Natalee Case Discussion #703 12/8 - 12/11//2007

[NYC_lover]

NYC,

Can you confirm for me that the Dutch do not ever extradite Dutch nationals and that it is a violation of their basic Constitution to do so?

Would they not have to be tried in The Netherlands under any and all circumstances?

I do not want anyone to get the false hope that anyone, least of all a minor when crime committed, is ever going to be handed over by the Dutch to stand trial in a foreign country.  Never happen.

.

Not sure about your question but maybe this is an answer on your question.

Extradition
The Netherlands has extradition with another country. The Netherlands authoriteits can come along work entirely for an extradition. I have no idea about the extradition law and (International) law. I am sure, when someone get an extradition request to another country, where the Netherlands has an extradition with. The person has need a International lawyer. Because in the another country where this person has something has done, there is another law.
But in the Holloway case, Aruba is Dutch territory and there is Dutch law. Then there is no International lawyer need.
Only an extradition because Aruba is not the Netherlands. They have just many things look like on the Netherlands, only in Aruba there is much better weather.
But again about extradition, I think everyone can get a extradition when he or she becomes suspicious of involvement at an illegal offence. I think also when someone is under the 18. Of course must the Netherlands, with the concerning country an extradition request have.

I hope u get something new from this. It becomes time for, there more in will deepen for me.
When there is anything else, please ask again!

[dennisintn]

The Dutch do not extradite Dutch Nationals.  It is against their Constitution.

Therefore, any Dutch citizen is always going to be going before one of those famous Dutch judges who never met a suspect they didn't like.

Now isn't THAT special!

.

this was not an extradition from holland to another country. remember their big excuse for letting jvds go to holland in 2005, was because holland and the islands are all one big country, and jvds could be called in at any time for anything a.l.e. needed.  turned out they were wrong about just being able to ask them to come in and talk.  paulus is just twisting people and actions to suit his needs of controlling natalee's case.  moving jvds from holland to aruba isn't much more involved than transfering a prisoner from one jail to another in the same town.  that's what we were lead to believe anyway.
dennisintn

[Anna]

The Dutch do not extradite Dutch Nationals.  It is against their Constitution.

Therefore, any Dutch citizen is always going to be going before one of those famous Dutch judges who never met a suspect they didn't like.

Now isn't THAT special!

.

this was not an extradition from holland to another country. remember their big excuse for letting jvds go to holland in 2005, was because holland and the islands are all one big country, and jvds could be called in at any time for anything a.l.e. needed.  turned out they were wrong about just being able to ask them to come in and talk.  paulus is just twisting people and actions to suit his needs of controlling natalee's case.  moving jvds from holland to aruba isn't much more involved than transfering a prisoner from one jail to another in the same town.  that's what we were lead to believe anyway.
dennisintn

Yes, I agree Dennis but I am afraid some harbor the hope that because of various treaties in place, there is even a slim hope for extradition to this country, the U.S., because of a civil rights violation of our citizen.  Not within the Dutch system but to stand trial under U.S. laws.  I am just saying this won't happen and we should not get hopes up for it only to have them dashed again.


Note:

Article 8 deals with the extradition of nationals. It contains two provisions similar to those included in some of our other recently signed extradition treaties. It grants the Executive Authority the discretionary power to extradite its own nationals. If extradition is denied on the basis of nationality, the requested Party undertakes to submit the case to its competent authorities for the purpose of prosecution, provided that Party has jurisdiction over the offense. This article thus takes into account the law of the Netherlands ordinarily prohibiting the extradition of Dutch nationals but allowing for their prosecution in the Netherlands for offenses committed abroad.

Article 8 also contains an innovation. It provides that the requested Party may not refuse extradition solely on the basis of nationality where there exists a treaty between the Parties on the execution of foreign penal sanctions. Such agreements, more often referred to as prisoner transfer treaties, would, for example, allow a Dutch national tried and convicted in the United States to return to the Netherlands to serve out his ordered term of incarceration. [*7] This provision was put in Article 8 to provide for liberalization of the nationality clause should the Parties in the future conclude such an agreement.

[NYC_lover]

The Dutch are holding and refuse to extradite a suspect in the 9/11 attack on this country.  I am not sure he is even a Dutch national. 

Remember the words from Paulus the first night Beth arrived:

You have no jurisdiction!


We can't get them to extradite for crimes committed here where we do have jurisdiction.  They just refuse to do it no matter what we say as we have seen with this terrorist.  Even France cooperated far better than the Dutch in this regard.

They don't respect our system.

.

I think this is really true: They don't respect our system.
But it law systeem, I hate this so great.

There was a men in Suriname. He has killed his father. Was never go to the jail in Suriname, and lives free here in the Netherlands.
And 10 times councils where he works? He works by the Dutch Government in The Hague.
Very high corruption in the Netherlands!!!!!

[dennisintn]

Reporter; Paulus, how do you feel about this recent turn of events, and your son's pending release from detention?
Paulus; Words escape me, but I am highly aroused that my son will be free to find me another naive tourist to make disappear.
[/quote]

this would be extremely funny except that it might be true.
dennisintn

[NYC_lover]

Of course......I would prefer that Paulus be wearing that same wedding band around his neck  

Ok, no idea about the wearing neckless. IMO has nothing to do with the Catholics.

[Anna]

NYC,

Thank you.  I have read this is the case and that other members of the European Union are concerned but they just can't do much with the Dutch to bring them in line with the other countries who are members of the EU.

We Dutch can be stubborn, can't we?  Any reform will have to come from within or it will not happen is what I think for Dutch will never be forced to do much of anything.  They have to get tired of it and make the changes themselves or they would make any reforms just not work one way or another. 

Also have read many things about Dutch judges being corrupt.  These days, a system that operates in secret is going to have this I am afraid.  More open courts might prevent some of this, I don't know.  But all human beings are capable of corruption and wrong doing.  It helps to hold them to public scrutiny in my opinion.

.

[Blue Moon]

The Dutch do not extradite Dutch Nationals.  It is against their Constitution.

Therefore, any Dutch citizen is always going to be going before one of those famous Dutch judges who never met a suspect they didn't like.

Now isn't THAT special!

.

this was not an extradition from holland to another country. remember their big excuse for letting jvds go to holland in 2005, was because holland and the islands are all one big country, and jvds could be called in at any time for anything a.l.e. needed.  turned out they were wrong about just being able to ask them to come in and talk.  paulus is just twisting people and actions to suit his needs of controlling natalee's case.  moving jvds from holland to aruba isn't much more involved than transfering a prisoner from one jail to another in the same town.  that's what we were lead to believe anyway.
dennisintn

Remember, Jorans Dutch lawyer did not fight the extradition back to Aruba.  Remember Quido's (is this spelled right?) lawyer did and he was not sent back.  Joran was better off being sent back to Aruba for his protection by his father and judges. Guido was not best served being sent back to Aruba.

[NYC_lover]

NYC,

Thank you.  I have read this is the case and that other members of the European Union are concerned but they just can't do much with the Dutch to bring them in line with the other countries who are members of the EU.

We Dutch can be stubborn, can't we?  Any reform will have to come from within or it will not happen is what I think for Dutch will never be forced to do much of anything.  They have to get tired of it and make the changes themselves or they would make any reforms just not work one way or another. 

Also have read many things about Dutch judges being corrupt.  These days, a system that operates in secret is going to have this I am afraid.  More open courts might prevent some of this, I don't know.  But all human beings are capable of corruption and wrong doing.  It helps to hold them to public scrutiny in my opinion.

.

Oh yeah Dutch people can be stubborn, I am very much time stubborn and then I get a big brawl in the house. And tell my parents I do what I want to do.  Not really good for me, because I must listing to my parents and take them advise, because they are older.

What is this, These days, a system that operates in secret is going to have this I am afraid.
Where is a operates in secret? Please, tell me more about it, maybe I don't have heard this.

[NYC_lover]

Remember, Jorans Dutch lawyer did not fight the extradition back to Aruba.  Remember Quido's (is this spelled right?) lawyer did and he was not sent back.  Joran was better off being sent back to Aruba for his protection by his father and judges. Guido was not best served being sent back to Aruba.

Blue Moon of KY - there is no fight for stop the extradition to Aruba. Because they are Dutch KLPD are involved in the research.
And I early wrote Aruba is almost the Netherlands.
With Guido his arrested was something else doing on, he just get only few questions without dention.

[Blue Moon]

Remember, Jorans Dutch lawyer did not fight the extradition back to Aruba.  Remember Quido's (is this spelled right?) lawyer did and he was not sent back.  Joran was better off being sent back to Aruba for his protection by his father and judges. Guido was not best served being sent back to Aruba.

Blue Moon of KY - there is no fight for stop the extradition to Aruba. Because they are Dutch KLPD are involved in the research.
And I early wrote Aruba is almost the Netherlands.
With Guido his arrested was something else doing on, he just get only few questions without dention.

Thanks NYC. You are always a help to us.

[NYC_lover]

Thanks NYC. You are always a help to us.

You are welcome Blue Moon of KY!

[Silverfox]

Investigate the Judges and their brotherhood (and teflon shield).

We all know there is major corruption going on... The judges seems to be a good place to start...

Investigate also the Aruban government at the Minister level... Since Paulus is an apostle of Rudy Croes then it makes sense that the "brotherhood" has deep roots.

Investigate the "Posner" effect ... the brotherhood must get it's funding from somewhere...

If they want the focus off the JK2 then lets re-set the fire where it needs to be -- on discovering who is calling the shots and isolating the masterminds... They believe they are above the law since they are the ones who make the law...

Noriega thought he was above the law too... Now he rots in a U.S. Prison.  IF we can capture a head of state then surely we can capture despots at minister and judicial and polis levels who grow corruption for their own gain...

In the end this may be the only solution...

[Anna]

NYC,

Thank you.  I have read this is the case and that other members of the European Union are concerned but they just can't do much with the Dutch to bring them in line with the other countries who are members of the EU.

We Dutch can be stubborn, can't we?  Any reform will have to come from within or it will not happen is what I think for Dutch will never be forced to do much of anything.  They have to get tired of it and make the changes themselves or they would make any reforms just not work one way or another. 

Also have read many things about Dutch judges being corrupt.  These days, a system that operates in secret is going to have this I am afraid.  More open courts might prevent some of this, I don't know.  But all human beings are capable of corruption and wrong doing.  It helps to hold them to public scrutiny in my opinion.

.

Oh yeah Dutch people can be stubborn, I am very much time stubborn and then I get a big brawl in the house. And tell my parents I do what I want to do.  Not really good for me, because I must listing to my parents and take them advise, because they are older.

What is this, These days, a system that operates in secret is going to have this I am afraid.
Where is a operates in secret? Please, tell me more about it, maybe I don't have heard this.

I'm Dutch-American and stubborn as well, NYC.  At least we know we are, haha, unlike some who don't recognize it.

By operates in secret, I refer to the manner in which Dutch court is conducted.  We have many cases broadcast on TV in live time in this country so to us it seems very secretive that no one is allowed in the courtroom from the press for example during the trials and hearings before judges.  It is required to be public in this country except for juveniles.

.

[Silverfox]

Investigate the Judges and their brotherhood (and teflon shield).

We all know there is major corruption going on... The judges seems to be a good place to start...

Investigate also the Aruban government at the Minister level... Since Paulus is an apostle of Rudy Croes then it makes sense that the "brotherhood" has deep roots.

Investigate the "Posner" effect ... the brotherhood must get it's funding from somewhere...

If they want the focus off the JK2 then lets re-set the fire where it needs to be -- on discovering who is calling the shots and isolating the masterminds... They believe they are above the law since they are the ones who make the law...

Noriega thought he was above the law too... Now he rots in a U.S. Prison.  IF we can capture a head of state then surely we can capture despots at minister and judicial and polis levels who grow corruption for their own gain...

In the end this may be the only solution...

btw... take a good look at the Posner cases that Smid has been involved with and you will get my drift...

[Anna]

With all that has been going on of late, I have to wonder why in the world the vd Sloots and their evil cadre are all over the newspapers, preening and posing, pants unzipped, see through paraphernalia and all and generally seen as celebrating as though they are so happy that this young girl is still missing.

Is this not the height of callous behavior and poor taste?

[robots]

the situation here is tragic

one of these days, the people involved in this corruption are going to mess with the wrong person(s)

im anxiously awaiting that day, and in particular i am waiting for paulus and joran
to step on the wrong toes of someone that will solve the "NON ANSWERING of questions with the TRUTHFUL answers  once and for all"

that day is coming

[NYC_lover]

I'm Dutch-American and stubborn as well, NYC.  At least we know we are, haha, unlike some who don't recognize it.

By operates in secret, I refer to the manner in which Dutch court is conducted.  We have many cases broadcast on TV in live time in this country so to us it seems very secretive that no one is allowed in the courtroom from the press for example during the trials and hearings before judges.  It is required to be public in this country except for juveniles.

.

Are u 50%, 25%, 12,5% or 6,25% Dutch? Unlike some who don't recognize it. Lol.... But not only Dutch people been this. 
Ah, I understand about the operates in secret. That is many time in the Netherlands. It depends on the process. When its a great process, OM and judges don't want media or people in the court. No idea, or that is stipulated legally.

[Buckeye]

Lalas

I have always remembered Satish's intern statement.  That's why I have no problem with the "beach" story.  There was a road that went to the beach.  If Joran wanted to dropped at the beach, he would have been dropped at the beach, not North of Marriott.  They needed to account for possibly being seen on that road, especially with the gardener witness.  I just wonder if the Racket  Club had a white pick up (that the fisherman could have seen).  They all hung out there.

[Anna]

I'm Dutch-American and stubborn as well, NYC.  At least we know we are, haha, unlike some who don't recognize it.

By operates in secret, I refer to the manner in which Dutch court is conducted.  We have many cases broadcast on TV in live time in this country so to us it seems very secretive that no one is allowed in the courtroom from the press for example during the trials and hearings before judges.  It is required to be public in this country except for juveniles.

.

Are u 50%, 25%, 12,5% or 6,25% Dutch? Unlike some who don't recognize it. Lol.... But not only Dutch people been this. 
Ah, I understand about the operates in secret. That is many time in the Netherlands. It depends on the process. When its a great process, OM and judges don't want media or people in the court. No idea, or that is stipulated legally.

80% with 20% Scots-Irish just to give me a temper from the Irish, lol.

.