Natalee Case Discussion #699 12/1 - 12/3/2007

[Silverfox]

Let's see...

Two arrests... then a third... Two releases... but the third stays in jail

The Papa arrested before... then released ... then sues for compensation...

In a judicial review of the compensation suit some "new" evidence was presented and Papa was denied compensation because apparently the bench felt the state was justified in feeling and arresting him because the evidence points to a fact that he was involved in Nat's disappearance.

I have a feeling that this thing is going to get interesting.  My gut tells me they got Joran, and perhaps Papa too (albeit a more minor charge which would explain perhaps why he is not arrested now...yet)...

I also think the K2 will be rearrested and charged before the month is out... but really, don't you wonder if perhaps a "dutch deal" has been cut?  Maybe this is all window dressing and they agreed to testify against J and P and others and so they get out in the manner they did? 

And remember... there is still another drama being played in the background... one that I feel might have a legal nexus to this one... the separate "corruption" investigation.  Somehow I wonder if the two cases have a lot of common thread between them and that justice, and we all hope justice prevails, will be served in a much clearer light once Dutch authorities conclude the corruption investigation and begin making arrests.  I assume that such arrests will be "earth shaking" and potentially will bring a major part of the Aruban government down.

JMO.

[Observer]

the separate "corruption" investigation

I have never seen anywhere that they are actively Investigating the Corruption/Cover up in Natalee's case. Where do you see this? The Dutch have had this case for 16 months now and I have seen no clues they are gonna do anything about it. We know the Arubans certainly have no intentions of exposing anyone involved in the cover up.

[JA]

As sick as it is, Deepak and Satish could have been along for the night to be voyuers (sp?).  They don't get the girls like Joran did and watching was better than not getting anything.  Maybe they stopped there, maybe they helped Joran with a difficult or stuggling Natalee when things turned sour, or maybe one or both took advantage of am unconscious or semi-conscious Natalee at Joran's prodding.

I think they knew ahead of time that Joran was going to drug a girl, and didn't think it was a big deal because they had done it before without any consequences.  They had had practice doing this and knew what situation was to their advantage.  Maybe before they found out what hotel the victim was staying at before, sexually assaulted them and then dropped them off in front of the hotel.  the victim either made it up to their room, or hotel staff found out where they belonged and got them there.  They are used to dealing with intoxicated tourists all the time.  That is one reason why they gave the hotel story.  It was what they usually did.  I think Natalee was convenient.  She was attractive and already intoxicated, making her the perfect victim.  She was with a large group, so she could easily taken away from the group.  Everyone would think she was with someone else.  They were probably all intoxicated at different levels, and safety on their last night probably was not a priority.  The vacation had gone well so far, why worry?

The boys know what happened to a certain level because Paulus had to get down what they were going to say to cover Joran.  By telling them that if they stick to this story no one will serve anytime is what 2K wanted to hear and beleive.  After all they probably thought, Paulus is an attorney and knows of these things.

Hopefully, they told what happened, and have accepted that they might have to serve a short sentence ( at least according to our standards!).  I hope someone got it through their skulls that Joran is only looking out for Joran.

[Spock]

the separate "corruption" investigation

I have never seen anywhere that they are actively Investigating the Corruption/Cover up in Natalee's case. Where do you see this? The Dutch have had this case for 16 months now and I have seen no clues they are gonna do anything about it. We know the Arubans certainly have no intentions of exposing anyone involved in the cover up.

Agreed, they will never expose the corruption. Mos' job is to prosecute the killing without exposing the coverup.

[SunnyinTX]

Let's see...

Two arrests... then a third... Two releases... but the third stays in jail

The Papa arrested before... then released ... then sues for compensation...

In a judicial review of the compensation suit some "new" evidence was presented and Papa was denied compensation because apparently the bench felt the state was justified in feeling and arresting him because the evidence points to a fact that he was involved in Nat's disappearance.

I have a feeling that this thing is going to get interesting.  My gut tells me they got Joran, and perhaps Papa too (albeit a more minor charge which would explain perhaps why he is not arrested now...yet)...

I also think the K2 will be rearrested and charged before the month is out... but really, don't you wonder if perhaps a "dutch deal" has been cut?  Maybe this is all window dressing and they agreed to testify against J and P and others and so they get out in the manner they did? 

And remember... there is still another drama being played in the background... one that I feel might have a legal nexus to this one... the separate "corruption" investigation.  Somehow I wonder if the two cases have a lot of common thread between them and that justice, and we all hope justice prevails, will be served in a much clearer light once Dutch authorities conclude the corruption investigation and begin making arrests.  I assume that such arrests will be "earth shaking" and potentially will bring a major part of the Aruban government down.

JMO.

Thank you Silverfox... was it ever revealed what this 'new' evidences was?

"in a judicial review of the compensation suit some "new" evidence was presented and Papa was denied compensation because apparently the bench felt the state was justified in feeling and arresting him because the evidence points to a fact that he was involved in Nat's disappearance."  this is really confusing...

[Spock]

Here is an interesting point:

Mos does not need a Judges approval to charge the suspects with crimes. As I understand it, he charges them, and a trial panel of Judges will try them. The only thing the pretrial Judge can do is decide if the charges merit a pretrial detention. The pretrial Judge can not dismiss the charges.

The only thing stopping Mos from trying the case is Mos himself. I think the corruption is deep enough that he will not bring charges because he likes having a job.

[Tamikosmom]

News in McCann case:
New witness again Robert Murat in the McCann case.

The new witness is the 20-years-old Charlotte Pennington.

Charlotte has told Newspaper the Sun, she has see Robert Murat, the night of disappear of Madeleine McCann at the apartment. Where Madeleine and her little twin brother and sister were sleeping that night.

NYC_lover ... I am confused.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++


Kate McCann DID scream 'They've taken her' claims new nanny witness
By DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 16:41pm on 25th September 2007

The first eyewitness account of the frantic moments after Madeleine McCann disappeared can be revealed today.

Nanny Charlotte Pennington confirms that Kate McCann did scream: "They've taken her, they've taken her!"

<snipped>

Speaking publicly for the first time yesterday, she described Mrs McCann in the aftermath as "a broken woman" who was shuddering and unable to move.

"We are trained to comfort people in this type of situation but she was just inconsolable," she said.

Miss Pennington is considered a vital witness by Portuguese detectives with whom she spent more than four-and-a-half hours giving a statement.

She also claims British expat Robert Murat, the first suspect in the case, was in the area of the Ocean Club complex that night. He has repeatedly denied that he was there.

Talking from her mother's home in Leatherhead, Surrey, yesterday she told the Daily Mail: "I was in the apartment less than five minutes after they found that Madeleine had gone.

"When we were coming out we saw Kate and she was screaming: 'They've taken her, they've taken her!'

"I was standing right in front of her outside the apartment's back door, in the alleyway. I was very close to her. It might not have been the first thing she said. But she definitely said it.

"I was one of three Mark Warner staff who saw her shouting it. They have all given statements to the Portuguese police saying that."

The "they've taken her" version of events was first given in the Portuguese press two days after Madeleine disappeared on May 3.

http://cuttingthroughtherubbish.blogspot.com/2007/09/mccanns-new-witness-charlotte.html

[Nut44x4]

the separate "corruption" investigation

I have never seen anywhere that they are actively Investigating the Corruption/Cover up in Natalee's case. Where do you see this? The Dutch have had this case for 16 months now and I have seen no clues they are gonna do anything about it. We know the Arubans certainly have no intentions of exposing anyone involved in the cover up.

I think this is as close as they ever came to it and we never heard results, if I am not mistaken.

People who talk a lot, have to stop talking and let the appropriate people talk
This according to the Minister of Justice after a question about Dompig’s declarations on Vanity Fair

DIARIO Aruba
12/07/2005

ORANJESTAD(AAN): During an interview with the Minister of Justice, the press asked the mandatory about the fact that an interview with Commissioner Dompig appeared in Vanity Fair, where he said that in the case of Natalee Holloway he arrested people to please the family.

Minister Croes said that there now is a tremendous Aruban prosecutor, who works in Curacao, who has just been asked to come to Aruba to give a hand, to do an independent investigation of the investigation which took place, where she will find all the documents.

According to Minister Croes, the Public Ministry [in Aruba] asked to work with them, however the Minister wants for her to do a completely, totally independent job, to help resolve the case and to detect where things went badly, for us to avoid them in the future.

The Minister said that he asks for people who talk too much, to stop talking a little, in order to let the appropriate people speak.


// posted by Getagrip @ 12/07/2005 11:46:00 PM
http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005_12_04_archive.html

~~~~~~~~~
It seems I remember a discussion on this at AL.com forums. Perhaps dennisintn remembers...?

[Tamikosmom]

OOPS!  Wrong link.


Kate McCann DID scream 'They've taken her' claims new nanny witness
By DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 16:41pm on 25th September 2007

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=483715&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

[Nut44x4]

http://justrepublic.wordpress.com/2006/07/
Aruba vs. Natalee et al.: Treating the Disease
To All Those Concerned:

When I look at the Natalee Holloway case I have more questions than answers. There are three things that standout more than anything though: (1) how could any human being hurt such a precious young woman, (2) why does the Aruban government insist on committing suicide and (3) where is Natalee? The first question I need go no further, because it happens all the time in acts carried out be depraved “human beings.” As for the second question it is either corruption or horrible public relations advice, finally that must be answered by both investigating the crime and the investigation.

The bad blood between Natalee’s family and the Aruban people is evident, and it is an ailment to all parties? These ailments as any that inflict human beings must be treated. What are the ailments and what is the appropriate treatment? I have selected six ailments in the case and am offering the appropriate treatment for each ailment. Remember the world we live in for better or worse is one where perception is truth. The best way to expose faulty perceptions is to bring it all into the light of day, and allow neutral parties to investigate all. This will require both the Aruban government and Natalee’s family to swallow their pride.

Ailment: Is Aruba’s government corrupt?
Millions of American’s perceive this to be true.
Treatment: A full investigation of the investigation by authorities from Holland and the US.

Ailment: Did Natalee’s family hinder the investigation?
Many Arubans’ perceive this to be true.
Treatment: A full investigation of the investigation by authorities from Holland and the US.

Ailement: What happened to Natalee?
Millions of Americans know that the Van der Sloots know and perceive that government officials of Aruba know.
Treatment: A new investigation by officials from Holland and US authorities, with no Aruban involvement.

Ailment: The boycott of Aruba.
Millions of Americans perceive this boycott as just and Arubans perceive it as unjust.
Treatment: In exchange for the above concessions, the boycott of Aruba should be called off.

Ailment: Crimes not prosecuted.
Millions of Americans perceive that many crimes related to the abduction and investigation in this case have not been prosecuted.
Treatment: Any crime including, but not limited to lying, as a witness should be prosecuted immediately.

Ailment: Did Natalee’s family misappropriate funds?
Many Arubans perceive this to be true.
Treatment: They should provide an open accounting of any accounts created on behalf of Natalee’s case, and the appropriations of said funds.

The aforementioned steps may to some degree reduce the tension between the parties. It requires both parties to act in an open manner, and perhaps see the true light. I am one who believes that if there is nothing to hide, then bring it into the light and you will be vindicated. However, at times a struggle can escalate as it has here where people will do anything just to spite the other side. Natalee’s family having nothing to hide should have no problem with opening the books, and the Aruban government with nothing to hide should not have a problem being investigated. A joint investigation by Holland and the US of the investigation that concludes it was conducted in a professional and just manner will go along way to restoring Aruba’s reputation. More than any amount of money spent on advertising will ever do.

These measures of compromise would restore faith to the truth and justice seeking party, and bring a murky problem into a clearer light. It is my belief that whoever declines such a compromise could only be guilty of wrongdoing. Any endeavor undertaken by human beings is not perfect; as such, mistakes are acceptable to a degree. A transparent process brings those mistakes into light and insures that all have acted, according to appropriate procedures.

This proposal of reconciliation should be accepted in the name of the truth and justice. It will help Natalee’s family find the truth and clear the perceived corruption of the Aruban government.

Sincerely,

“Mr. Justice”

July 25, 2006 Posted by Mr. Justice

[NYC_lover]

News in McCann case:
New witness again Robert Murat in the McCann case.

The new witness is the 20-years-old Charlotte Pennington.

Charlotte has told Newspaper the Sun, she has see Robert Murat, the night of disappear of Madeleine McCann at the apartment. Where Madeleine and her little twin brother and sister were sleeping that night.

NYC_lover ... I am confused.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++++


Kate McCann DID scream 'They've taken her' claims new nanny witness
By DAN NEWLING
Last updated at 16:41pm on 25th September 2007

The first eyewitness account of the frantic moments after Madeleine McCann disappeared can be revealed today.

Nanny Charlotte Pennington confirms that Kate McCann did scream: "They've taken her, they've taken her!"

http://cuttingthroughtherubbish.blogspot.com/2007/09/mccanns-new-witness-charlotte.html

Tamikosmom - this case is a really trouble case, police rapports with many suspects: Mommy, Daddy, Robert Murat, Robert Murat his girlfriend and more suspects.
I had read the article in De Telegraaf, there is stay there is a second towel found. The second towel is found in a barn. Probably is the first towel, where they also have spoken about, found by De Telegraaf news reports in the area, where the Dutch tip person was talking about. I have more write about this case in my blogspot.... see the link in my signature.

[SunnyinTX]

 Sorry if this has already been posted....if not hopefully someone can translate it

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1Beth Twitty a keda interoga pa mas di 4 ora diasabra mainta 
Monday, 03 December 2007 


Autoridad a sorprende nan despues di nan ‘combersacion cu Fiscal’


ORANJESTAD – Mama di Natalee Holloway, Beth Holloway a haye cu un sorpresa desagradabel den fin di siman ora cu e la haye ta wordo interoga pa recherche di Hulanda y Aruba diasabra mainta pa mas di 4 ora largo. Algo cu sigur Twitty no a spera cu e lo mester a pasa aden. Na final, un Beth Twitty hopi disgusta y visiblemente rabia, a nenga di duna comentario na Bon Dia Aruba ora cu el a bandona warda di polis, acompaña pa su Abogado mericano John Q. Kelly.
Manera cu Bon Dia Aruba a raporta caba, Beth Twitty y Dave Holloway a haci un peticion na Fiscal Hans Mos, pa reuni cu nan pa asina por tin un intercambio di informacion rond di e investigacion riba e desaparicio di su yiu muher Natalee. Algo cu Mos a bai di acuerdo cune. “Nos debe e famia un splicacion di kico nos ta haciendo. E ta un caso lamentabel y tristo y nan tin derecho riba informacion. Esei nos ta bai duna nan tambe. Informacion riba e caso” Mos a declara ainda na prensa diabierna atardi laat despues cu a bira conoci cu nan a perde nan caso contra rumannan Kalpoe cu diasabra a recobra nan libertad.

Loke cu Twitty no tabata sa ta cu autoridad local tabatin otro intencion acerca. Esta cu lo a interoga e mama y posiblemente e tata tambe, unabes cu nan caba cu nan session di ‘informacion’.

E intencion tabata cu lo a warda riba Twitty na edificio di Ministerio Publico pa 8’or y mei diasabra mainta. Esaki pues tabata e plan cu autoridad tabata kier pa tur hende tin. Pero en realidad e plan tabata otro. A dicidi cu ta cambia localidad y ta topa e mayornan di Natalee Holloway na warda di polis na Playa enves di Ministerio Publico.
Pues tabata ya den careda di 8’or y algo cu por a nota presencia caba di Fiscal Dop Kruimel cu a yega warda di polis prome y a drenta di e porta di dilanti. Despues a sigui yegada di Fiscal Mayor Hans Mos cu tambe a drenta warda di polis pero e la opta pa drenta for di patras, hincando su auto prome den e parkeerplaats paden y drenta di porta di banda.

Mester nota cu e unico medio local presente pa cubri esaki tabata Bon Dia Aruba cu a haci su investigacion necesario y a logra haya e informacion necesario. Aki a sigui e parti di wardamento riba e famia Twitty, pasobra a kere cu cos a cambia, ya cu ningun hende tabata aparece.

Diripiente mei ora mas laat cu programa, den careda di 9’or di mainta a aparece un grupito di 6 pa 7 persona cu a cruza caya banda di Cuba’s Cooking y drenta warda di polis for di porta principal, esta dilanti. Entre e grupo aki a nota presencia di Beth Twitty den jeans y camisa blauw, sigui pa su Abogado mericano John Q. Kelly cu tambe tabata bisti hopi casual y a drenta cu un cara serio den warda di polis. E momento ei ainda nan no tabata sa kico e plan tabata.

Despues di mas of menos un ora y algo, a nota salida di tanto fiscal Kruimel como Mos, mientras cu keto bai Twitty y delegacion tabata paden. A dura mas di 5 ora despues ora cu diripiente Twitty y delegacion a bandona warda di polis for di porta di dilanti, rabia y a nenga di duna declaracion na prensa. Despues a drenta nan auto y a bandona e sitio. Bon Dia Aruba tabatin conocemento di e plan aki delanta, pero no por a divulga nada pa no trece e plan di autoridad na peliger. Y por nota cu e plan lo a funciona, aunke no a logra haya comentario si di Twitty y tampoco Fiscal riba con nan parti a bai den e caso aki. Riba combinacion di potretnan por a haya un impresion di e momentonan di movesion dilanti di Warda di Polis di Playa.
 

[NYC_lover]

Sorry if this has already been posted....if not hopefully someone can translate it

http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1http://www.bondia.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=512&Itemid=1Beth Twitty a keda interoga pa mas di 4 ora diasabra mainta 
Monday, 03 December 2007 


Autoridad a sorprende nan despues di nan ‘combersacion cu Fiscal’


ORANJESTAD – Mama di Natalee Holloway, Beth Holloway a haye cu un sorpresa desagradabel den fin di siman ora cu e la haye ta wordo interoga pa recherche di Hulanda y Aruba diasabra mainta pa mas di 4 ora largo. Algo cu sigur Twitty no a spera cu e lo mester a pasa aden. Na final, un Beth Twitty hopi disgusta y visiblemente rabia, a nenga di duna comentario na Bon Dia Aruba ora cu el a bandona warda di polis, acompaña pa su Abogado mericano John Q. Kelly.
Manera cu Bon Dia Aruba a raporta caba, Beth Twitty y Dave Holloway a haci un peticion na Fiscal Hans Mos, pa reuni cu nan pa asina por tin un intercambio di informacion rond di e investigacion riba e desaparicio di su yiu muher Natalee. Algo cu Mos a bai di acuerdo cune. “Nos debe e famia un splicacion di kico nos ta haciendo. E ta un caso lamentabel y tristo y nan tin derecho riba informacion. Esei nos ta bai duna nan tambe. Informacion riba e caso” Mos a declara ainda na prensa diabierna atardi laat despues cu a bira conoci cu nan a perde nan caso contra rumannan Kalpoe cu diasabra a recobra nan libertad.

Loke cu Twitty no tabata sa ta cu autoridad local tabatin otro intencion acerca. Esta cu lo a interoga e mama y posiblemente e tata tambe, unabes cu nan caba cu nan session di ‘informacion’.

E intencion tabata cu lo a warda riba Twitty na edificio di Ministerio Publico pa 8’or y mei diasabra mainta. Esaki pues tabata e plan cu autoridad tabata kier pa tur hende tin. Pero en realidad e plan tabata otro. A dicidi cu ta cambia localidad y ta topa e mayornan di Natalee Holloway na warda di polis na Playa enves di Ministerio Publico.
Pues tabata ya den careda di 8’or y algo cu por a nota presencia caba di Fiscal Dop Kruimel cu a yega warda di polis prome y a drenta di e porta di dilanti. Despues a sigui yegada di Fiscal Mayor Hans Mos cu tambe a drenta warda di polis pero e la opta pa drenta for di patras, hincando su auto prome den e parkeerplaats paden y drenta di porta di banda.

Mester nota cu e unico medio local presente pa cubri esaki tabata Bon Dia Aruba cu a haci su investigacion necesario y a logra haya e informacion necesario. Aki a sigui e parti di wardamento riba e famia Twitty, pasobra a kere cu cos a cambia, ya cu ningun hende tabata aparece.

Diripiente mei ora mas laat cu programa, den careda di 9’or di mainta a aparece un grupito di 6 pa 7 persona cu a cruza caya banda di Cuba’s Cooking y drenta warda di polis for di porta principal, esta dilanti. Entre e grupo aki a nota presencia di Beth Twitty den jeans y camisa blauw, sigui pa su Abogado mericano John Q. Kelly cu tambe tabata bisti hopi casual y a drenta cu un cara serio den warda di polis. E momento ei ainda nan no tabata sa kico e plan tabata.

Despues di mas of menos un ora y algo, a nota salida di tanto fiscal Kruimel como Mos, mientras cu keto bai Twitty y delegacion tabata paden. A dura mas di 5 ora despues ora cu diripiente Twitty y delegacion a bandona warda di polis for di porta di dilanti, rabia y a nenga di duna declaracion na prensa. Despues a drenta nan auto y a bandona e sitio. Bon Dia Aruba tabatin conocemento di e plan aki delanta, pero no por a divulga nada pa no trece e plan di autoridad na peliger. Y por nota cu e plan lo a funciona, aunke no a logra haya comentario si di Twitty y tampoco Fiscal riba con nan parti a bai den e caso aki. Riba combinacion di potretnan por a haya un impresion di e momentonan di movesion dilanti di Warda di Polis di Playa.
 

Sure!

[Nut44x4]

LOL Sunny...I was just getting ready to post that 

[SunnyinTX]

LOL Sunny...I was just getting ready to post that 

oooppsssss sorry...back to lurking for me....

[klaasend]

Same Bondia article 12/3/07:

[Silverfox]

the separate "corruption" investigation

I have never seen anywhere that they are actively Investigating the Corruption/Cover up in Natalee's case. Where do you see this? The Dutch have had this case for 16 months now and I have seen no clues they are gonna do anything about it. We know the Arubans certainly have no intentions of exposing anyone involved in the cover up.

There is a separate "corruption" investigation going on concerning the government itself.  When the Dutch Investigators were on Aruba  it was said that they were involved in two separate investigations -- one a corruption investigation involving land deals and casinos, and the second one involving Nat.  I have often felt that there might be a connection between the two separate and distinct investigation.  That the Nat cover-up might very well be a small result of a much bigger issue.

[SunnyinTX]

LOL Sunny...I was just getting ready to post that 

i tried it through the translation site on line and it was gibberish to me..so I didn't bother to post that...hope fully some one can.....there is also a picture of Beth and JQ on that site

[blah]

the separate "corruption" investigation

I have never seen anywhere that they are actively Investigating the Corruption/Cover up in Natalee's case. Where do you see this? The Dutch have had this case for 16 months now and I have seen no clues they are gonna do anything about it. We know the Arubans certainly have no intentions of exposing anyone involved in the cover up.

Agreed, they will never expose the corruption. Mos' job is to prosecute the killing without exposing the coverup.

I believe this is probably the most likely scenario also

[SunnyinTX]

Same Bondia article 12/3/07:

thanks klaas.....