Natalee Case Discussion #699 12/1 - 12/3/2007

[Dayhiker]

When will the insanity stop?? I have lost a lot of faith in whats good and whats bad.. The sad things is that I never knew there were so many twisted individuals in the world but seeing the same dirt bags cheering for these killers just is too much to watch or hear on tv.. I come here just to see if by chance that someone has a conscience on that island but so far not a one.. I have a hard time putting too much faith in finding Natalee in the ocean but I do hope I'm wrong.. I just feel that everyone on that island is playing a cruel game and I have a hard time watching or hearing these idiots on tv.. This is the most simple case in the world and this would of been closed the first 24 hours if they wanted it solved.. Well hopefully my feelings are wrong and this time they will give Beth and Dave some answers if not their daughter back.. Have a good day and hopefully Joran and the others are having a rotten day..

td

The insanity won't stop until the Arubans arrest the perps, try them, convict them, and imprison them. Until then Aruba will be marked as an unsafe, corrupt toilet of an island to stay away from and van der Sloots will be looked upon as a couple of worthless predators who got away with a crime against an innocent American girl.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Posted by Glenda at Ru:

You mean the fisherman who didn't report a crab trap stolen although that is the premise for the Million Dollar Search for Natalee. Did I read here that the owner of the boat was quoted saying her remains would still be intact because the water is sooo cold. What is the definition of Cold? Because this water is like a warm bathtub.

Question for Glenda:  When was the last time you dove to 1000 feet? 

I remember reading about the F-16 flyovers back in 2005.

Did they make any recordings of the waters around Aruba?

Anyone look there?

Who decided where the F-16's searched?  Who had their hands in that cookie jar?

If a crab trap were missing, if there was suggestion she was left at the beach, why didn't the F-16 do a detail fly over of the waters surrounding Aruba?

Or, maybe they did?

[Dayhiker]

Posted by Glenda at Ru:

You mean the fisherman who didn't report a crab trap stolen although that is the premise for the Million Dollar Search for Natalee. Did I read here that the owner of the boat was quoted saying her remains would still be intact because the water is sooo cold. What is the definition of Cold? Because this water is like a warm bathtub.

Question for Glenda:  When was the last time you dove to 1000 feet? 

No brainer alert. Anyone who criticizes this search obviously doesn't want Natalee found. Must be friends with the van der Sloots, that is the only reason I can think of any person would make such remarks. Even the Arubans who are sick of the case would rather she be found to get the whole debacle over with.

[klaasend]

[Shell]

When will the insanity stop?? I have lost a lot of faith in whats good and whats bad.. The sad things is that I never knew there were so many twisted individuals in the world but seeing the same dirt bags cheering for these killers just is too much to watch or hear on tv.. I come here just to see if by chance that someone has a conscience on that island but so far not a one.. I have a hard time putting too much faith in finding Natalee in the ocean but I do hope I'm wrong.. I just feel that everyone on that island is playing a cruel game and I have a hard time watching or hearing these idiots on tv.. This is the most simple case in the world and this would of been closed the first 24 hours if they wanted it solved.. Well hopefully my feelings are wrong and this time they will give Beth and Dave some answers if not their daughter back.. Have a good day and hopefully Joran and the others are having a rotten day..

td

The insanity won't stop until the Arubans arrest the perps, try them, convict them, and imprison them. Until then Aruba will be marked as an unsafe, corrupt toilet of an island to stay away from and van der Sloots will be looked upon as a couple of worthless predators who got away with a crime against an innocent American girl.

Well said

[Dayhiker]

While I am awaiting Ann's response to the temperature of the Caribbean at that level, I found this.

Ocean temperature also varies with depth. In general, the temperature falls as the depth increases. The warm surface waters extend to depths of about 500 feet (150 metres) in the tropics, and about 1,000 feet (300 metres) in the subtropics. Below the surface waters, the temperature drops rapidly, forming a layer called the thermocline. The thermocline varies in thickness, from about 1,000 feet (300 metres) to 3,000 feet (910 metres). Below the thermocline, the water cools more slowly. Close to the deep-sea floor, the temperature of the ocean ranges between 34 and 39 °F (1 and 4 °C) (Eliav, Weiss.)

In 40 degree water a person will be lucky to live one hour before they die of hypothermia. In 32 degree water under 15 minutes. Even in 60 degree water temp you will die in 6 hours.

BTW, refrigerators are usually set at 40 degress or below to sufficiently slow bacterial growth. Salt in the water also acts as a preservative.

[Tylergal]

Has anyone seen or heard from Rob lately?  I have not seen him on here and I am worried about him.  Rob, if you are around, let us hear from you. 

[klaasend]

Has anyone seen or heard from Rob lately?  I have not seen him on here and I am worried about him.  Rob, if you are around, let us hear from you. 

He's updated his blog today so I'm guessing he's ok.

[Tylergal]

While I am awaiting Ann's response to the temperature of the Caribbean at that level, I found this.

Ocean temperature also varies with depth. In general, the temperature falls as the depth increases. The warm surface waters extend to depths of about 500 feet (150 metres) in the tropics, and about 1,000 feet (300 metres) in the subtropics. Below the surface waters, the temperature drops rapidly, forming a layer called the thermocline. The thermocline varies in thickness, from about 1,000 feet (300 metres) to 3,000 feet (910 metres). Below the thermocline, the water cools more slowly. Close to the deep-sea floor, the temperature of the ocean ranges between 34 and 39 °F (1 and 4 °C) (Eliav, Weiss.)

In 40 degree water a person will be lucky to live one hour before they die of hypothermia. In 32 degree water under 15 minutes. Even in 60 degree water temp you will die in 6 hours.

BTW, refrigerators are usually set at 40 degress or below to sufficiently slow bacterial growth. Salt in the water also acts as a preservative.

Well, yes, I sort of knew that about refrigeration and salt, but was wondering what the temperatures were in the Caribbean as opposed to the Atlantic, Pacific, etc.

[Tylergal]

Has anyone seen or heard from Rob lately?  I have not seen him on here and I am worried about him.  Rob, if you are around, let us hear from you. 

He's updated his blog today so I'm guessing he's ok.

Thanks, Klaas.  I sort of miss his mixing it up and his theories, etc.  It lends itself to an interesting debate, with which I do not always agree, but enjoy nonetheless, the brain exercises.

[Tylergal]

Suffice it to say, I also enjoy seeing the programs of open-heart surgery and the off-pump bypasses, the inducement of hypothermia, cold-blood cardioplegia, stop the beating heart, etc.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Why would AHATA risk enormous amounts of money on the Kalpoe Brothers? Are they paying for Joe Tacopina's huge Attorney costs also?

Why would AHTA risk enormous amounts of money on the Kalpoe Brothers?  That is a very good question.

Here are a few thoughts that come to mind (JMHO) ~

• They misunderstand how the American justice system works.  Sometimes, 'no body' may not be an insurance policy to insure that there is 'no case'
• The term 'there is no evidence' is highly subjective
• What is the difference between "beyond a reasonable doubt" and "a preponderance of the evidence"?
• Is winning any lawsuit against Dr. Phil or Natalee's family likely to bring tourists to the island?
• How will the average Aruba profit from these lawsuits?
  
• From any boycott?
• How with the wealth of Avarice be distributed among the little people?
  
  • Perhaps it will 'trickle down' from those above?
  • Do any of these lawsuits make life better for the sons and daughters of Aruban's?
    
  • Put food on the Aruban table, or shoes on the feet of Aruban children?
  • Raise taxes to pay for them?
  
  

  preponderance of the evidence
  n. the greater weight of the evidence required in a civil (non-criminal) lawsuit for the trier of fact (jury or judge without a jury) to decide in favor of one side or the other. This preponderance is based on the more convincing evidence and its probable truth or accuracy, and not on the amount of evidence. Thus, one clearly knowledgeable witness may provide a preponderance of evidence over a dozen witnesses with hazy testimony, or a signed agreement with definite terms may outweigh opinions or speculation about what the parties intended. Preponderance of the evidence is required in a civil case and is contrasted with "beyond a reasonable doubt," which is the more severe test of evidence required to convict in a criminal trial. No matter what the definition stated in various legal opinions, the meaning is somewhat subjective.

  http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=1586
  

  evidence
  n. every type of proof legally presented at trial (allowed by the judge) which is intended to convince the judge and/or jury of alleged facts material to the case. It can include oral testimony of witnesses, including experts on technical matters, documents, public records, objects, photographs and depositions (testimony under oath taken before trial). It also includes so-called "circumstantial evidence" which is intended to create belief by showing surrounding circumstances which logically lead to a conclusion of fact. Comments and arguments by the attorneys, statements by the judge and answers to questions which the judge has ruled objectionable are not evidence. ...Evidence must survive objections of opposing attorneys that it is irrelevant, immaterial or violates rules against "hearsay" (statements by a party not in court), and/or other technicalities.

  http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=671&bold=
  

  circumstantial evidence
  n. evidence in a trial which is not directly from an eyewitness or participant and requires some reasoning to prove a fact. There is a public perception that such evidence is weak ("all they have is circumstantial evidence"), but the probable conclusion from the circumstances may be so strong that there can be little doubt as to a vital fact ("beyond a reasonable doubt" in a criminal case, and "a preponderance of the evidence" in a civil case). Particularly in criminal cases, "eyewitness" ("I saw Frankie shoot Johnny") type evidence is often lacking and may be unreliable, so circumstantial evidence becomes essential. Prior threats to the victim, fingerprints found at the scene of the crime, ownership of the murder weapon, and the accused being seen in the neighborhood, certainly point to the suspect as being the killer, but each bit of evidence is circumstantial.

  http://dictionary.law.com/definition2.asp?selected=191&bold=
  

  res ipsa loquitur
  (rayz ip-sah loh-quit-her) n. Latin for "the thing speaks for itself," a doctrine of law that one is presumed to be negligent if he/she/it had exclusive control of whatever caused the injury even though there is no specific evidence of an act of negligence, and without negligence the accident would not have happened...

  http://dictionary.law.com/default2.asp?typed=res+ipsa+l&type=3
  
  (I don't think this stuff was ever talked about on Matlock    )
  
  
  
  
  

[Dana]

Posted by Glenda at Ru:

You mean the fisherman who didn't report a crab trap stolen although that is the premise for the Million Dollar Search for Natalee. Did I read here that the owner of the boat was quoted saying her remains would still be intact because the water is sooo cold. What is the definition of Cold? Because this water is like a warm bathtub.

Question for Glenda:  When was the last time you dove to 1000 feet? 

Just to let everyone know I will be on the Crime And Punishment Radio show accross Canada tonight at 9:30pm et approx discussing the Holloway case.
For those of you not in Canada you can pick up the net feed of the show at http://www.cjob.com/ or leave comments at www.mikeoncrime.com
I believe there is a toll fee number you can call in during the show.
Now a favor can someone email me a timeline of events, it doenst have to be pages, i just want to make sure my dates are accurate.

Im not sure how long I will be on but I will try and cover as much as I can.

Dana

[Lala'sMom]

Well, now that we have that cleared up...back to my original question.

Why were these 2 particular security guards arrested as suspects in the first place?  I do not recall them being singled out by name by any of the 3 perps?  What prompted KJ to g o in like cowboys and take them from their homes?  What?  Why?

[Spock]

I would like to see that typed copy of the press release on the Judges decision to release Kalpoes again. Can someone put it ip? Thank You.

Still cant find it, it was a photo of the press release with the Judges ruling...

Thanks Klaasend. This is my read on the ruling:

1. The new evidence places at least one of the Kalpoes back on the beach after the 3 am text messages

2. This information was obtained by bugging of the Kalpoe home and it is what I heard Tacopina blurt out on Fox.

3. The new evidence contains an admission by Joran that the girl was dead to an infiltrator.

4. The police now believe the body was taken to sea Monday evening and the cell phone called can be traced equally well to an offshore location as to the casino area the boys say they were at.

In addition to this new evidence, I believe both Guido and Steve were with the kalpoes and natalee that night.

[klaasend]

Posted by Glenda at Ru:

You mean the fisherman who didn't report a crab trap stolen although that is the premise for the Million Dollar Search for Natalee. Did I read here that the owner of the boat was quoted saying her remains would still be intact because the water is sooo cold. What is the definition of Cold? Because this water is like a warm bathtub.

Question for Glenda:  When was the last time you dove to 1000 feet? 

Just to let everyone know I will be on the Crime And Punishment Radio show accross Canada tonight at 9:30pm et approx discussing the Holloway case.
For those of you not in Canada you can pick up the net feed of the show at http://www.cjob.com/ or leave comments at www.mikeoncrime.com
I believe there is a toll fee number you can call in during the show.
Now a favor can someone email me a timeline of events, it doenst have to be pages, i just want to make sure my dates are accurate.

Im not sure how long I will be on but I will try and cover as much as I can.

Dana

Thanks Dana - I'll be sure to tune in!

[klaasend]

Spock - I read it the same way, thanks.

[Blue Moon]

Blue Moon
I am going to ask you a question now... Why did they arrest those particular 2 security guards?  Of all the people they had to choose from, there were more than just these two that worked as security  in that location...why were these two guys chosen?  Anyone have any idea? 

I believe the 2 security guards were arrested and put in there to help the police to monitor what J2K were blabbing in jail.  JMO but I do believe they could not take a chance of having those boys talking to anyone so they placed the guards (probably paid off to do this) in cells next to them to account for anything they might say.

Here is my answer to your question posted earlier.

[crazybabyborg]

OK,  someone refresh my memory, please? Monday evening was what day in relation to the night she went missing?

Were Beth and Jug on the island Monday evening?

[wreck]

OK,  someone refresh my memory, please? Monday evening was what day in relation to the night she went missing?

Were Beth and Jug on the island Monday evening?

Beth and Jug got to aruba Monday night about 10pm.