Natalee Case Discussion #697 11/29 - 11/30/2007

[klaasend]

Posted by Lazlo at RU:

Lazlo Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm   
Joe confirmes on Greta: The houses were bugged.

Joe on Greta last night, about the new evidence: they put bugs in the houses of the suspects at different times.

Greta-JoeT clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmDqS0dOkc

There seems to be thousands of pages from the tapped phones and bugs. 

[San]

If you go with every rumor that has been reported on the internet, it will drive you nuts!

I don't think that there has even been absolute proof of Paulus making an ATM withdrawal, just media and internet rumor.

Involvement of others remains speculation at best.

It will just take you in circles.  I am going to wait and see what Hans says happened.

Have waited this long, what's another thirty days?

.

I can wait Anna.  This is why I say I'm still watching.

Why is it we hear about Joran's complaints.  Because it is what we all want to hear.  They are giving us what we want.  Does anyone really think Joran is suffering in jail.  We don't know that he is suffering at all.  It's part of the plan.

[Helen Back]

Grip - Trial is coming

The standard for re-arrest at this time was very high - we are told. That alone is a strong indicator. IMO

I knew I could count on you to make me feel better 

Does anyone still have the school's exam schedule or remember whether Joran had an exam that same morning? I think it was Tacopina or Cruella de Ville who said (quoting la Renfro?) that he had an exam and aced it. I know that people I spoke to told me that Joran was sleeping in class that day...and arubagirl had also stated the same at the beginning from people who were in school with him that day.

 

[friend of monkeys]

ummmmm...


HEY WIZ!!!!  How u been guy?

[friend of monkeys]

Posted by Lazlo at RU:

Lazlo Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm   
Joe confirmes on Greta: The houses were bugged.

Joe on Greta last night, about the new evidence: they put bugs in the houses of the suspects at different times.

Greta-JoeT clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmDqS0dOkc

There seems to be thousands of pages from the tapped phones and bugs. 

Thousands????   

NICE
 

[Tamikosmom]

If you go with every rumor that has been reported on the internet, it will drive you nuts!

I don't think that there has even been absolute proof of Paulus making an ATM withdrawal, just media and internet rumor.

Involvement of others remains speculation at best.

It will just take you in circles.  I am going to wait and see what Hans says happened.

Have waited this long, what's another thirty days?

.

Hi Anna.

The Superior Court ruling of January, 2007 ... the ruling that denied Paulus compenstion for wrongful detainment ... is not speculative.

Beth, Jug and friends have claimed since day one that Paulus placed himself at the McDonalds in the area of the Marriot Beach on the morning that Natalee went missing.  Paulus claimed that his story was that he picked up Joran at MacDonalds at 11:00 PM on the evening of May 29, 2005.  In reality ... Paulus was discrediting Beth, Jug and Friend ... implying they were all lying.

The Superior Court ruled that Paulus' original declaration stated he was at the McDonalds on the morning  that Natalee went missing.  Inquiring minds want to know "Why the lies?"  As Art Wood stated ... "If you want to know the truth ... follow the lies."   

Janet

++++++++++++++++

Superior Court
January, 2007

“With attention to the lying declarations that the son of Paulus, Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot (hereafter Joran) gave about his last contact on the 30th of May 2005 with the disappeared Natalee Holloway, the suspicion is not unreasonable that he made himself guilty of a conduct that can be qualified as murder, manslaughter, or kidnapping that resulted in death.

The possible involvement of Paulus with that could then be deducted from the file with the official reports of witnesses, amongst which two people suggested a contact existed between Paulus and Natalee Holloway the night of her disappearance, and a taped report (that was given by the Prosecutor in her final note 1 to the Court). The taped information and his declaration that he picked up Joran and Natalee by the McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to the Holiday Inn, are clearly understood by the Dept. of Justice, and could in the judgement of this Superior Court, be considered as an indication of the involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.”

[Anna]

Why on earth would Paulus contact any of those kids when he had mature, willing friends such as Vocking and vdStratten who would have enough sense to keep their traps shut?

My list of those involved has shrunk over the last year as no one has come forward spilling the beans.  Who would want to live under this cloud for Joran?

Paulus never lost control of things and certainly I can't see him involving a gang of juvenile delinquents in something this career ending.

MO

[wizard]

Confused yet? Try this from thebutlerdidit at BHS:

Try this on for size:

Joran said he called Deepak about 9:30ish to see if he wanted to go out that night. Deepak was supposed to get off work at 10 that night but the customers ran him late until about 11. Satish had Deepak's car at home so Satish was going to pick Deepak up at 10, not 11. Now break to the MB kids statements where they said Joran was with them at the bar at the HI at 9:45-waltzed in at that time- but he only stayed for 5 minutes before he left. That would make it about 9:50 that maybe he got picked up by Satish on his way to go get Deepak at 10.

In the original statments it was said Joran and Satish waited for Deepak to get off work outside the cafe where Deepak worked because they really had no idea when he was actually coming out past 10. They ended up waiting until almost 11.

Based on that, my question is, what did the three of them do from 11 to 12:30? And another question is, why don't they want anyone now to know they were together during that time?

This information about Joran being with Satish outside waiting for Deepak from 10 to 11 went by the wayside when Paulus claimed to have picked Joran up at McD's at 11ish, took him home after which he sneaked back out. I think this could be the first point at which Paulus needed to cover for where Joran really was between 11 and 12:30.

Add more curiosity to this time frame by noting that Madison and Ruth left CC's about 11PM per their statements.

Add more, that after hours parties for the Soul Beach Festival began at 11 and ended at 3AM. SBF parties are often opportunities to meet band members. And if I'm not mistaken, the tickets were $50 which is coincidentally how much Natalee had with her and even more coincidentally that her friends knew what amount of cash Natalee had with her - must have been a reason.

(Don't get confused by the drinks Natalee may have bought with her 50 bucks at CC's. They all had 2 free drinks for that night and with contests you could win more free drinks, shots or jello shots. When Joran says Natalee bought him a drink, it's likely she won a pair of drinks that she shared with Joran.)

So where did they really go between 11 and 12:30?

****

Put this weirdness together -

Joran thought Madison was pretty. Joran helped Ruth win back some money. Joran gets invited to CC's by Nat's roommates, not Natalee. He tells them CC's is boring on Sundays, but yet the girls are confused (yeah right) as to why he showed up there anyway. Joran told the K's he met some girls, but when he gets to CC's at 12:30 two of those girls are gone since R and M left about 11, yet one of them -Ruth- tells Joran to Go to Natalee, She fancies him.

Where was Ruth when she told Joran this? Could they have all been at a party where Joran discovers that both Ruth and Madison have boyfriends/dates and Ruth suggests he go get Natalee? And could Joran have only met the girls at CC's at 11 to lead them to a more fun place like a SBF party? Then he goes back to CC's at Ruth's behest to get Natalee?

(There was also confusion over whether or not Joran spoke with one of Natalee's roommates when he entered CC's. One story says yes, the other says no. This could very easily mean Joran entered CC's twice and the first time he communicated with one of Natalee's roommates, about 11, just before she left 'with him' to be led to the party?)

Then Natalee asks one of her classmates, Ali A, if she wants to go with her with some guys she met. She can't get dates for 1 or 2 K's so she ends up alone with all three, going where?

Maybe to that party that they never went to because 2K were dateless? Or maybe 2K dropped J and N off at the party, The House, after 2K got bored of driving around. Recall Deepak or Satish saying to Joran they were bored so let's go to The House. Or maybe once at The House 2K were no longer bored and stayed too.

I don't know. It's just all food for thought and like a big ole game of charades trying to figure out things from so many seemingly meaningless clues that might really shed light on where Joran really went with Natalee that night. Like for example, maybe the MB girls told Joran they'd be at CC's so he could come there to lead them to a party he knew of, not so he could come to boring Sunday CC's. They are not going to tell on themselves if they went to a Rave party.

But one thing is sure; Lee AB said on AMW that she was still having flashbacks when she was at a party scene so bad she had to leave the party. Makes a person wonder what scared her so badly at a party, doesn't it? Read up on PTSD (post traumatic stress syndrome)

[Anna]

If you go with every rumor that has been reported on the internet, it will drive you nuts!

I don't think that there has even been absolute proof of Paulus making an ATM withdrawal, just media and internet rumor.

Involvement of others remains speculation at best.

It will just take you in circles.  I am going to wait and see what Hans says happened.

Have waited this long, what's another thirty days?

.

Hi Anna.

The Superior Court ruling of January, 2007 ... the ruling that denied Paulus compenstion for wrongful detainment ... is not speculative.

Beth, Jug and friends have claimed since day one that Paulus placed himself at the McDonalds in the area of the Marriot Beach on the morning that Natalee went missing.  Paulus claimed that his story was that he picked up Joran at MacDonalds at 11:00 PM on the evening of May 29, 2005.  In reality ... Paulus was discrediting Beth, Jug and Friend ... implying they were all lying.

The Superior Court ruled that Paulus' original declaration stated he was at the McDonalds on the morning  that Natalee went missing.  Inquiring minds want to know "Why the lies?"  As Art Wood stated ... "If you want to know the truth ... follow the lies."  

Janet

++++++++++++++++

Superior Court
January, 2007

“With attention to the lying declarations that the son of Paulus, Joran Andreas Petrus van der Sloot (hereafter Joran) gave about his last contact on the 30th of May 2005 with the disappeared Natalee Holloway, the suspicion is not unreasonable that he made himself guilty of a conduct that can be qualified as murder, manslaughter, or kidnapping that resulted in death.

The possible involvement of Paulus with that could then be deducted from the file with the official reports of witnesses, amongst which two people suggested a contact existed between Paulus and Natalee Holloway the night of her disappearance, and a taped report (that was given by the Prosecutor in her final note 1 to the Court). The taped information and his declaration that he picked up Joran and Natalee by the McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to the Holiday Inn, are clearly understood by the Dept. of Justice, and could in the judgement of this Superior Court, be considered as an indication of the involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.”

It does not say that Paulus was at McDonald's but only that he said that he was.

Paulus was trying to get the HI story to stick, I suspect.  He is lying to try to exonerate his son, of course.  He is also hoping to frame the security guards with his claims.

[ldstlou]

popping in real quick, my little guy still real sick so no time to read back...any breaking news?

[Tamikosmom]

Posted by Lazlo at RU:

Lazlo Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm   
Joe confirmes on Greta: The houses were bugged.

Joe on Greta last night, about the new evidence: they put bugs in the houses of the suspects at different times.

Greta-JoeT clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmDqS0dOkc

There seems to be thousands of pages from the tapped phones and bugs. 

I speculate maybe ... just maybe ... a judge ... one of Paulus' friends and/or associates ... will rule that the "new" evidence is not admissible ... the wiretapping is illegal under Dutch law.

CASE CLOSED!!

Janet.

++++++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work

[Scandi]

Revised:

She's dead before Deepak scours his car, that just makes sense. Neighbor said 1:30.
Someone with access to a boat has been contacted and a plan devised to get a crab trap and dump her in the ocean. The guys have agreed to meet the contact at the beach to get a crab trap so her body wouldn't wash ashore.
They're hiding and waiting at 2:30. A crab trap wouldn't fit in Deepak's car, would it? The contact will haul it.
Whoever they are waiting for is met and they go to the beach to get a crab trap. Puts Deepak at the beach @ 3:00.
By 4:00, Joran's home.

Very interesting Crazybabyborg, 

I just wonder if they really took her out into the ocean that night.  I remember Dompig on American TV saying a boat was known to have gone out the following night after she went missing, from the input {which is not far from the spot where Dave found the wooden cross by the beach}.

The Holloways came to town 2 days after she went missing and arrived around 3 - 4am as I remember.  If Joran and Deepak took off around say midnight and with the boat skipper friend loaded the cage {which had been stolen the night before along with a knife and ROPE} with Natalee inside and took her out, they would be back in an hour or so I would think if they did go 3 miles out which is out of the bay and into the ocean.

Remember Beth commented that Deepak and Joran didn't look dressed to be out in a bar?  That fits for me, as when they got back from dropping her, they went to the casino which is where Papa Sloot got ahold of Joran to get home as the Holloways were there.

Just thinking, but things do seem to fit using this scenario together with yours.  xox

another thought... they did not necessarily have to make final disposal that night. from leaving c&c's, they had 24 hours and another dark night to work with (the next night, just prior to group's arrival) temporary burial could very well have been used until next evening.  that night could have been used for alibis and incriminating evidence gathering (into bag for raquet club drop-off). IIRC, boat ride with koen took place the next evening - is this correct?
asking someone, not directly involved, would take more than a 3am call. may take a sit down meeting to convince a good friend to get involved with such a crime.

contradictory to my previous paragraph - why was paulus' atm card used in the middle of the night if i am supposing final burial took place the next night.

i, too, can spin my head in circles with theories - some contradictory of the previous.

How Funny Buckshot!  It is tricky to put everything together for one thing if you use links because of the changing story that was told, for one thing, and we didn't learn quite enough anyway!  Posters even poo-pooed the gardeners story, but I am thinking Jossy was right and he was truthful.

Did the meeting of the 3 with Paulus take place the afternoon of the day she went missing?  I thinks so, and that could be when the plan was effected by Paulus with the boys.  I am thinking that as someone here just said, Deepak and Joran went back to the beach to temporarily bury her by the Fisherman's Huts after calling Paulus to let him know what had happened.  They knew Steve Croes could be hired to take her out to sea, and possibly in anticipation of that, Paulus went to the ATM machine that early am to get cash to pay him.  Steve was reported to have broken into the Huts and stole the things that were missing that early morning - a police report I believe, or was reported by them.  And I think Steve was the one they were waiting for to meet at the racquet club, who did put the stolen things in the bushes around that pond realizing he needed to have more time to get the boat ready and everything prepared to make the trip out into the ocean.  I think something stopped them from taking her out that night, plus there was no boat that went out that night acc to Dompig as it was the following night,

I think Croes was the one who helped in disposal, as having stole the fishing cage and accoutrements, he then made a phone call to the Sloot house around 6:30am that same morning from the south side of the island, supposedly from Max's home.  I can not find that in a link for the life of me, but do remember reading it.  And remember Steve was away from his ship that night from what we learned.

has it ever officially been confirmed that croes was the one who broke into FH and stole trap and knife? or deductive logic? just curious...

also, it is hard to think those involved would be stupid enough to use beach at FH to temporarily bury NH. seems to "out in the open" for an unknowing tourist to stumble upon.

To the best of my knowledge Buckshot I did read it in a link.  I'm out the door foe work, but when I get back I'll try to find that. 

[klaasend]

Wiz - alot of that stuff posted at BHS comes directly from Refugees and has little fact behind it. 

I don't think much of the BHS site, they might be about 1/2 step above Refugees.

[msmarple]

refresh my memory, what did his research find?

That Joran is guilty - that the beach story was BS - that Joran took Natalee to his house.

The only contravercial part of his show is when he showed a copy of a PV where a witness (my guess is one of Renfro's pals) had made a statement about seeing Natalee do drugs.

Someone else probably will pick up on this, but he also showed the photo Joran had had made up, of himself with Natalee at a party, at a home, in MB.

[klaasend]

Just posted on the front page of SM:

renee wrote:

Lawyer: Dutch suspect in Holloway case frustrated over latest arrest
Print article
Refer to a friend
© AP
2007-11-29 19:59:21 -

ORANJESTAD, Aruba (AP) - A lawyer for a Dutch suspect in the disappearance of American teenager Natalee Holloway said Thursday his client is frustrated about his return to jail, where he has complained about a lack of reading material and family visitation rights.
Attorney Ariean de Bie spoke with reporters after a closed-door court session
on a motion seeking access to television and magazines for Joran van der Sloot, 20, who was re-arrested along with two other young men Nov. 21 on suspicion of involvement in Holloway’s death.
«Joran is not very happy about it,» de Bie said.
Authorities say new evidence warrants the detention of van der Sloot and the other suspects, Surinamese brothers Satish and Deepak Kalpoe, who were the last people known to see Holloway alive before she vanished on May 30, 2005.
But defense attorneys say they believe the three will be released soon. The lawyers say the new evidence shared with them by prosecutors is based mainly on misunderstandings of language in the suspects’ conversations.
«It is absolutely nothing,» de Bie said.
The private court session also addressed a motion from lawyers for the Kalpoe brothers _ Deepak is 24, Satish, 21 _ to have them represented by the same attorney, David Kock. Rulings on both motions are not expected before Friday.

The brothers are being held in separate jails, and Aruba’s chief prosecutor Hans Mos has said prosecutors believe they should be represented by separate attorneys to prevent a conflict of interest.
The 18-year-old from Mountain Brook, Alabama, was last seen leaving a bar with the three men hours before she was scheduled to fly home with high school classmates celebrating their graduation. Despite extensive searches, no trace has been found of Holloway.
All three suspects have denied involvement in Holloway’s disappearance and were previously released for lack of evidence.
A hearing is scheduled Friday on whether there is enough evidence to detain the Kalpoe brothers for another eight days while authorities pursue the investigation. A judge gave initial approval Monday for the detention of van der Sloot, who was arrested in the Netherlands and returned to Aruba last Friday.

[robots]

Posted by Lazlo at RU:

Lazlo Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:10 pm   
Joe confirmes on Greta: The houses were bugged.

Joe on Greta last night, about the new evidence: they put bugs in the houses of the suspects at different times.

Greta-JoeT clip: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHmDqS0dOkc

There seems to be thousands of pages from the tapped phones and bugs. 

I speculate maybe ... just maybe ... a judge ... one of Paulus' friends and/or associates ... will rule that the "new" evidence is not admissible ... the wiretapping is illegal under Dutch law.

CASE CLOSED!!

Janet.

++++++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE: … Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work

nawwww... the cover up is over

thank you Mister MOS 

[klaasend]

Posted by Lazlo at RU:

Lazlo Posted: Thu Nov 29, 2007 2:25 pm
   
Joran also not allowed former lawyer?

It has been mentioned before that Kalpoe brothers were not allowed to be presented by lawyers from the same law office.

But according to the Dutch news, Joran has a new Aruban lawyer also: Ariean de Bie.

Perhaps due to all the precautions Joran is not allowed to be represented at this point by somone working at the same law office as his father, or did DiCarlo step back? 

[Anna]

Wow, I have never seen so much wild and unsubstantiated speculation posted here before!  No way to even begin to refute it.

I don't believe Paulus contacted anybody from the PIMPS for anything as even he is not that stupid and he had adult friends who owed him favors.

That said, I am for sure going to await Hans Mos on this as this is getting farther from anything that I know to be even close to verified.

Will leave the speculations to the rest of you and check back this evening or periodically for ruling on Kalpoes detention.
Not going to spin in circles based on pure rumor, most of which came directly from the AHATA rumor mill. 

[Tylergal]

Dilma Arends reported that cell records showed that Deepak went back to the beach - on BOR. June/July 05. Never heard anything else about it.

that would certainly open the window for the sloots to "pass the buck" with regard to responsibility and person last with natalee holloway.

one of the kalpoe brothers (probably deepak) will get the most jail time of the three.

Also, the reason Joe brought up "their rooms" were bugged.  He means K2, not the sporter, Heavenforbid, he would deny that Joran has a room or that there are "bugs" in Holland, if that was the case.

[San]

Why on earth would Paulus contact any of those kids when he had mature, willing friends such as Vocking and vdStratten who would have enough sense to keep their traps shut?

My list of those involved has shrunk over the last year as no one has come forward spilling the beans.  Who would want to live under this cloud for Joran?

Paulus never lost control of things and certainly I can't see him involving a gang of juvenile delinquents in something this career ending.

MO

His career was over when Natalee took her last breath.  My mind flips about Paulus' involvement.  Did he assist or participate.  Paulus is a criminal and has a criminal mind just like Joran.  Deepak said to Joran you are just like your father.