Natalee Case Discussion #697 11/29 - 11/30/2007

[NYC_lover]

Wrote at RU:

Aruba's judicial system

Overview:

1. Aruba Criminal system is mirrored after the Dutch criminal justice system

2. Traditionally distinguishes itself from other criminal justice systems including the U.S. on many aspects including the severity of sanctions imposed

3. Basic 2 categories of criminal offenses: (i) felonies equivalent (“misdrijf”) and (ii) misdemeanor (“overtreding”)

Attorneys

4. Appointed by the State or privately engaged

5. Admitted to the bar of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba

Duties and powers of the Prosecutor

6. Limited & specific powers:

7. Denominated as chief of investigation by law. Rarely directly involved in the investigation, usually provides general instructions and police in charge of investigative activities.

8. Prosecutorial decisions. Monopoly on which cases go to court. If prosecutor chooses to dismiss a case, that decision can be appealed to the Appellate Court, in which case an order to prosecute could follow. Government/executive branch does not have the power to take prosecutorial desicions.

9. Prosecuting attorney at trial

10. Execution of any sentence imposed

Police investigation

11. Under supervision of prosecutor

12. Suspect must be informed of his rights

13. Suspect has the right to an attorney and not to incriminate himself

14. Hours of investigation limited. No investigation b/w 22:00 and 08:00

15. Written record is made of all interrogations, not a complete transcript, which will go on file

Courts & judges

16. All judges appointed by the Queen. Not through elections or political appointments.

17. Appointed for life.

18. Judges must follow special, rigorous training of 6 years, to qualify for appointment.

19. Alternate judges can be appointed based on trial experience & specific expertise

20. Trial by 1 judge in Court of First Instance of Aruba

21. Appeals handled by 3 judges of the Common Courts of Appeals of the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba

22. Appeals at the Supreme Court in the Hague, Netherlands

23. Decision of the supreme court do no constitute legally binding precedent, there’s no official stare decisis. Although lower courts tend to follow supreme court views.

24. Role of the examining judge: (i) during pre-trial to independently examine the legality of procedural aspects & well-being of suspects; (ii) upon instruction of the trialing judge to examine or cross-examine witnesses at request of defense; can’t take the role of a trial judge.

25. Examining judge as a rule not the same individual as trialing judge, to ensure objectivity and impartialness

Pre-trial

26. Pre-trial detention possible in cases of felonies in case that there are:

“... facts and/or circumstances that can justify a reasonable suspicion of involvement in a(ny) criminal act ...”

27. Various phases of detention

- Detention (“aanhouding”): detention for up to six (6) hours; followed by release or

- Arrest/detention (“inverzekeringstelling”): per order of the prosecutor plus 2 X 48 hours

- Examining-judge review of the procedural legality of the first 72 hours of detention

- Detention (“bewaring”): extension of 8 days (so far total 10 days)

- Detention (“gevangenhouding”): extensions and subsequent extensions, possibly leading up to the date of the trial

28. During this phase the defense has remedies to file for suspension of detention and/or other injunctive measures

29. Place of detention. First 10 days usually a police station, after that to the correction facility

Trial

30. Suspects have right to trial within a reasonable period of time

31. Public hearing

32. No trial by jury, but by a professional judge

33. No plea-bargaining

34. No death penalty

35. No permission required by the prosecutor from the court to go to trial

36. Indictment presented, at the prerogative of the prosecutor, after investigations have taken place

37. Defense will have chance to cross-examine witnesses before an examining judge

38. Maximum sentences: (i) Life imprisonment; or (ii) limited time. Section 11 Criminal Code

39. Maximum sentence of limited time sentence is 20 years i.e. 15 plus 5

40. Life sentencing has been issued in the past by the Courts.

41. Death sentence abolished since late 1800’s and since then no serious attempts to re-instate same.

Principles of legality (nulla poena)

42. no conduct can be characterized as criminal, unless defined by a specific statute

43. all legal statutes are subject no very strict interpretation

44. newly imposed (heavier sanctioning) can’t be imposed on a suspect retroactively

45. only penalties imposed by statutes may be applied.

Requirements of criminal act in general

46. (a) conduct by a person; (b) which falls under the definition of an offense; (c) is unlawful; and (4) for which the perpetrator must be held guilty

Justification grounds for criminal acts

47. (a) self defennce (“noodweer”); (b) official orders by an authorized person (”ambtelijk bevel”); (c) hardship/necessity (“noodtoestand”)

Access to information in pre-trial stage

48. No obligation by the prosecutor a/o investigating officers to disclose details of investigation to third parties, incl. the media

49. Press conferences held by prosecution not customary

50. Prosecutor’s office has limited authority to disclose details of the investigation to the suspects

Legal age & prosecution

51. Below 18 years is considered a minor

52. In principle no jail time, but if convicted of a felony, placed at disposal of the Government a/o equivalent to “juvenile hall” a/o in combination with half of an adult sentence. In case of life sentence, maximum of 10 years

Note:
Although this article has been prepared carefully, it may only serve as a summary of the facts presented and its contents should not be relied upon blindly. The text is intended only as an overview of fundamental regulations of the subject and as such may contain inaccuracies and simplifications in its description of the applicable laws, regulations and case law. Application of rules and regulations in each case are on account of special circumstances and it is recommended that advice of counsel be sought in dealing with the application of the law.

[klaasend]

http://www.aruba-bb.com/viewtopic.php?t=51825

Earthquake Was Too Deep To Produce A Tsunami



November 29th 2007, Aruba.



ORANJESTAD-Chaos through out many Caribbean islands, as a powerful
magnitude 7.4 earthquake shook the region at exactly 03:00pm
(02:00pm EST) this afternoon. The earthquake was centered 26 miles
southeast of Roseau, the capital of Dominica, where the shaking lasted
for 20 seconds.

The quake was felt hundreds of miles away from the epicenter, in Puerto
Rico to the west, and Venezuela and Suriname on the South American
continent. The quake send office workers and shoppers on several
islands fleeing into the streets.

Martinique Hardest Hit

Minor injuries have been reported on the French island of Martinique. A
government official said police and fire-fighters were responding to
hundreds of calls for help. Fortunately, no casualties have been reported.
The quake collapsed the roofs of a bank and store in the capital Fort-de-
France.

No Tsunami Threat Caribbean Region

The quake struck at a depth of 90 miles, according to the U.S. Geological
Survey (UGS). The Pacific Tsunami Warning Center in Hawaii said the
quake was too deep to generate a destructive tsunami, that could have
affected many islands in the region and coastal countries of the Americas
located near the Caribbean basin. The last tsunami to have affected the
Caribbean happened in 1946, killing 1,800 people. The tsunami was
triggered by a magnitude 8.6 earthquake near the Dominican Republic.

Many Islands Felt The Tremor

In Trinidad, the shaking sent workers streaming out of office towers into
the streets of the capital, Port-of-Spain. The quake did not disrupt
production at Trinidad state-owned oil refinery, Petrotrin. The refinery
produces 160,000 barrels of refined gasoline, diesel and oil daily for
domestic use and export to countries including the United States.

Thousands more ran outside on the island of St. Maarten. Flight's at
Princess Juliana International Airport (one of the busiest in the region)
were briefly suspended. In Guyana, lawmakers evacuated the South
American country's parliament building.

In St. Lucia, Julian Dubios, deputy director of the national emergency
management organization, said the quake caused some panic and broke
water lines but did not appear to cause severe damage. In the capital,
Castriers, people saw buildings swaying but not collapsing. A glass door
of one company was shattered.

St. Lucia resident Annie Ellis said the quake was the strongest she has
experienced. "In all my years, I have never felt any earthquake so
powerful," said the 100-year-old Ellis. "And it lasted such a long time."

In Antigua, islanders said the shaking lasted about 30 seconds. Antigua
resident Jessie Kentish, said he has not felt such powerful qauke like that
in a very long time.

Caribbean Quake Triggers False Alarms in California

The earthquake that shook the Caribbean region this afternoon triggered
a series of false quake alarms in California. The computers at USG,
picked up energy coming out of the Caribbean and treated it as local
seismic activity. The fake quakes began registering nine minutes after the
Caribbean quake.


Caribbean Major Earthquakes

Major earthquakes are not common in the Caribbean region, but the
volcanic chain that makes up the Caribbean islands is active, with several
light tremors a day. On average, a major earthquake shakes the
Caribbean every 50 years. A dozen earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or
greater have occurred in the last 500 years, each capable of creating a
tsunami.

[Frank]

Lawyers are competitive and have large egos, it's part of being successful. Few lawyers, ever, get an audience like this. Janssen hid, couldn't emotionally or professionally handle it.

Mos has an opportunity few get but often dream about. It's the bottom of the ninth, seventh game of the world series.

Janet is praying for a miracle and I'm praying for her praying. But Mos is not sunbathing during the day, he's pale and has been working.

This is the shot we've wanted and WE MUST be positive, we have no choice.

We have a ship of the highest caliber focused and a prosecutor focused so here it is.

[klaasend]

Lawyers are competitive and have large egos, it's part of being successful. Few lawyers, ever, get an audience like this. Janssen hid, couldn't emotionally or professionally handle it.

Mos has an opportunity few get but often dream about. It's the bottom of the ninth, seventh game of the world series.

Janet is praying for a miracle and I'm praying for her praying. But Mos is not sunbathing during the day, he's pale and has been working.

This is the shot we've wanted and WE MUST be positive, we have no choice.

We have a ship of the highest caliber focused and a prosecutor focused so here it is.

I agree Frank !

[klaasend]

GOODNIGHT ALL!

[IBE]

I agree Robots....

this is it...

I would bet but it's Christmas time and I am broke... 

but.... I agree with you...

good nite monkeys...

keep the faith!

heating oil is bustin all of us up here..
i have been splitting wood for 4 years

i was told i was crazy - who is crazy now 

Well, I hope you are right about this.  That would be a wonderful Christmas present for all and a source of comfort for this family to bring her home to Sweet Home Alabama where she belongs.

O/T We have the same thing here with propane being un affordable.  If it got really cold, would be very expensive.  Supplementing with space heaters which are dangerous.

.

its crazy  OIL for homes 3.25 a gallon and going up
propane - worse
i have oil and propane and wood

i suspect i will be giving most of the wood away because there are too many people
that need it and i use it as a back up....i will keep a couple cord and try to help some folks
NOT the young folks that should have been cutting it, but the older folks will get it
 

im so mean 

Not mean, but wise! Saw a splitter on TV that was electric and could be put in a garage. Silk long underwear helps to keep warm and light weight. Kind of expensive but lasts a long time.

J4N and all missing persons.

[ldstlou]

i still think one of the k2 will crack like a lobster 

I think it will be satish. We haven't heard from his lawyer much either...hhhmmm...I don't remember hearing satish is pleading the 5th.
Sing like a canary satish!! sing!!!

[ldstlou]

In other words, Joran may have never had a missing pair of shoes at all, but the story of the missing shoes was in place just to implicate the Kalpoes and give Joran an option of placing them at the beach and last to have an opportunity to kill her.

Exactly!

That's what Robots and I were talking about with all that SHOE talk that everybody got so mad at us for.

We were trying to say that very thing.

And got told to go eat a bug, if I recall.

.

?? someone wanted you and robots to eat a bug. yuuuuccckk!
No bugs for Anna and Robots!!!
We only want the bugs for j2k!!

[ldstlou]

In other words, Joran may have never had a missing pair of shoes at all, but the story of the missing shoes was in place just to implicate the Kalpoes and give Joran an option of placing them at the beach and last to have an opportunity to kill her.

Exactly!

That's what Robots and I were talking about with all that SHOE talk that everybody got so mad at us for.

We were trying to say that very thing.

And got told to go eat a bug, if I recall.

.

I'm having chocolate covered grasshoppers. Care to join me?

ok...putting my breakfast in the trash...lol....all the bug talk ruined my appetite!! I missed some good bug talk last night!!! lol thank goodness!! lol
Good Morning by the way Monkeys!!

[ldstlou]

In other words, Joran may have never had a missing pair of shoes at all, but the story of the missing shoes was in place just to implicate the Kalpoes and give Joran an option of placing them at the beach and last to have an opportunity to kill her.

Exactly!

That's what Robots and I were talking about with all that SHOE talk that everybody got so mad at us for.

We were trying to say that very thing.

And got told to go eat a bug, if I recall.

.

Anna

I remember all that.

Ado

Yes, other posters were really nasty about it and told us to basically not talk about the shoes any more.

AND I REMEMBER YOUR THEORY THAT JORAN STOLE A PAIR OF SIZE 14 from the Racquet club.  That makes so much sense to me since the Dutch interrogator proved Joran wore a 10.5 per Jossy.

He planted those so to prove he was somewhere he wasn't and to get the Kalpoes to go get them making them the last ones with Natalee on the supposed beach, etc.

Hope I am not ordered to eat any bugs for saying this again.

.

sending a cinnamon roll and a good cup of coffee your way Anna!!
Spiders for Robots since he likes them!!
The theory makes sense to me!!!

[ldstlou]

That's exactly why I think the shoes are important.  Joran made way too big a deal out of the shoes on Greta.  Either those were exactly the shoes he was wearing or he wanted us to believe it. 

I agree, the whole shoe thing may have been a ruse to pin it on the Kalpoes.  That's why the shoes ARE important.

I am reading Beth's book for the 2nd time. When she was being read joran's statements by her lawyer....the ones where she had no idea what the questions were that were being asked, only joran's answers, he says in his 7:30pm statement on June 10th:
"...My father told us that our e-mails would be read and our cell phones would be bugged. He told us to get our stories straight and then send e-mails. We should use the hard drive to nail an alibi. First, all three of us have to agree on the story and stick to it. If we keep calm and all our stories match, they will let us go in 10 days. My father said to me, "I hope she is alive. But not a big chance for that."

Could it be, that j2k called paulus when they could not get an unconscious Natalee to wake up. Paulus sent the boys home to "nail and alibi", stops at the atm and calls someone to take care of Natalee's body. At the time paulus turns Natalee over to the unknown person, she is unconscious, but alive. If joe t really did give joran a lie detector, it would be the reason he would pass it, he really was not involved in Natalee's body being dissappeared, and the k2 brothers either. The boys go home and wait and e-mail and each other while paulus takes care of hiding Natalee. It is also the reason why in the police car, they can say they don't know if she is alive...they don't KNOW as in have witnessed it, but they KNOW she isn't. Deepak then states, your own father, unbelieveable...because it is paulus and the unknown, or possibly just paulus alone, who knows where Natalee has been placed. The next day, Paulus goes to check on Natalee. Whether she has made it through the night or not, gosh I hate saying this, he can't have Natalee alive at this point. She is then moved to her final resting place.
The shoes could either be a ruse, or left by the unknown, if paulus did not hide Natalee by himself...and they need to be answered for.

[adoronron]

i still say PUKE boy was driving a vehicle that night

remember when k2 were talking about a flat tire and it was jorans idea according to K2 ( that whole story)

see, the excuse for joran having to drive that night was because his buddies broke down and joran had to go to the rescue to help them (like meathead would even know how to change a tire"

MORE BULL CRAP

i can see it
i can smell it

it stinks like paulus and joran

Robots is dead on about Joran driving that night. If you go back and read the Depak interrogations you'll see the ALE asking Depak numerous times if Joran knows how to drive. The ALE knew the Sloot jeep or whatever it is was out and about the night Natalee disappeared.
I don't think initially Paulus was aware that Joran had taken the jeep out that night.When Paulus did find out he changed his story. Instead of maintaining he slept all night all of a sudden he confesses he picked up Joran and Natalee that night. He did this because he realized there could be evidence that Natalee had been in the jeep and if the ALE found it the story line he and J2K were holding to would fall apart. As I recall his (paulus) final statement about the jeep being out at night was he picked them up in the jeep at 4 AM which is about the time Joran would be out hiding Natalee. (Shortly after looking up overdose info on the internet at home.) By saying he picked them up, he covered the possibility of the ALE asking how come they found evidence of Natalee having been in the jeep.
I don't think Natalee was ever at the Sloot compound, but she was in that jeep.

Ado

[chelebele]

ldstlou - that would also explain why no one has cracked about the location of the body...they may not know. Paulus may not even know if he called someone to "take care of it" That way, they could all pass lie detector tests regarding whether she is alive, and whether or not they know where the body is.....    interesting.

[Helen Back]

I'm going to wait a bit longer, w.r.t., Mos.

I still remember when DumbPig first took charge. Yup. I'm going to wait a bit.

And the original main Aruba LE investigators are still in their lead positions in the investigation.

Yup. I'm going to wait a bit longer before I'm all "rah! rah!" and all hopping on the bandwagon. They (ALE/Dutch) have to first deliver something substantial first, especially considering their past history.

I understand.  Keep in mind Mos is the prosecutor and Dompig was just the acting Police Chief.  There are only a few of the original ALE on the case and they are hand picked by the special KLPD team. 

Morning monkeys!

I agree, Klaas.  I would add that one is skeeeeerrrry smart and one ........can't rub two thoughts together!

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - that would also explain why no one has cracked about the location of the body...they may not know. Paulus may not even know if he called someone to "take care of it" That way, they could all pass lie detector tests regarding whether she is alive, and whether or not they know where the body is.....    interesting.

I agree, but I still tend to think paulus was in on hiding Natalee.  The creep was on top of everything from moment one....already thinking of alibis and interogations! He has a criminal mind!! He would have wanted as few people involved as possible, and he would have wanted complete control. He would have had to have known for himself that Natalee was some place where she would never be found to implicate his boy!!

[BUCKSHOT]

i still say PUKE boy was driving a vehicle that night

remember when k2 were talking about a flat tire and it was jorans idea according to K2 ( that whole story)

see, the excuse for joran having to drive that night was because his buddies broke down and joran had to go to the rescue to help them (like meathead would even know how to change a tire"

MORE BULL CRAP

i can see it
i can smell it

it stinks like paulus and joran

Robots is dead on about Joran driving that night. If you go back and read the Depak interrogations you'll see the ALE asking Depak numerous times if Joran knows how to drive. The ALE knew the Sloot jeep or whatever it is was out and about the night Natalee disappeared.
I don't think initially Paulus was aware that Joran had taken the jeep out that night.When Paulus did find out he changed his story. Instead of maintaining he slept all night all of a sudden he confesses he picked up Joran and Natalee that night. He did this because he realized there could be evidence that Natalee had been in the jeep and if the ALE found it the story line he and J2K were holding to would fall apart. As I recall his (paulus) final statement about the jeep being out at night was he picked them up in the jeep at 4 AM which is about the time Joran would be out hiding Natalee. (Shortly after looking up overdose info on the internet at home.) By saying he picked them up, he covered the possibility of the ALE asking how come they found evidence of Natalee having been in the jeep.
I don't think Natalee was ever at the Sloot compound, but she was in that jeep.

Ado

paulus and joran and natalee at mcdonalds at 4am. i remember this being a reason for paulus' denial of money to be paid by aruban govt.  i think it was believed (by the court) that paulus had more than one contact with natalee that fateful evening.

so............ in looking at a ruling by its own (aruban) court, this info sure should play a major role, too, in discrediting the timeline set forth by the perpetrators.  paulus was sleeping, joran home at 4am by a deepak ride / satish ride / walk home. 

question: does the fact that paulus be longer deemed a suspect in the case through a previous ruling interfere with MOS trying to initiate charges against him at this stage. i do not know the answer to this question. would MOS have to have the ruling overturned / reversed before initiating charges against paulus or could new evidence simply allow for this to happen?

[Leslie]

Wrote at RU:
Aruba's judicial system
<snipped>

I posted this information on November 24, 2007 at 3:20 PM.  Please don't give RU credit for research.  
http://www.aruba.com/about/judicialsystem.php

[Nut44x4]

ldstlou - that would also explain why no one has cracked about the location of the body...they may not know. Paulus may not even know if he called someone to "take care of it" That way, they could all pass lie detector tests regarding whether she is alive, and whether or not they know where the body is.....    interesting.

Somehow, I have always had a feeling that PappaSloot would NOT want Joran involved in the final stages....for many reasons. The sea disposal did not involve J2K.

[Leslie]

Diario
http://www.diarioaruba.com/
Amigoe
http://www.amigoe.com/english/
BonDia
http://www.cspnv.com/
Solo di Pueblo
http://www.solodipueblo.com/
Aruba Today
http://www.arubatoday.com/
24ora
http://www.24ora.com/
Translator:
http://papiamentu.donamaro.nl

[ldstlou]

ldstlou - that would also explain why no one has cracked about the location of the body...they may not know. Paulus may not even know if he called someone to "take care of it" That way, they could all pass lie detector tests regarding whether she is alive, and whether or not they know where the body is.....    interesting.

Somehow, I have always had a feeling that PappaSloot would NOT want Joran involved in the final stages....for many reasons. The sea disposal did not involve J2K.

In my heart I am sure of this too. It's why the boys haven't cracked...they told everything else...but not where Natalee is...because they don't know..it was all paulus. When Paulus took over, I believe Natalee was unconscious, joran could not revive her just as he told freddie, but she was still alive. It was when paulus took over that she met her demise. Now was it by accident or did he kill her? When he took over, and decided to cover for joran, he could NOT have Natalee alive after that.