Natalee Case Discussion #698 11/30/2007

[robots]

Posted at Scrux:

FierlJepper

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Netherlands
 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

I actually don't think there's a big problem with the release of the K2. They do remain suspects, it's only a legal technicality around prolonging pre-arrests that prevented them from remaining detained. The only thing that changes now is that the K2 can align their stories better if they are re-arrested (but what's new, they had 2.5 years to do this...). And hey, the good news is that the judge had said that that the evidence "produces serious grounds for the suspicion, etc.". This is very promising information for bringing the case to trial.

Based on all the facts know to us tho, I still believe the Kalpoes played a different (more minor) role in the whole crime than Joran. In this context I am a bit worried that Mos said that all three had more or less the same evidence against them (12 (S), 13 (D) and 14(J) pages). Still the judge decided to keep Joran detained, so the 14-13 = 1 page must make the difference.

The thing that bothers me most is that if K2 played a minor role in the cover-up of traces, disposal of the body or whatever there "supporting act" was, they still haven't incriminated Joran.

How about this scenario:

1. 1:40 J&N dropped off by K2
2. 2:00 K2 home
3. 2:26 call - J explains to D that something happened and he needs transport
4. 2:35 D. sends S. to beach in his car to help J.
5. 2:45 S. finds out that N. has died. J. is very coercive and S. follows his orders. They decided to load the body on the backseat and drive to a quiet spot to discuss.
6. 2:55 D & S are seen by gardener
7. 3:00 - body is temporarily buried
8. 3:10 J dropped off near VDS house
9. 3:30 S arrives at Hooiberg and tells story to D.
10. The next day more "permanent" disposal place is established (but now with Satish' or Deepak's cell phone picked up by Venezuala islands cell tower (i.e. boat has been used).

All that time Deepak was unaware of what S & J were doing (J forbid S. to use his cell and call D.). That's why his "I'll wait for you" messages where so neutral. I still believe that the reason why Deepak never replied to the MSN messages from Joran (that he must have seen) is that he found out the truth around 3:30 when Satish arrived home.

The reason why the Kalpoes haven't simply incriminated Joran and told the truth is:
1. they don't know what happened at the beach between J & N so they have no data to incriminate him (fits very well with the K2 car conversation where Deepak says that he is not prepared to "invent what happened on the beach, since he doesn't know").
2. Satish got involved (dragged in by probably a very "fokked up" Joran that night) by helping J (and is now facing max 4 years)
3. Deepak is innocent but needs to protect his brother from going to jail.

This scenario fits the known facts (and the latest rumors) pretty well and the new evidence could be the cell tower info from May 30th (daytime). The K2 simply used their right to remain silent when confronted with the new evidence and were released since being on a boat is no evidence of a crime (unless Equusearch finds the body of course). In this scenario the whole case now relies on a confession from Joran about what happened on the beach that night. Since there is probably no new evidence about the beach events against him (except the one incremental page), it's gonna be very difficult to bring this case to trail... (J knows what happened to N. on the beach, K2 know what happened to her body).
 

yep

[blah]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[robots]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yep

[Anna]

Klaas,
That post from Sucks, er, Scrux sounds very plausible but then factor in the infiltration of the undercover cop in Holland with Joran incriminating himself.

I do believe Mos has sufficient to bring to trial.  And convict.  He is after Joran not so much the Kalpoes.

MO
.

[klaasend]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Anna]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blah,
The sweaty bastard is exempt from obstruction of justice or any such charges being a first degree relative of the main suspect.  Same as suspects can lie, first degree relatives are expected that they will assist a family member.  He said he would do anything for his son. 

Unless Paulus actually had a hand in killing Natalee, any part of the cover up he participated in is immune from prosecution.

Arleen explained this to us several times.  And of course, Paulus would know that as well.  If Kalpoes had been first degree relatives of Joran, they too would be off the hook.

Just the way Dutch law works.

We are going to have to accept what we can get from this.  It won't be anything like what we would see in this country for sure.

.

[Helen Back]

call me crazy
but i still have faith in MOS 

Robots ... I have no faith that justice will come out of Aruba.  Hans Mos may be sincere but he is lacking in an indept knowledge of Dutch law as it pertains to what evidence is sufficient to warrant continued detention of a suspect. The defence lawyers were adament right up Joran and Deepak's release that the prosecutor's evidence was insufficient and ... the defence lawyers were right ... their contentions and the judge's reasoning for his ruling were one.

That being said ... I still have faith that justice for Natalee Holloway will prevail ... ultimately good always triump evil.

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked. A man reaps what he sows

Robots ... maybe ... just maybe ... God's instrument to attain that outcome will be none other than ... an investigation by the FBI into the corrupt Aruban investigation.

Have a good day.

Janet

+++++++++++++++

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/aruba.holloway/index.html

Hans Mos
CNN
November 30, 2007

The judge reasoned Friday that "the new evidence, together with the existing evidence in this case, produce serious grounds for the suspicion of some kind of aiding and abetting, of covering up the traces of a crime committed or of the disposing of a corpse," prosecutors said.

But people accused of those crimes do not qualify for pretrial detention under Aruban law, Mos told reporters.


Art Wood
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
December 1, 2005

ART WOOD, FORMER SECRET SERVICE AGENT: Absolutely. Absolutely. There's a lot that Americans can do through the State Department. I want to remind everybody that Natalee Holloway was a U.S. citizen. Once the Aruban authorities are done investigating this case, the FBI can still conduct an investigation.

Janet,

I must take exception with the statement that Mr. Mos is lacking an in-depth understanding of Dutch law regarding the evidence his office has presented.   I think we should consider that it's a delicate balance between presenting enough to keep them detained, and not revealing much of the evidence they have.  They Kalpoes have been given an opportunity to clarify their depositions from 2 1/2 years ago, and have also had the opportunity to tell the truth about what happened that night.

If they didn't take the opportunity, the hole they have dug gets a little deeper.  We don't know what Mos is holding back, and unlike US law, where all information must be shared with the opposition party, my understanding is that Mos can hold evidence to reveal at the trial without having shared it with the defense.

I also understand that the judges who make pre-trial rulings are not the same judges who will preside at the trial.

Someone please correct me if this is not the case.

Helen

[blah]

Hello good folks. I admit I haven't read all of the pages so I hope I am not being redundant. Maybe I am being over optimistic, but what I hear from the Aruban court may not be bad news. I am hoping this group is informed enough to evaluate my perspective, and that I am brave enough to post my interpretation:)

The court released the 2 brothers NOT because they were innocent and not because of a lack of evidence, but because the crime of which the evidence suggests they are guilty is that of illegally disposing of a body. The reason being that in order to continue the pre arrest the crime that the evidence supports has to be punishable by a sentence of 4 years, and this particular crime is punishable by a maximum sentence of 3 years. Is this correct?

That's what some of us have been screaming! but some not listening. 

Yes, and I think you are even correct on the four years versus three years.  Any crime that carries a maximum of less that four years does not require pretrial detention.

Is this why the sweaty one is not arrested?  If his part was only to help with the cover-up and disposal of the body - that's not a big enough crime for a pretrial detention or whatever they call it now a days?

What happens if the total of ALL crimes commited total over 4 years?  Doesnt matter - they just go with the maximum for each to determine if they can be held or not?

Paulus i'm guessing at minumum is guilty of:
hiding or desecrating a body
tampering with evidence
contempt of court
obstruction of justice
contributing to the delinquency of a minor
sweating like a pig


if not:
rape
kidnapping
whatever the crime is for drugging someone
murder or manslaughter

[Spock]

Chris Lejuez (SP) said the punishment for the disposal of a body and evidence in Aruba is a maximum of 3 years.

So you can get 3 years if you cover up a killing and 15 years if you don't. Sounds like the law if telling you to cover it up.

[Tamikosmom]

Posted at Scrux:

FierlJepper

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Netherlands
 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

I actually don't think there's a big problem with the release of the K2. They do remain suspects, it's only a legal technicality around prolonging pre-arrests that prevented them from remaining detained. The only thing that changes now is that the K2 can align their stories better if they are re-arrested (but what's new, they had 2.5 years to do this...). And hey, the good news is that the judge had said that that the evidence "produces serious grounds for the suspicion, etc.". This is very promising information for bringing the case to trial.

Based on all the facts know to us tho, I still believe the Kalpoes played a different (more minor) role in the whole crime than Joran. In this context I am a bit worried that Mos said that all three had more or less the same evidence against them (12 (S), 13 (D) and 14(J) pages). Still the judge decided to keep Joran detained, so the 14-13 = 1 page must make the difference.

The thing that bothers me most is that if K2 played a minor role in the cover-up of traces, disposal of the body or whatever there "supporting act" was, they still haven't incriminated Joran.

How about this scenario:

1. 1:40 J&N dropped off by K2
2. 2:00 K2 home
3. 2:26 call - J explains to D that something happened and he needs transport
4. 2:35 D. sends S. to beach in his car to help J.
5. 2:45 S. finds out that N. has died. J. is very coercive and S. follows his orders. They decided to load the body on the backseat and drive to a quiet spot to discuss.
6. 2:55 D & S are seen by gardener
7. 3:00 - body is temporarily buried
8. 3:10 J dropped off near VDS house
9. 3:30 S arrives at Hooiberg and tells story to D.
10. The next day more "permanent" disposal place is established (but now with Satish' or Deepak's cell phone picked up by Venezuala islands cell tower (i.e. boat has been used).

All that time Deepak was unaware of what S & J were doing (J forbid S. to use his cell and call D.). That's why his "I'll wait for you" messages where so neutral. I still believe that the reason why Deepak never replied to the MSN messages from Joran (that he must have seen) is that he found out the truth around 3:30 when Satish arrived home.

The reason why the Kalpoes haven't simply incriminated Joran and told the truth is:
1. they don't know what happened at the beach between J & N so they have no data to incriminate him (fits very well with the K2 car conversation where Deepak says that he is not prepared to "invent what happened on the beach, since he doesn't know").
2. Satish got involved (dragged in by probably a very "fokked up" Joran that night) by helping J (and is now facing max 4 years)
3. Deepak is innocent but needs to protect his brother from going to jail.

This scenario fits the known facts (and the latest rumors) pretty well and the new evidence could be the cell tower info from May 30th (daytime). The K2 simply used their right to remain silent when confronted with the new evidence and were released since being on a boat is no evidence of a crime (unless Equusearch finds the body of course). In this scenario the whole case now relies on a confession from Joran about what happened on the beach that night. Since there is probably no new evidence about the beach events against him (except the one incremental page), it's gonna be very difficult to bring this case to trail... (J knows what happened to N. on the beach, K2 know what happened to her body).
 

Where does Paulus fit into FierlJepper's scenerio?  Even Hans Mos concedes in the Greta interview that Paulus played a role.

Janet

++++++++

Hans Mos
On the Record w/ Greta
November 27, 2007

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,313168,00.html

MOS: That's a good question. Yes, we thought we did because there was new evidence gained after the moment that they were released, which was two years ago. And it's quite a lot of evidence, at least a lot of material, and there's a lot of it is evidence, and the evidence is just material, but they have to be confronted with that because they were never confronted with those findings.

We progress in this investigation quite a lot, and they didn't -- don't even know what we got in the meantime. So we had to confront them with it. They are suspects, each of them, and they are witnesses against the other, possible. So we have to question them.

And what we think is very important, at least the Dutch suspect, instead of the two Surinams, and his father, who was one way or another involved in this case, has said in interviews that they are willing to talk. They are willing to disclose what happened in the past at a time set by them. And we think it is very important that this is the time to disclose this information to the public and to us because their point of view is, their son or this suspect, this Dutch suspect, didn't do anything, but he has information and he doesn't give it. We think that's unthinkable.

[Anna]

When there has been a trial and a conviction, the FBI has no basis for conducting an investigation.  If Joran is convicted, that's it.

In any event, the FBI can only conduct investigations where invited.  I don't think Aruba will do that.  This is it as far as any justice we are going to see in this investigation. 

My prayers are that Hans Mos will be successful in his endeavors and bring this to a trial with a conviction of these charges of voluntary manslaughter against Joran.  It's not much but better than nothing, IMO only.

.

[blah]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blah,
The sweaty bastard is exempt from obstruction of justice or any such charges being a first degree relative of the main suspect.  Same as suspects can lie, first degree relatives are expected that they will assist a family member.  He said he would do anything for his son. 

Unless Paulus actually had a hand in killing Natalee, any part of the cover up he participated in is immune from prosecution.

Arleen explained this to us several times.  And of course, Paulus would know that as well.  If Kalpoes had been first degree relatives of Joran, they too would be off the hook.

Just the way Dutch law works.

We are going to have to accept what we can get from this.  It won't be anything like what we would see in this country for sure.

.

Arlene is full of shit.

[Anna]

No matter how much Paulus is involved in cover up, obstruction, etc. he is not prosecutable unless he was a participant in the original crime.

He is immune from prosecution as a first degree relative of the one main suspect.

[NYC_lover]

No idea, or u all know.
RTL4 nieuws report: OM Aruba goes in appeal, to the Kalpoes.

[JustMeT]

Posted at Scrux:

FierlJepper

Joined: 09 Jun 2007
Posts: 155
Location: Netherlands
 Posted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject:   

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 

I actually don't think there's a big problem with the release of the K2. They do remain suspects, it's only a legal technicality around prolonging pre-arrests that prevented them from remaining detained. The only thing that changes now is that the K2 can align their stories better if they are re-arrested (but what's new, they had 2.5 years to do this...). And hey, the good news is that the judge had said that that the evidence "produces serious grounds for the suspicion, etc.". This is very promising information for bringing the case to trial.

Based on all the facts know to us tho, I still believe the Kalpoes played a different (more minor) role in the whole crime than Joran. In this context I am a bit worried that Mos said that all three had more or less the same evidence against them (12 (S), 13 (D) and 14(J) pages). Still the judge decided to keep Joran detained, so the 14-13 = 1 page must make the difference.

The thing that bothers me most is that if K2 played a minor role in the cover-up of traces, disposal of the body or whatever there "supporting act" was, they still haven't incriminated Joran.

How about this scenario:

1. 1:40 J&N dropped off by K2
2. 2:00 K2 home
3. 2:26 call - J explains to D that something happened and he needs transport
4. 2:35 D. sends S. to beach in his car to help J.
5. 2:45 S. finds out that N. has died. J. is very coercive and S. follows his orders. They decided to load the body on the backseat and drive to a quiet spot to discuss.
6. 2:55 D & S are seen by gardener
7. 3:00 - body is temporarily buried
8. 3:10 J dropped off near VDS house
9. 3:30 S arrives at Hooiberg and tells story to D.
10. The next day more "permanent" disposal place is established (but now with Satish' or Deepak's cell phone picked up by Venezuala islands cell tower (i.e. boat has been used).

All that time Deepak was unaware of what S & J were doing (J forbid S. to use his cell and call D.). That's why his "I'll wait for you" messages where so neutral. I still believe that the reason why Deepak never replied to the MSN messages from Joran (that he must have seen) is that he found out the truth around 3:30 when Satish arrived home.

The reason why the Kalpoes haven't simply incriminated Joran and told the truth is:
1. they don't know what happened at the beach between J & N so they have no data to incriminate him (fits very well with the K2 car conversation where Deepak says that he is not prepared to "invent what happened on the beach, since he doesn't know").
2. Satish got involved (dragged in by probably a very "fokked up" Joran that night) by helping J (and is now facing max 4 years)
3. Deepak is innocent but needs to protect his brother from going to jail.

This scenario fits the known facts (and the latest rumors) pretty well and the new evidence could be the cell tower info from May 30th (daytime). The K2 simply used their right to remain silent when confronted with the new evidence and were released since being on a boat is no evidence of a crime (unless Equusearch finds the body of course). In this scenario the whole case now relies on a confession from Joran about what happened on the beach that night. Since there is probably no new evidence about the beach events against him (except the one incremental page), it's gonna be very difficult to bring this case to trail... (J knows what happened to N. on the beach, K2 know what happened to her body).
 

yep

Yah, I totally agree..some what.

[Anna]

get this TRIAL going MOS

ARREST THAT SWEATY BASTARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Blah,
The sweaty bastard is exempt from obstruction of justice or any such charges being a first degree relative of the main suspect.  Same as suspects can lie, first degree relatives are expected that they will assist a family member.  He said he would do anything for his son. 

Unless Paulus actually had a hand in killing Natalee, any part of the cover up he participated in is immune from prosecution.

Arleen explained this to us several times.  And of course, Paulus would know that as well.  If Kalpoes had been first degree relatives of Joran, they too would be off the hook.

Just the way Dutch law works.

We are going to have to accept what we can get from this.  It won't be anything like what we would see in this country for sure.

.

Arlene is full of shit.

She is but nonetheless, we hear Mos say Paulus is involved but we see no arrest.  Why?  Because he is not prosecutable under their law.  That is, if he only assisted in the cover up.  He would have had to participate actively in the original crime to be charged with anything.

Under Dutch law, if you rob a bank and yo mama hides you out in her basement, they are not going to put your momma in jail for doing that.  It is "expected" that family will try to help their budding criminals. 

I don't like it either but it is the reality of the situation with Paulus.

.

[KarmaRoundUp]

DANA:  I was livid when JoeT accused Jossy of fabricating evidence.
Is JoeT given any status in Aruba. 

JOSSY:  JoeT can't practice law or activily participate in any court procedings.  He's a loud mouth lawyer. 

Ha!One of my questions answered,thank you Klaas....I'll keep reading.

[Observer]

This may have been posted already but it's the first time I have seen it. It's just a Dutch Blogger commenting on Joran's BS after his book tour 


http://ongeletterdeboer.blogspot.com/

[blah]

No matter how much Paulus is involved in cover up, obstruction, etc. he is not prosecutable unless he was a participant in the original crime.

He is immune from prosecution as a first degree relative of the one main suspect.

I do not believe this, how can this be?

Are you basing this on just the word of Arlene?

If this is true, there is absoltuley no way i'm going anywhere in the "Dutch Kingdom" again because that is one really screwed up system.

[Anna]

No matter how much Paulus is involved in cover up, obstruction, etc. he is not prosecutable unless he was a participant in the original crime.

He is immune from prosecution as a first degree relative of the one main suspect.

I do not believe this, how can this be?

Are you basing this on just the word of Arlene?

If this is true, there is absolutely no way i'm going anywhere in the "Dutch Kingdom" again because that is one really screwed up system.

Well, maybe NYC or Ramm will elaborate on this aspect a bit.  It is my understanding and what Arleen said several times. 

Mos cannot re-write the laws to tailor them to this case and they are what they are.

I don't care whether or not you believe me as I am used to being called a liar on this forum but in the end the truth usually proves me right.  And you know it, too, Blah.

So why has Paulus not been arrested in YOUR opinion since you know better?