Natalee Case Discussion #697 11/29 - 11/30/2007

[klaasend]

refresh my memory, what did his research find?

That Joran is guilty - that the beach story was BS - that Joran took Natalee to his house.

The only contravercial part of his show is when he showed a copy of a PV where a witness (my guess is one of Renfro's pals) had made a statement about seeing Natalee do drugs.

[crazybabyborg]

After C&C's: Go to Joran's. Satish goes home. Maybe Deepak AND Satish go home. Freddy is at Joran's.

Natalee dies.

Joran calls Kalpoe/s setting off the car washing: 1:30 Quick plan devised to get a trap, put her in it, and dump her in the ocean.

Contact is made to someone who can haul the trap and take her out to sea.

Kalpoe/s pick Joran up to get the trap. Too risky to have the body with them. They are seen waiting for the contact @ 2:30.

They break into the hut and get the trap. Deepak is at the beach at 3:00. They load the trap into the contact's truck/SUV. Either Joran goes back home with the contact and Kalpoes go home, or rides back home with Kalpoes and then Kalpoes go home. They start establishing their alibis as soon as they are home.

Body is collected at Joran's, and taken by contact to a boat where she is dumped at sea.

Joran is home @ 4:00 establishing an alibi.

Freddy knows it all.

I have always struggled with whether the body was disposed of permenantly that same night. I tentively think it was. The ATM withdrawel, and the theft of the crab trap lend themselves to it. I'm of the opinion that for Joran's crowd, involvement in crime wasn't so foreign as to cause the kind of pause that any of us would face. Even if it was disposed of that night, there was still much to do. Someone thought quickly to have Deepak/Satish clean the car. Joran's whole apartment would require the same scrutiny, and there would be disposal of anything with blood. His shoes were problematic in some way as well. There was still much to do. I have also wondered if maybe Natalee wasn't raped and injured in Deepak's car, then taken to Joran's. Lots to figure out.

[Nut44x4]

Buckshot...I mean apx. 24 hours after. Let's say she expired at 1:15 am on the morning of  May 30th. She was buried or 'stored' (geeeeeeezeeeee I hate saying it like that) somewhere but NOT taken to the ocean until the early morning hours (say 2:00 amish) on the 31st. I think we all agree she was moved at LEAST once and possibly twice before they took her to the sea.

[crazybabyborg]

It's been downgraded to a practice test (book). Whether he was awake or not while taking it is unknown.

Oh, Geta, you're mistaken!  Don't you remember that Rosemary's Baby said yesterday that Joran took an exam at 8:00 the next day and made an "A" on it?   

[dennisintn]

Grip - Trial is coming

The standard for re-arrest at this time was very high - we are told. That alone is a strong indicator. IMO

I knew I could count on you to make me feel better 

Does anyone still have the school's exam schedule or remember whether Joran had an exam that same morning? I think it was Tacopina or Cruella de Ville who said (quoting la Renfro?) that he had an exam and aced it. I know that people I spoke to told me that Joran was sleeping in class that day...and arubagirl had also stated the same at the beginning from people who were in school with him that day.

i remember seeing the isa schedule for that period of time and i'm sure the final exams were listed for the following week.  he might have had an exam scheduled for that monday but his actions on sunday night sure don't show any preparations for having one.  i personally think it's another lie from anita.
dennisintn

[Scandi]

Revised:

She's dead before Deepak scours his car, that just makes sense. Neighbor said 1:30.
Someone with access to a boat has been contacted and a plan devised to get a crab trap and dump her in the ocean. The guys have agreed to meet the contact at the beach to get a crab trap so her body wouldn't wash ashore.
They're hiding and waiting at 2:30. A crab trap wouldn't fit in Deepak's car, would it? The contact will haul it.
Whoever they are waiting for is met and they go to the beach to get a crab trap. Puts Deepak at the beach @ 3:00.
By 4:00, Joran's home.

Very interesting Crazybabyborg, 

I just wonder if they really took her out into the ocean that night.  I remember Dompig on American TV saying a boat was known to have gone out the following night after she went missing, from the input {which is not far from the spot where Dave found the wooden cross by the beach}.

The Holloways came to town 2 days after she went missing and arrived around 3 - 4am as I remember.  If Joran and Deepak took off around say midnight and with the boat skipper friend loaded the cage {which had been stolen the night before along with a knife and ROPE} with Natalee inside and took her out, they would be back in an hour or so I would think if they did go 3 miles out which is out of the bay and into the ocean.

Remember Beth commented that Deepak and Joran didn't look dressed to be out in a bar?  That fits for me, as when they got back from dropping her, they went to the casino which is where Papa Sloot got ahold of Joran to get home as the Holloways were there.

Just thinking, but things do seem to fit using this scenario together with yours.  xox

another thought... they did not necessarily have to make final disposal that night. from leaving c&c's, they had 24 hours and another dark night to work with (the next night, just prior to group's arrival) temporary burial could very well have been used until next evening.  that night could have been used for alibis and incriminating evidence gathering (into bag for raquet club drop-off). IIRC, boat ride with koen took place the next evening - is this correct?
asking someone, not directly involved, would take more than a 3am call. may take a sit down meeting to convince a good friend to get involved with such a crime.

contradictory to my previous paragraph - why was paulus' atm card used in the middle of the night if i am supposing final burial took place the next night.

i, too, can spin my head in circles with theories - some contradictory of the previous.

How Funny Buckshot!  It is tricky to put everything together for one thing if you use links because of the changing story that was told, for one thing, and we didn't learn quite enough anyway!  Posters even poo-pooed the gardeners story, but I am thinking Jossy was right and he was truthful.

Did the meeting of the 3 with Paulus take place the afternoon of the day she went missing?  I thinks so, and that could be when the plan was effected by Paulus with the boys.  I am thinking that as someone here just said, Deepak and Joran went back to the beach to temporarily bury her by the Fisherman's Huts after calling Paulus to let him know what had happened.  They knew Steve Croes could be hired to take her out to sea, and possibly in anticipation of that, Paulus went to the ATM machine that early am to get cash to pay him.  Steve was reported to have broken into the Huts and stole the things that were missing that early morning - a police report I believe, or was reported by them.  And I think Steve was the one they were waiting for to meet at the racquet club, who did put the stolen things in the bushes around that pond realizing he needed to have more time to get the boat ready and everything prepared to make the trip out into the ocean.  I think something stopped them from taking her out that night, plus there was no boat that went out that night acc to Dompig as it was the following night,

I think Croes was the one who helped in disposal, as having stole the fishing cage and accoutrements, he then made a phone call to the Sloot house around 6:30am that same morning from the south side of the island, supposedly from Max's home.  I can not find that in a link for the life of me, but do remember reading it.  And remember Steve was away from his ship that night from what we learned.

[crazybabyborg]

I'm cracking up............. 

What a team!

Rosemary's Baby Jerksapenis.

 

sorry, I'll get a grip...............

[BUCKSHOT]

TES finding the body would have a lot of people shitting in their pants right on the spot, now wouldn't it !!!

if the three current suspects are released next week, i think the there will be major public uproar. i hope this is not a case, as someone else suggested, of a media friendly prosecutor who will tell the public, 'well, we tried, and there is simply not enough evidence to convict"

this could also be a staged resolution to the case to salvage whatever tourism dollars may still exist.

[Tamikosmom]

Tamikosmom's musings ... musings that include all seven detained  suspects as well as Freddy.

Janet

++++++++++++++++

OCKHAM'S RAZOR
"You must never fail to adopt the simplest idea as your working hypothesis. If necessity demands, you can dump it later when you have more data, but only because it is no longer the simplest idea" or "entities should not be multiplied beyond necessity."


1.  Freddy is waiting at the VDS' residence ... with his camera ... when Satish, Deepak and Joran arrive with a drugged Natalee after leaving Carlos 'N Charles'.

2.  Guido arrives in his own vehicle at the same time.

3.  In an attempt to escape a gang rape Natalee sustains a head injury.

4.  As the sexual assault ensues Natalee appears to pass out.

5.  The decision is made to take Natalee to the beach where she can sleep it off and ... make her own way to the HI in time to catch her flight back home.

6.  Guido leaves the picture.

7.  Joran, Deepak and Freddy ... enroute to the beach ... drop off Satish off at home.

8.  Deepak drops off Joran, Freddy and a "passed out" Natalee at the beach while he parks his vehicle a short distance away at the tennis club.

9.  However ... Freddy and Joran realize that Natalee is deceased. 

10.  Leaving a deceased Natalee on the beach ... Joran and Freddy run across the street to where Deepak is waiting in his vehicle.

11.  A panicked discussion ensues.  When it is considered that Joran, Deepak and Satish were observed leaving Carlos 'n Charlie's  ... the injury and the DNA evidence on Natalee's person could be very incriminating.

12.  Paulus is contacted.

13.  The gardener enters the picture.  He observes Joran, Deepak and Freddy in the parked vehicle.

14.  Paulus arrives and ... accesses the situation.

15.  Assistance in moving a deceased Natalee is required.  GVC and Steve Croes are contacted.

16.  Deepak, Joran and Freddy leave the scene.

+++++++++++++++++

i like the train of thought, but... where does cleaning kalpoe car come in to play??

I speculate that Paulus contacted Steve Croes and GVC to assist with the moving of Natalee's remains from the beach and ... then sent Deepak and Freddy home.  Joran stayed a while and then Paulus decided to sent him home walking and ... this is when he called Deepak.  The reasoning for sending Deepak, Freddy and then Joran away ... if any of them talked ... No Body; No Case.

The following words of Deepak in the Jamie Skeeters' interview tells me that that Joran and Deepak knew that Natalee was deceased but ... unaware of where her remains could be located.

Janet

+++++++++++

Deepak Kalpoe
DEEPAK/SKEETERS INTERVIEW

We don’t know where the body is.

If I knew where the body is, I would tell them a long time ago.


David Kock - Satish's Attorney
On the Record w/ Greta
August 24, 2005

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN: All right. So your client, 2 o'clock to 3 o'clock, is on the Internet at home. I've been in his room. I've seen the computer, or at least where it was. And he gets phone calls at 2:40 and 3 a.m. from Joran. Where do the cell records place the phone that Joran is using at 2:40 and 3 o'clock in the morning?

DAVID KOCK, SATISH KALPOE'S ATTORNEY:: Well, there's not an exact pinpoint indication, but the general area is the area here in north in Palm Beach of the hotel.

VAN SUSTEREN: So it looks like he's not home at that hour, but someplace near the Marriott, is that right?

KOCK: That is correct. He is in this neighborhood.

VAN SUSTEREN: Is there any explanation as to how he got from the hotel to his home?

KOCK: No, other than what my client stated that he heard or was told by Joran, is that he went home walking. But you know, we don't have any way to verify it. As I indicated in the past, on the path from here to his house, there are certain banks, gas stations, et cetera, that have video cameras that are filming the street. But they just keep them for a couple of days. So by the time the police went there to ask to get these videotapes, they were already wiped out. So you know, we cannot confirm it by any other means.

[Nut44x4]

No, no. Deepak wouldn't wash his car and then put her back in it. Someone else picks up Natalee after she's dead, and the boy's job is to get the trap, then meet the boat where she's been taken.

That fish trap would have to be put in a truck.  Who had the truck?  Paulus?  Steve Crose?

If you look at one of the pictures of Steve Croes' house there is a blue pickup truck parked there.  This truck would fit a trap and a body.

I would think they would want to use something more enclosed, like say.....a van?? Now who has a van? Lorenzo has a van.

[crazybabyborg]

Janet, again, you are invaluable! Thanks for reminding us of what we know and can't remember! 

OK. That calls for revision.

[BUCKSHOT]

Revised:

She's dead before Deepak scours his car, that just makes sense. Neighbor said 1:30.
Someone with access to a boat has been contacted and a plan devised to get a crab trap and dump her in the ocean. The guys have agreed to meet the contact at the beach to get a crab trap so her body wouldn't wash ashore.
They're hiding and waiting at 2:30. A crab trap wouldn't fit in Deepak's car, would it? The contact will haul it.
Whoever they are waiting for is met and they go to the beach to get a crab trap. Puts Deepak at the beach @ 3:00.
By 4:00, Joran's home.

Very interesting Crazybabyborg, 

I just wonder if they really took her out into the ocean that night.  I remember Dompig on American TV saying a boat was known to have gone out the following night after she went missing, from the input {which is not far from the spot where Dave found the wooden cross by the beach}.

The Holloways came to town 2 days after she went missing and arrived around 3 - 4am as I remember.  If Joran and Deepak took off around say midnight and with the boat skipper friend loaded the cage {which had been stolen the night before along with a knife and ROPE} with Natalee inside and took her out, they would be back in an hour or so I would think if they did go 3 miles out which is out of the bay and into the ocean.

Remember Beth commented that Deepak and Joran didn't look dressed to be out in a bar?  That fits for me, as when they got back from dropping her, they went to the casino which is where Papa Sloot got ahold of Joran to get home as the Holloways were there.

Just thinking, but things do seem to fit using this scenario together with yours.  xox

another thought... they did not necessarily have to make final disposal that night. from leaving c&c's, they had 24 hours and another dark night to work with (the next night, just prior to group's arrival) temporary burial could very well have been used until next evening.  that night could have been used for alibis and incriminating evidence gathering (into bag for raquet club drop-off). IIRC, boat ride with koen took place the next evening - is this correct?
asking someone, not directly involved, would take more than a 3am call. may take a sit down meeting to convince a good friend to get involved with such a crime.

contradictory to my previous paragraph - why was paulus' atm card used in the middle of the night if i am supposing final burial took place the next night.

i, too, can spin my head in circles with theories - some contradictory of the previous.

How Funny Buckshot!  It is tricky to put everything together for one thing if you use links because of the changing story that was told, for one thing, and we didn't learn quite enough anyway!  Posters even poo-pooed the gardeners story, but I am thinking Jossy was right and he was truthful.

Did the meeting of the 3 with Paulus take place the afternoon of the day she went missing?  I thinks so, and that could be when the plan was effected by Paulus with the boys.  I am thinking that as someone here just said, Deepak and Joran went back to the beach to temporarily bury her by the Fisherman's Huts after calling Paulus to let him know what had happened.  They knew Steve Croes could be hired to take her out to sea, and possibly in anticipation of that, Paulus went to the ATM machine that early am to get cash to pay him.  Steve was reported to have broken into the Huts and stole the things that were missing that early morning - a police report I believe, or was reported by them.  And I think Steve was the one they were waiting for to meet at the racquet club, who did put the stolen things in the bushes around that pond realizing he needed to have more time to get the boat ready and everything prepared to make the trip out into the ocean.  I think something stopped them from taking her out that night, plus there was no boat that went out that night acc to Dompig as it was the following night,

I think Croes was the one who helped in disposal, as having stole the fishing cage and accoutrements, he then made a phone call to the Sloot house around 6:30am that same morning from the south side of the island, supposedly from Max's home.  I can not find that in a link for the life of me, but do remember reading it.  And remember Steve was away from his ship that night from what we learned.

has it ever officially been confirmed that croes was the one who broke into FH and stole trap and knife? or deductive logic? just curious...

also, it is hard to think those involved would be stupid enough to use beach at FH to temporarily bury NH. seems to "out in the open" for an unknowing tourist to stumble upon.

[Anna]

If you go with every rumor that has been reported on the internet, it will drive you nuts!

I don't think that there has even been absolute proof of Paulus making an ATM withdrawal, just media and internet rumor.

Involvement of others remains speculation at best.

It will just take you in circles.  I am going to wait and see what Hans says happened.

Have waited this long, what's another thirty days?

.

[Nut44x4]

It's been downgraded to a practice test (book). Whether he was awake or not while taking it is unknown.

And it is also very easy to ACE an exam that you never took

[San]

TES finding the body would have a lot of people shitting in their pants right on the spot, now wouldn't it !!!

if the three current suspects are released next week, i think the there will be major public uproar. i hope this is not a case, as someone else suggested, of a media friendly prosecutor who will tell the public, 'well, we tried, and there is simply not enough evidence to convict"

this could also be a staged resolution to the case to salvage whatever tourism dollars may still exist.

I agree.

[Nut44x4]

I'm cracking up............. 

What a team!

Rosemary's Baby Jerksapenis.

 

sorry, I'll get a grip...............

OMG you are cracking me up too!!!

[Getagrip]

I'm cracking up............. 

What a team!

Rosemary's Baby Jerksapenis.

 

sorry, I'll get a grip...............

Indeed. Does the other guy have a pet name? I can't even remember his real name, I just know he didn't seem overly enthusiastic in his role and haven't seen him since.

My head is swimming right now with all the rehashing of old info. Although it makes me feel good to know for a fact that the acing of exams while sleeping is a total crock. 

[Scandi]

Buckshot...I mean apx. 24 hours after. Let's say she expired at 1:15 am on the morning of  May 30th. She was buried or 'stored' (geeeeeeezeeeee I hate saying it like that) somewhere but NOT taken to the ocean until the early morning hours (say 2:00 amish) on the 31st. I think we all agree she was moved at LEAST once and possibly twice before they took her to the sea.

ITA Nut,  The confusion comes in that it was late night on the 29th when they went to C&C's, and so in a few hours it was the next day, and 24 hours later would make it 2 days on the calendar from when they went out to party on their final evening in Aruba.  Right?

[BUCKSHOT]

part of me feels that few were directly involved. more people that know a secret, the less likely the secret to remain a secret.

then, another part of me feels that if J2K do not know where the body really is, they can never slip up and give its location.  this line of thinking involves others.

if GVC and Croes get involved - it is just so tough to comprehend paulus or joran approaching them (whether in middle of day or middle of night) and saying 'hey, i have a really bad situation on hand - i really need your help. can you bury / dispose of this body?'.....'sure, i'll do it for xxx dollars'....

if they are asked and don't do it, then they would unnecessarily know the crime had been committed. what are your thoughts on this ??????

[Nut44x4]

No, no. Deepak wouldn't wash his car and then put her back in it. Someone else picks up Natalee after she's dead, and the boy's job is to get the trap, then meet the boat where she's been taken.

That fish trap would have to be put in a truck.  Who had the truck?  Paulus?  Steve Crose?

If you look at one of the pictures of Steve Croes' house there is a blue pickup truck parked there.  This truck would fit a trap and a body.

I would think they would want to use something more enclosed, like say.....a van?? Now who has a van? Lorenzo has a van.

Wasn't Lorenzo's van spotted in or around the Sloot compound sometime over the two day period or was that just another internet rumor...??