Natalee Case Discussion #699 12/1 - 12/3/2007

[Dihannah1]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

[AZLady]

I watched an hour-long program on XTC a few nights ago on Discovery, the LC or History Channel, cannot remember which, but I believe at the point Natalee was taken with them in the car, she had already been drugged, and perhaps was drugged a few hours before.  I think she may have been the target of drugs by the bartender, perhaps a call was made to the bartender to make her drink special. 

XTC lasts for about 6 hours.  The drugged person sees all around them as being loving and congenial and nothing is wrong with anyone and that everyone has all good intentions and was described as a 6-hour orgasm.  It makes a person dance for hours, they just want to keep dancing.  (What did we learn from statements?)  Natalee had dance all night.  She had even asked Joran to dance with her.  She had danced while several of her MB girlfriends were dancing.  So, if she was drugged from the get-go by the bartender, who obviously Joran knew well (where did he go when he left the HI?  Did he make a swing by C&C and show the bartender a picture of Natalee from a cell phone that either he or Paulus was using in the casino?) had already "fixed" Natalee's drink and had her "prepped" for Joran when he arrived.  (Mary was not a virgin when she went through the maze = she was drugged long before she got in the car). 

When a person is coming down from the drug, they can act very bizarre, they get very depressed, cry and often scream (She was acting bizarre).

Hi Tyler.  I have to respectfully disagree.  Ecstasy, or MDMA, does not going to fit the description of the activities of that night.  First off, Natalee didn't arrive at C & C's until rather late, probably 10 PM or after.  This would only give her a maximum of 3 hours to dance.  We saw her in the casino, seated at the BJ table up until 9:30 or so.  For someone who loved to dance, as Natalee did, three hours of dancing would be fun, not an ecstasy-induced marathon. 

Joran bought her a shot of 151 rum right at closing time.  I have no doubt this was poured from the special bottle kept behind the bar for ladies.  For $20 or $25 a shot, the lady gets a GHB-laced shot.  Because the drink is intended to be taken in one shot, without time to taste it before pouring it down the throat, this is the ideal way to administer a date-rape drug.  Do you remember Joran saying Natalee told him she would take it in two drinks, not one?  She didn't like to take shots--too strong and nasty for a non-drinker--and I think she just managed about half of it.  The drug takes effect in 20-30 minutes, thus the need to give it just before closing so the rapist can get his target into his car soon after the administration of the drug and before the target passes out and becomes incoherent.  Remember, Natalee's friend said she wasn't talking much and her eyes looked heavy as she was leaving.  She was already becoming disoriented.  These are not symptoms of ecstacy, or MDMA, but of a stronger drug like GHB.

I believe Natalee took enough of the drug in her half shot that she was incapacitated but not enough to keep her unconscious.  She woke and fought with Joran and her other attackers, leading to her death by violence.

[AZLady]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

Probably Tacky Joe's promise to give to Greta the 15 pages the prosecutor gave the defense attorneys.  Anyone want to make a bet that he doesn't really have it and won't come through?

[NYC_lover]

I have to go for dinner. Dinner-menu says Spaghetti.   

[BUCKSHOT]

any kalpoe sightings today?
wonder what the two brothers are up to today?

wlso, what has paulus been up to lately? do you think he has been in contact with kalpoe lawyers ? ask the kalpoes to come over for another poolside meeting?

would love to have someone keeping a good eye on them.

[San]

I watched an hour-long program on XTC a few nights ago on Discovery, the LC or History Channel, cannot remember which, but I believe at the point Natalee was taken with them in the car, she had already been drugged, and perhaps was drugged a few hours before.  I think she may have been the target of drugs by the bartender, perhaps a call was made to the bartender to make her drink special. 

XTC lasts for about 6 hours.  The drugged person sees all around them as being loving and congenial and nothing is wrong with anyone and that everyone has all good intentions and was described as a 6-hour orgasm.  It makes a person dance for hours, they just want to keep dancing.  (What did we learn from statements?)  Natalee had dance all night.  She had even asked Joran to dance with her.  She had danced while several of her MB girlfriends were dancing.  So, if she was drugged from the get-go by the bartender, who obviously Joran knew well (where did he go when he left the HI?  Did he make a swing by C&C and show the bartender a picture of Natalee from a cell phone that either he or Paulus was using in the casino?) had already "fixed" Natalee's drink and had her "prepped" for Joran when he arrived.  (Mary was not a virgin when she went through the maze = she was drugged long before she got in the car). 

When a person is coming down from the drug, they can act very bizarre, they get very depressed, cry and often scream (She was acting bizarre).

It was said that Guido left his job early that night.  Was he there at CnC's to point out who Natalee was to the bartender.

[Tylergal]

I personally have no experience with XTC or MBMA, but these were intelligent, supposedly well-informed people from NIH, DEA and Congress who were discussing it and discussing its ban in the USA, (1984) brought about by then-Senator Lloyd Benson of Texas, which meant that it could not be used even for research because of its dangers, although some pharmaceutical companies and doctors wanted to make it legal for research, as it had been used in depressed and mentally ill people in double-blind studies in California and had shown definite positive effects on personality disorders. 

So let's assume for the sake of assumption, that she got the drug at about 10 p.m. (in a drink), she had danced since she got there.  Was the drug wearing off and they bought her another drink because Joran saw that she was too "sensical" at this point, so he gave her another.  Is that too much for her heart given her small size and she is already dehydrated from dancing, drinking, being outside for a good part of the day?  I am not arguing the point of whether or not she was drugged, but how much and how often, basing this on what the experts say, if she had the drug around 9:30 or 10 p.m., it would be wearing off by about 2-2:30 a.m. but if she was redosed around midnight, then the drug might either have caused her demise or kept on going until around 5 a.m., more or less.

[San]

Good Morning NYC_lover Thank you for reposting the info on Dop Kruimel the other day. I am sorry I misunderstood when you said that she looks like KJ!!!!

Tyler I can see what you're saying and it could be possible, but have always felt that Freddy and not just his camera were involved here. Maybe I am making this more complicated than it actually was, but I'm stuck on Freddy.

"Freddy knows the truth..."  Kalpoe seems to believe if Freddy talks, this will exonerate him and his brother.  So what does Freddy know?  Joran raped Natalee, perhaps so did Guido who she fought off but Freddy was the cameraman.  Does this also make Freddy culpable as K2 or did Freddy claim less guilt since he was only the cameraman.  How do we know that Freddy has not used all this already to get us to the point we are now.  I believe that Freddy has talked his way into a position of "crown witness" or the prosecutor is keeping him as the surprise at the end when needed, perhaps even a film.

I still believe that K2 was involved, but peripherally.

The Bifrons (Babylonians) who helped .... enter GVC.

I believe GVC is a nut job and he absolutely helped.  This loser cannot hold down a job and it was said people can't stand working with him.  Just by his photos alone you can tell he is a jackass.

[JusticeforNatalee]

I doubt that Beth was "interrogated." Who used that word, Julia?

I bet that there was a discussion and that all parties at the meeting with Mos asked questions, and he asked questions back.

"Interrogated" sounds like an exaggeration or spin to me.

[MumInOhio]

Tyler...What do you think Steve Croes involvement is then? I have been leaning towards him as one of the bifrons, of late. Partly because of the Solognier vehicle search, but I haven't been able to find anything that states definately that Rufo/Raphael Solognier are the same person. TIA

[San]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

Either Beth, Dave or JQK agreed to be on her show or Joe Tacopina is willing who show her the papers he has.

[Tylergal]

Morning, Monkeys.  I've been reading the comments.  I keep remembering the incident at the Internet Cafe where Beth confronted Deepak.  She asked Deepak if he helped Natalee that night.  He hung his head and didn't look at her. 

Now, Beth knows much, much more of what happened that night.  When she confronted Deepak, it sounded to me like Beth knew Deepak was there when Natalee was assaulted, and she was asking him if he helped her.

From: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/08/09/earlyshow/main766023.shtml

Twitty described her close-up with Deepak to CBS News:

"There were customers on the computer and he was seated behind the cash register, and I guess he thought he was going to have a normal day at work.

"I wanted to ask him, Joran had admitted sexual assaults that he had committed against Natalee, and I wanted to ask Deepak: Did he participate, or did he try to help her?

"He couldn't answer me. He could only look down at the ground."

Beth goes on to say:
"I expected him, if he had no involvement, if he was not a participant in the sexual acts committed against my daughter, that yes, he could have come forward and said, 'No,' and looked me in the eye. He couldn't do that.

Think this through very well.  Tucking his head may mean, "No, I was not there to help her when Joran did that but I was a jackass who hid her body."

[Tylergal]

Tyler...What do you think Steve Croes involvement is then? I have been leaning towards him as one of the bifrons, of late. Partly because of the Solognier vehicle search, but I haven't been able to find anything that states definately that Rufo/Raphael Solognier are the same person. TIA

Steve was involved .  Either Steve called GVC because he needed his services or GVC called Steve because they needed someone familiar with navigating a boat.

[Port Valerie]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

She's been pushing for the "new evidence" because she feels qualified as a lawyer to evaluate it. This will be blather from Joe Taco.

[BUCKSHOT]

I doubt that Beth was "interrogated." Who used that word, Julia?

I bet that there was a discussion and that all parties at the meeting with Mos asked questions, and he asked questions back.

"Interrogated" sounds like an exaggeration or spin to me.

i think "interrogated" is definitely a spin. discussion is probably a more truthful description.

flying to aruba just for a six hour meeting, though. couldn't they have discussed things through a conference call? what was the need for the face-to-face meeting, i wonder??

[Tylergal]

I rarely if ever read at Refugees because most of that is just banality, but something I read that did stick out with me that I read there was Glenda describing how horrible it would be for J2K to touch a dead body and trying to impress upon others how it would be, a dead body.  She was telegraphing subconsciously but was not aware of her own statements, how she felt about what they had done but she refused to admit the truth, only allowing her subconscious to do it for her.

[Tylergal]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

She's been pushing for the "new evidence" because she feels qualified as a lawyer to evaluate it. This will be blather from Joe Taco.

Not worth the power it takes for my flat screen to watch.  Greta is a poseur, if not a downright-opportunist apologist for Tacopino.

[Port Valerie]

On Greta's Blog, part of her show tonight...

tonight we will get the latest in the Natalee Holloway story…there is disappointing news out of Aruba but nonetheless I want the inside story of what happened and I assume you do, too…and yes, we will have the inside story assuming all the promises made to us over the weekend are kept…

hmmmm, wonder what this is?

Probably Tacky Joe's promise to give to Greta the 15 pages the prosecutor gave the defense attorneys.  Anyone want to make a bet that he doesn't really have it and won't come through?

OR ... Joe T will give Greta the text of his appeal to get Joran out early which he said he would offer up today.

Greta says "assuming that promises are kept." That indicates that her "inside story" involves something that is going to happen today. (Otherwise, the "promises" could have been kept earlier -- that is, information could have been passed to Greta already, over the weekend.)

If Joe T gives Greta the text of some of his blather, it is meaningless. Who cares? Who listens?

[Lala'sMom]

Yoo Hoo!!  Simian.  Yes, you!   How could the Kalpoes be innocent if they didn't know what happened after they left?  HUH? That's what you said...the Hindus were told around the pool...how can they be charged with abuse of a corpse?  You said they weren't there...are you wrong?

 Come on, I know you want to explain.  You  can use the FP of SM...you've done it before....are you chicken now?  It's almost over...do you want these guys to get away with this?  Are you really for law and justice as you claim? 

[BUCKSHOT]

Aruba: Prime Minister Oduber to refuse Emergency Colonoscopy
AP Breaking:

Oranjstaad: The Prime Minister of Aruba, Nelson Oduber was rushed to the hospital last week in what doctors are calling a major trauma to Mr. Oduber's head.

Mr. Oduber has been noticeably silent lately, which some considered odd since Aruba is once again in the worldwide spotlight.

While doctors will not say exactly how the accident happened, it appears the Prime Minister's tongue has been severed. Police are investigating how this could have happened since Mr. Oduber was alone when he tried to call for help.

"At this point, we can find no traces of the severed tongue." When questioned about where it might be so doctors can attempt a re-attachment, the Prime Minister's spokesman, American Lawyer Joe Tacopina told authorities to stick it you know where."

On that advice, a specialist from Holland was brought in and recommended an immediate colonoscopy. Dr. Mos was quoted as saying "with the help of Tim Miller from TES, I believe we will have the equipment necessary to find the tongue."

"If it's in there, I can assure you, we will find it" said Tim Miller, founder of Texas Equusearch.

"They have nothing and will find nothing"said Joe Tacopina, who has done more talking on behalf of Aruba than the Prime Minister lately.

When asked by a reporter why the Prime Minister needs a spokesperson he responded,"mphmmnfphuyosh."