waiver and transaction. Both measures are procedural options available to the prosecutor and to the police, although on a much more limited basis. These measures can be used to dispose of cases without having to bring them to court. The conditional waiver resembles an informal system as few conditions exist within it to limit prosecutorial decisions. The prosecutor has an almost unlimited flexibility in the conditions assigned to the accused (more so than the options available to the judge when handing down a sentence or attaching specific conditions when handing down a suspended sentence.) While transaction exists as a means of keeping the accused out of the formal court system, detailed legislative regulations exist to restrict the transaction procedure.

http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/netherlands.html

So the long and short of it is that Dutch judges can plea bargain.

[Dayhiker]

quote Anna...Jossy said they shared an office at the court house and Sloot was located right there in the same area.  When Joran's DNA request form, already signed by the judge, disappeared, that's when Paulus was asked to move out and vacate his office in the courthouse which is a very small building.  They couldn't miss each other daily there.
.


quote Ramm...but that does not make them friends. While Karen Jansen appeared on the island Paul van der Sloot was studying to become judge in Curacao and later in the Netherlands. Joran wrote himself that his father was barely home for those years.

And about that DNA issue, I can remember from long ago that the judge decided against that and ordered the samples destroyed (on appeal I think)  because there was no legal foundation from them to have the DNA of the suspects.


Anna...you are right on this one. I remember that whatever the Judge needed of Joran's went 'missing'. And only Joran's!

Wouldn't the prosecutor have to have a judge's order to collect DNA in the first place? Certainly they can't "go in like cowboys' and collect DNA?

Looks like a case of them reversing themselves to dstroy evidence.

[MumInOhio]

SAN...I believe Ooman was replaced because of a conflict of interest(what a joke). I think Deepak and Satish had the same lawyer originally and this was deemed a conflict. I wonder if he was replaced and not paid so that the early files would stay in his possession. Or as was posted last night, maybe Deepak realized that Ooman was feeding Paulus the files. Anyone remember when Kock became Deepak's lawyer? Was it after the police car tapes?

[Anna]

quote Anna...Jossy said they shared an office at the court house and Sloot was located right there in the same area.  When Joran's DNA request form, already signed by the judge, disappeared, that's when Paulus was asked to move out and vacate his office in the courthouse which is a very small building.  They couldn't miss each other daily there.
.


quote Ramm...but that does not make them friends. While Karen Jansen appeared on the island Paul van der Sloot was studying to become judge in Curacao and later in the Netherlands. Joran wrote himself that his father was barely home for those years.

And about that DNA issue, I can remember from long ago that the judge decided against that and ordered the samples destroyed (on appeal I think)  because there was no legal foundation from them to have the DNA of the suspects.


Anna...you are right on this one. I remember that whatever the Judge needed of Joran's went 'missing'. And only Joran's!

Wouldn't the prosecutor have to have a judge's order to collect DNA in the first place? Certainly they can't "go in like cowboys' and collect DNA?

Looks like a case of them reversing themselves to destroy evidence.

Dayhiker,

It was the judge's order that mysteriously disappeared but on JORAN ONLY!  It vanished just like the evidence against Vocking in the Alex Matthews case right out of the file!  Soon after, Paulus was invited to pack up and leave his office at the courthouse.

Just a coincidence, I'm sure. . . .

[MumInOhio]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: MumInOhio on November 12, 2007, 09:05:06 AM
And my opinion about the reversal I posted twice yesterday I think but the long and the short of it that he did not reverse himself, he ruled on 2 separate issues. One was whether the detention could be extended, the other was a petition to the court by Joran's lawyer for a conditional release in order for him to go to school. Once he had decided on the first he later made a ruling on the second when he was back on Curacao

Yes Ramm...I understand what you posted, but am unable to understand why if this one judge had both of these issues presented to him, he did not rule on both of them in the courtroom. They were ruled on 3 hours apart which doesn't make a lick of sense as I'm sure the lawyers for Joran were in the courtroom for the first ruling. He certainly had to know about Carlo's letter 3 hours earlier as it was written August 14th! Makes it seem like something underhanded was going on and maybe if he had ruled on both issues in the courtroom some would not be questioning his motives!

quote Ramm
yes, but he could not make a ruling before he ruled on the first issue (the extending of the detention). One depends on the other. If he would have ruled in favor of Joran in the first issue than he would have no need to rule on the second one.


Ramm Once he ruled on the first issue,in the courtroom,then he should have ruled on the second issue,in the courtroom.He ended up having to rule on both, so they both should have been ruled on in the courtroom! Instead he jumped a plane and faxed his second ruling!
 
 
 
 
 

[Anna]

Search Warrants:

When a search warrant is required, an apartment may be searched only if the police officer is accompanied by any of the following persons: a cantonal court judge, a police commissioner, or the mayor of a municipality. A written search warrant may be issued by the procurer-general of a court, an Officer of Justice (prosecuting attorney), or by special written permission from one of his auxiliary officials (hulpofficier) which also includes a higher-ranking police official at the level of inspecteur. A hulpofficier can only provide a search warrant for another officer, but not for his own investigation. Any articles or objects which aid in establishing the truth or prove unlawfully obtained profit or criminal activity are subject to seizure.

Don't think a judge is needed at all.  Makes one wonder if he just happened to be at the Sloots....for brunch...I mean just coincidentally...hmmmm

Search Warrants:

When a search warrant is required, an apartment may be searched only if the police officer is accompanied by any of the following persons: a cantonal court judge, a police commissioner, or the mayor of a municipality. A written search warrant may be issued by the procurer-general of a court, an Officer of Justice (prosecuting attorney), or by special written permission from one of his auxiliary officials (hulpofficier) which also includes a higher-ranking police official at the level of inspecteur. A hulpofficier can only provide a search warrant for another officer, but not for his own investigation. Any articles or objects which aid in establishing the truth or prove unlawfully obtained profit or criminal activity are subject to seizure.

Don't think a judge is needed at all.  Makes one wonder if he just happened to be at the Sloots....for brunch...I mean just coincidentally...hmmmm

In limited cases, those in which "police investigations cannot be finalized because specific further measures need to be taken," the prosecutor will request a judicial preliminary investigation by an "Examining Judge" at the District Court level. Other situations are dictated by the Code of Criminal Procedure to act as a check on senior police officers or prosecutors, such as circumstances involving the search of premises. Judicial examinations occur in about 6% of all investigations.


Nope, I read that as only in 6% of cases is one even requested.

.

[Anna]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: MumInOhio on November 12, 2007, 09:05:06 AM
And my opinion about the reversal I posted twice yesterday I think but the long and the short of it that he did not reverse himself, he ruled on 2 separate issues. One was whether the detention could be extended, the other was a petition to the court by Joran's lawyer for a conditional release in order for him to go to school. Once he had decided on the first he later made a ruling on the second when he was back on Curacao

Yes Ramm...I understand what you posted, but am unable to understand why if this one judge had both of these issues presented to him, he did not rule on both of them in the courtroom. They were ruled on 3 hours apart which doesn't make a lick of sense as I'm sure the lawyers for Joran were in the courtroom for the first ruling. He certainly had to know about Carlo's letter 3 hours earlier as it was written August 14th! Makes it seem like something underhanded was going on and maybe if he had ruled on both issues in the courtroom some would not be questioning his motives!

quote Ramm
yes, but he could not make a ruling before he ruled on the first issue (the extending of the detention). One depends on the other. If he would have ruled in favor of Joran in the first issue than he would have no need to rule on the second one.


Ramm Once he ruled on the first issue,in the courtroom,then he should have ruled on the second issue,in the courtroom.He ended up having to rule on both, so they both should have been ruled on in the courtroom! Instead he jumped a plane and faxed his second ruling!
 
 
 
 
 

Yep, he got outta Dodge and sent the second ruling back by fax because he was too cowardly to do it in a place where he might encounter Natalee's parents, IMO.  Either that or he thought it could be sneaked into play without anyone noticing what he had done in the second ruling.

It is ridiculous to say he could not rule on one first then the other properly from the bench instead of via fax like a thief in the night.

.

[MumInOhio]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote from: MumInOhio on November 12, 2007, 09:05:06 AM
And my opinion about the reversal I posted twice yesterday I think but the long and the short of it that he did not reverse himself, he ruled on 2 separate issues. One was whether the detention could be extended, the other was a petition to the court by Joran's lawyer for a conditional release in order for him to go to school. Once he had decided on the first he later made a ruling on the second when he was back on Curacao

Yes Ramm...I understand what you posted, but am unable to understand why if this one judge had both of these issues presented to him, he did not rule on both of them in the courtroom. They were ruled on 3 hours apart which doesn't make a lick of sense as I'm sure the lawyers for Joran were in the courtroom for the first ruling. He certainly had to know about Carlo's letter 3 hours earlier as it was written August 14th! Makes it seem like something underhanded was going on and maybe if he had ruled on both issues in the courtroom some would not be questioning his motives!

quote Ramm
yes, but he could not make a ruling before he ruled on the first issue (the extending of the detention). One depends on the other. If he would have ruled in favor of Joran in the first issue than he would have no need to rule on the second one.


Ramm Once he ruled on the first issue,in the courtroom,then he should have ruled on the second issue,in the courtroom.He ended up having to rule on both, so they both should have been ruled on in the courtroom! Instead he jumped a plane and faxed his second ruling!
 
 
 
 
 

Yep, he got outta Dodge and sent the second ruling back by fax because he was too cowardly to do it in a place where he might encounter Natalee's parents, IMO.  Either that or he thought it could be sneaked into play without anyone noticing what he had done in the second ruling.
It is ridiculous to say he could not rule on one first then the other properly from the bench instead of via fax like a thief in the night.

.

And because of Katrina, they thought the press would not be watching!

[Dayhiker]

Yep, he got outta Dodge and sent the second ruling back by fax because he was too cowardly to do it in a place where he might encounter Natalee's parents, IMO.  Either that or he thought it could be sneaked into play without anyone noticing what he had done in the second ruling.

It is ridiculous to say he could not rule on one first then the other properly from the bench instead of via fax like a thief in the night.

What kinda judge, other than a crooked judge, takes the time to reasearch, write and make a ruling then reverses himself three hours later? You're right Anna, he just didn't want to be on Aruba when the shit hit the fan.

[Buckeye]

I believe Deepak even discusses legal fees with Jaime but I did find this.  It was my understanding that there is no worry about fees to lawyers because the issue is settled after the case and the government pays the legal fees.  There was even a mention, at some time, that the SG did not sue because there legal fees were paid by the gov't.  So, what is the bit about Ooman not releasing files because he was not paid??

George is correct. Plaintiffs get free legal representation in the criminal courts. The only option for free representation in the civil courts is called maintenance. Under a maintenance arrangement, the plaintiff agrees to compensate his/her legal representative with a portion of the monetary damages awarded. A routine maintenance arrangement calls for some one-third of the damages awarded (compensatory and punitive) to be paid to the plaintiff's legal representative. Clearly, Deepak's lawyer, Rudi Oomen, could advertise in the New York Times for an American law firm to pursue damages on behalf of Deepak Kalpoe in the United States of America under a maintenance agreement.

With Aloha,

Harry

http://www.hyscience.com/archives/2005/10/harrytho_1024_n.php


So, Deepak has fees for the civil case, but NOT the criminal case.  Why do they keep saying that Ooman won't release files because he's owed money??

Liars.....all of them!!

[Anna]

quote Anna...Jossy said they shared an office at the court house and Sloot was located right there in the same area.  When Joran's DNA request form, already signed by the judge, disappeared, that's when Paulus was asked to move out and vacate his office in the courthouse which is a very small building.  They couldn't miss each other daily there.
.


quote Ramm...but that does not make them friends. While Karen Jansen appeared on the island Paul van der Sloot was studying to become judge in Curacao and later in the Netherlands. Joran wrote himself that his father was barely home for those years.

And about that DNA issue, I can remember from long ago that the judge decided against that and ordered the samples destroyed (on appeal I think)  because there was no legal foundation from them to have the DNA of the suspects.


Anna...you are right on this one. I remember that whatever the Judge needed of Joran's went 'missing'. And only Joran's!

And the judge never ordered them destroyed, either.  What he did was allowed them into evidence after Cowgirl Janssen sneaked and went ahead and had Jorna's sample, which was already taken when it was discovered that someone (read Paulus) had made the order disappear.  She had it analyzed on the sly anyway, maybe for her own information or whatever.  When the judge found this out and that it did not match the sample, I think taken from the toothbrush that was not even Natalee's that they got out of the trash in the HI room, the judge, looking for any and everything to exonerate his friend's son, allowed it into evidence anyway.

Of course, since the game was to frame the Kalpoes, there was never any doubt that their DNA was going into the file.
And so it did.

.

[Anna]

Yep, he got outta Dodge and sent the second ruling back by fax because he was too cowardly to do it in a place where he might encounter Natalee's parents, IMO.  Either that or he thought it could be sneaked into play without anyone noticing what he had done in the second ruling.

It is ridiculous to say he could not rule on one first then the other properly from the bench instead of via fax like a thief in the night.

What kinda judge, other than a crooked judge, takes the time to research, write and make a ruling then reverses himself three hours later? You're right Anna, he just didn't want to be on Aruba when the shit hit the fan.

Mum is correct.  They thought we would be too busy counting our dead from Katrina to notice.  Nice people, huh, to take advantage of a tragedy of that proportion to try and pull something over on us like this.

[Buckeye]

Deepak Kalpoe:    No,..they, they they told us...they told us. They just asked advanced and
   we didn’t give them much advance. Just a small amounts... just to keep their office running, because they’re charge them for, you know, statements that come to them. They charge them, you know, twenty five cents for form sheets (unintelligible) So we just give them money to run the office, you know, phone calls (unintelligible) . They told us once this is over and we’re clean, we're gonna get our expense back and they sue the government and they get their money.

 
Jamie Skeeters:    You can sue the government?
   

 
Deepak Kalpoe:    Yeah, so, you just, you know, open a case or I open a case,
   you know.  I have like, fifty thousand in lawyer fees, because of news going out, so paying now. And that’s the way they get their money, so that’s why we’re not that, you know, that much worried about this. But, what they’re worried about is how long, or how much time will this take.


http://scrux.com/natalee/skeetersseg5script.htm