Natalee Case Discussion #704 12/11 - 12/18/2007

[AZSunny]

there is no connection to any sort of truth in Mos's words.  Mos is a dolt, trying to deflect responsibility to make Aruba look less culpable.

Agree. Have we once heard Hans Mos speak to the validity, or lack thereof, of the original investigation and court cases that followed? Has Mos ever once questioned why the same judge that released the three suspects is still releasing them? No, he rolled over.

Mos is just a puppet for the powers in Holland that want the case to go away. He came to put on a show and now he has high-tailed it back to the motherland just like all the other creeps involved in the case.

Whoa,  I am trying to catch up here, but is Mos now out of Aruba?  If so, when did this happen?  thanks.

[Anna]

Our governor did endorse and signal a boycott with a formal meeting with  Beth & Jug.  However, governors have a voice in international affairs, but a voice that is heard only statewide, so it is to no avail whatsoever that he did this, except that I admire him for having the fortitude to stand up and be counted.

What about Spencer Bachus?  He made statements in the beginning
in support of the families....then after "the Aruban Delegation"
met with him, he has been silent.  What did they say to shut him up?

He said "Wiretaps" and this is what I was asking about earlier.  What does that mean.

[Anna]

I just find it shocking that JQK hasn't demanded to know how they know Natalee is dead? Again, this is akin to holding her hostage.

How many aruban officials have said that and yet never been confronted to show the proof? I count at least 4 or 5.

Perhaps they are holding her hostage and the stoooopid Americans are not playing the game correctly.  Maybe they should agree to just accept whatever is left of Natalee and go away as Jug once offered to do. 

That may have worked two years ago but after all this time, it is about justice and treatment of an American citizen, not only Natalee now.  I wonder if Beth would have told them just give her back and I will go away and take my boycott with me things would have gone differently this time.

Could asking for justice be what caused Explosive to become nothing at all?  Withholding information after you say you have it is just as bad as withholding the physical remains, same thing.
.

.

[Tylergal]

I am about to send my Christmas cards out and I got a little rubber stampy thing made for them (after last week) that says, "Aruba, every mother's nightmare," which goes on the back flap.

[Dayhiker]

there is no connection to any sort of truth in Mos's words.  Mos is a dolt, trying to deflect responsibility to make Aruba look less culpable.

Agree. Have we once heard Hans Mos speak to the validity, or lack thereof, of the original investigation and court cases that followed? Has Mos ever once questioned why the same judge that released the three suspects is still releasing them? No, he rolled over.

Mos is just a puppet for the powers in Holland that want the case to go away. He came to put on a show and now he has high-tailed it back to the motherland just like all the other creeps involved in the case.

Whoa,  I am trying to catch up here, but is Mos now out of Aruba?  If so, when did this happen?  thanks.

Just assuming Sunny, but according to Mos himself it's not his case, he was only helping another Prosecutor. Helped a whole lot, didn't he? Heard a peep out of him lately?

He could be in Aruba, holed up with Pauly and the Prosecutor gang trying to figure out how they're going to spin closing the case.

[Tamikosmom]

I contend that Holland's desire to hold onto Aruba and keep the island from aligning itself with Chavez ... is just another conflict of interest that abounds in the Natalee Holloway case.  The implication is ... the "powers that be" in Holland will not undermine the corrupt Aruban investigation.

If Holland was serious in regards to her desire that justice for Natalee Holloway prevails ... in the initial stages of the Aruban investigation the "powers that be" would have strongly advised Aruba that the FBI or ... another international investigative agency should be called upon ... one whose members have no personal or professional relationship with Paulus van der Sloot.  I cannot comprehend how the Dutch and Arubans are allowed to investigate ... prosecute and ... judge their own.  What is the definition of "conflict of interest" under Dutch law?

Janet

+++++++++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE:  Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

[Dayhiker]

Hans Mos
ABC NEWS
November 26, 2007

Hans Mos, Aruba's chief prosecutor, told ABC News he believes the the new evidence makes the case against the three men stronger than it was two years.

"We are convinced if we had had this evidence we have now they would not have been released by the court at that time," Mos said.

Maybe Hans just doesn't understand Dutch Law, Janet, the way it is practiced in Aruba anyway.

[Dayhiker]

I contend that Holland's desire to hold onto Aruba and keep the island from aligning itself with Chavez ... is just another conflict of interest that abounds in the Natalee Holloway case.  The implication is ... the "powers that be" in Holland will not undermine the corrupt Aruban investigation.

If Holland was serious in regards to her desire that justice for Natalee Holloway prevails ... in the initial stages of the Aruban investigation the "powers that be" would have strongly advised Aruba that the FBI or ... another international investigative agency should be called upon ... one whose members have no personal or professional relationship with Paulus van der Sloot.  I cannot comprehend how the Dutch and Arubans are allowed to investigate ... prosecute and ... judge their own.  What is the definition of "conflict of interest" under Dutch law?

Janet

+++++++++++++++++

Jossy Mansur
NANCY GRACE
October 4, 2005

GRACE:  Jossy, regarding the connection, what I perceived to be a close connection between the judge, Paulus Van Der Sloot and the retired chief of police who initially handled Natalee`s case, Van Der Stratten, were they friends?

MANSUR: Of course, they were friends. It stands to reason they were friends because Paul Van Der Sloot had many friends within the police department; he had many friends within the Department of Justice. And he had many friends with -- and he was friendly with all the judges in Aruba. He worked out of the same office as they did and did the same work.

I cannot comprehend how the Dutch and Arubans are allowed to investigate ... prosecute and ... judge their own.


It's simple Janet, they don't.

[blah]

I just find it shocking that JQK hasn't demanded to know how they know Natalee is dead? Again, this is akin to holding her hostage.

How many aruban officials have said that and yet never been confronted to show the proof? I count at least 4 or 5.

I thought this was one of the main reasons for meeting with Mos, to find out this information.  So I had thought that they did but were not discussing it for a reason.

But it could well be that this also falls into that category of nothing new being revealed meaning Mos did not share anything more in this regard after all.

And we were told it was new information that gave Mos this knowledge.  There have been several 180 degree turns during the course of this investigation.  Mos appears to be the latest one.  To know Natalee is dead, someone would have had to have physically seen her.  I can't think of another way this could happen.

And if they know she is dead for a fact, they have to know some other things besides just this one fact.

you know, for the caliber of attorney that JQK is supposed to be, I'm sure not impressed. Not yet anyhow.

WTF has he done since comming on board? 

I give him credit for the subpeona delivered to Joran via Bo Dietle but other than that, what has he done? Is he just like Taco - in it for the publicity?  Ya think he is really doing anything quietly behind the scenes, waiting for Mos/Aruba to make their final move before he starts playing his cards?  Does he have any cards? I dont know, Beth seemed to hint that she might reveal some evidence in a second book, maybe they do have some moves left.  Hard to say.

I think I just had an entire conversation with myself here and didnt figure a damn thing out 

[Dayhiker]

I just find it shocking that JQK hasn't demanded to know how they know Natalee is dead? Again, this is akin to holding her hostage.

How many aruban officials have said that and yet never been confronted to show the proof? I count at least 4 or 5.

IIRC Frank, it started with Jan van der Straten saying that on June 10, 2005 so they must have known early on.

[Tamikosmom]

Maybe the "existing" information which Hans Mos is referring to ... "existing" information which has been reexamined ... has a connection to the media release made by Rudy Croes' spokesperson on June 10, 2005 ... the media release that stated that the eighteen year old American citizen from Alabama was confirmed dead and ... the location of her body was known.

Janet

++++++++++++++++++


Spokesperson for Rudy Croes
FOX NEWS
June 11, 2005

David Cruz, a spokesman for the Aruban Minister of Justice told FOX News Natalee Holloway , who was on vacation with friends with a graduation trip when she disappeared, was confirmed dead and that authorities knew the location of her body.


http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/11/30/aruba.holloway/index.html

Hans Mos
CNN
November 30, 2007

Mos has told CNN he believes authorities have enough evidence to prove Holloway is dead, even if her body is never found. He has suggested her death was an accident.

The new evidence against the three men was gathered from advanced techniques used to re-examine existing information, including cell phone records and text messages exchanged the night Holloway disappeared, Mos has said.

[WhiskeyGirl]

just a piece about Gottenbos and I've written about it, whenever I used his name in a title on my blog, the hits from the Hague were 5-10 times higher. All from different IP's.

I am not a big proponent of the connections to the Hague theories but this was something interesting.

The Gottenbos family is related to the Sloots and Anita has her connections, possibly Paulus too but my understanding is that those connections came via Anita early on.

I believe the Hague connections if for no other reason that the Dutch sat back on their fat asses and watched this whole investigation being run as a transparent scam and did nothing. Nobody can convince me they could not have stepped in if they had wanted. They are Aruba's tit.

I wonder who is updating the Wiki entries.  Maybe someone from the Hague?  IIRC, Princess Mabel and her husband were updating their entries in Wiki and got caught.

Maybe Anita is related to Mabel?  Or the Queen?

[dennisintn]

mum,
I contacted Jean Akers in Cambodia, left a voice message and an email. She responded asking if she could help.

I asked her to confirm or deny the passage in Beth's book, twice, but haven't heard back from her.
[/quote]

sounds like a confirmation to me
[/quote]

A representative of our own State Department at a celebration of
the release of a suspect in the murder of an American tourist.....
talk about politically incorrect!!
[/quote]


Very sick of her and she should be called out on it. I agree with Blah here, by not answering Frank's inquiry (she is a paid public servant of the US, they supposedly answer to the people who pay their salaries) she may as well have confirmed it.
[/quote]

maybe akers is asleep at the switch.  make your next inquiry to her former boss on aruba, and her boss in thailand.  if she's a friend of the sloot family, did she give recommendations and opinions to bacchus and maybe other politicians that followed the sloot line of "blame the victim".  does make you wonder, doesn't it?
dennisintn

[klaasend]

O/T

I apologize for being off topic.  WhiskyGirl, would you like to use one of these avatars?

1.



2.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I been wondering about why the forensic scientist was looking for evidence.

Why would he expect to find evidence after over two years?  Why would he suggest that there is no evidence?  Maybe there never was evidence in the places he searched?   

If the places he looked two years plus after the fact, were not part of any crime scene, is it reasonable or logical to expect to find evidence that a crime had been committed?  Anyone else wonder about this?

Did he check the other places of interest?  The VDS compound?  The rocks?  The boat of Koen G.?  The Kalpoe yard?

Did he ask about the lies?  What are lies evidence of?

Wouldn't KLPD/ALE have taken any evidence?  Did he look where Joran reported leaving her?  Did he follow Joran's path at the beach?

What kind of evidence was this man looking for?  Anyone ask? 

Maybe he thought someone would leave a body lying around?   

[WhiskeyGirl]

O/T

I apologize for being off topic.  WhiskyGirl, would you like to use one of these avatars?

1.



2.

I like number 2.  Thank you.

[klaasend]

I been wondering about why the forensic scientist was looking for evidence.

Why would he expect to find evidence after over two years?  Why would he suggest that there is no evidence?  Maybe there never was evidence in the places he searched?   

If the places he looked two years plus after the fact, were not part of any crime scene, is it reasonable or logical to expect to find evidence that a crime had been committed?  Anyone else wonder about this?

Did he check the other places of interest?  The VDS compound?  The rocks?  The boat of Koen G.?  The Kalpoe yard?

Did he ask about the lies?  What are lies evidence of?

Wouldn't KLPD/ALE have taken any evidence?  Did he look where Joran reported leaving her?  Did he follow Joran's path at the beach?

What kind of evidence was this man looking for?  Anyone ask? 

Maybe he thought someone would leave a body lying around?   

My guess is he either didn't look for anything at all, just was there and wanted to look like he did something.  Or, he wanted to make sure there WASN'T anything around that was missed that would implicate Joran or Paulus.

[WhiskeyGirl]

I found this piece on the internet about "Dutch Law In Action" - does this look familiar to anyone?

http://www.uu.nl/uupublish/content/dutchlawinaction2003.pdf

The selection procedure for outsiders was professionaliz ed in 1996 when a private assessment center started to advise on the suitability of the candidates. The magistrates’ academy revised its selection procedure to take into account the outsiders’ model in 2000. Among the competencies tested are the ability to express oneself in word and on paper, the ability to listen carefully and to decide accurately, sensitivity, self-confidence and persuasiveness. Partly because of the restricted capacity (two entrant groups per year) only 20% of the applicants for the magistrates’ academy are selected, as against 65% of the outsiders. As a result the growing percentage of outsiders explains the increase in the total number of judges (from 778 in 1990 to 1640 in 2000). This development has influenced the age and the gender distribution of the judiciary: nine out of ten of the judges are under 40 years of age, and three out of four female judges work at district court level.

Apart from regular judges mention should be made of substitute judges. Substitute judges, who have their main occupation elsewhere, occasionally serve on the bench as fully fledged judges. This phenomenon has survived in an adapted version despite protests about conflicting interests (attorneys as substitute judges). It is an excellent example of informal pragmatism: substitute judges are cheap and flexible, so one has to try to find a way of avoiding the problem of conflicting interests.

Dutch law in action fits this pattern of informal paternalism. The rare examples of lay justice have been legitimized by professional (non-legal) expertise rather than by the idea of democratic participation. In the same vein judges are not allowed to publish dissenting opinions. Judicial authority is thought not to have doubts or to harbor controversy, but to speak with one voice. For a long time prosecution guidelines were secret because an official announcement of non-enforcement might confuse law-abiding citizens. The legal elite as a whole sees to it that it conveys the moral integrity and the expert impartiality of the law and the legal profession.

No doubt, Dutch law in action has been too indulgent, producing slackness and allowing abuses and selfserving practices. The turn towards legalism and control, however, threatens to do away with the vices of Dutch law in action together with its virtues. More than anything else informal pragmatism is sensitive to reality. Because of its non-legalistic leanings Dutch law in action favored a pragmatic public
administration, a therapeutic criminal policy and an informal civil justice. It still does so since legal professionals and practitioners believe in its basic tenets. May this essay not only inform foreign readers but also persuade Dutch jurists that informal pragmatism is worth preserving; its inconspicious and salutary influence is easily overlooked.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Thanks for the angel!   

[dennisintn]

the "forensic scientist" (cough, spit, sputter) walked around the house and yard so he would have talking points, and could unequivocably say that "given my status as forensic scientists, i can say that jvds is innocent and there is no evidence to prove otherwise".  then he drove the route given by one of jvds' lies and can now say with all assurance and authority of his office as "forensic scientist", that jvds couldn't possibly have harmed the little tourist girl in the time available to him that morning.  notice that he conveniently forgets to mention that nobody was allowed to look even over the fence at anything or jvds himself for l0 days after natalee's 'vanishment'.  the whole thing was for show and tell, aruba style.
dennisintn