Natalee Case Discussion #704 12/11 - 12/18/2007

[sirensong]

LOL, Silverfox, the same thing happened to my post.  I agree with you completely.  And your thoughts on Mos and his reasoning makes sense, and I pray to God that is what he is doing.  IMHO, this case cannot be solved until the whole house of cards falls. 

[sirensong]

Geez louise, everytime I post it is a major mess up.   Klass, I accidently posted this on the prayer thread, could you please delete it?  Thanks, sorry






Bringing this over from BFN.  I tried to do a better translation.  Not sure if is, but here goes.  Posted by PearlUSA, BFN

Geen ‘afgang’ voor OM Aruba


DE ONUITGESPROKEN gedachte achter het editorial van de Amigoe van woensdag 12 december over het optreden van het OM in de zaak van de verdwijning van Natalee Holloway is dat justitie de opheldering van een ernstig misdrijf afhankelijk zou moeten maken van de publicitaire schade die door dat optreden Aruba zou worden aangedaan. De staatsinrichting van Aruba vaart een verstandiger koers dan hier wordt aanbevolen, namelijk door het OM in hoge mate zelfstandig te laten. Wij van het OM leven niet in isolement of in een ivoren toren, maar buigen niet voor al dan niet georchestreerd mediageweld, zeker niet wanneer wij menen de sleutel in handen te hebben tot de opheldering van een dramatische gebeurtenis. Overigens is nog de vraag waardoor Aruba uiteindelijk meer schade oploopt: door een mogelijk verwijt niet alles gedaan te hebben wat wel tot de mogelijkheden behoorde om tot oplossing te komen, of door de vaststelling dat het OM daarvoor inderdaad tot op de bodem van zijn gereedschapskist is gegaan?
Een tweede opmerkelijk punt is de verschillende taal die journalisten en juristen spreken. Wanneer de Amigoe het over een ‘afgang’ van het OM heeft in de Natalee Holloway-zaak lijkt de redactie te refereren aan een soort sportwedstrijd, waar een van de partijen door gebrek aan conditie of behendigheid de wedstrijd verliest. Dat is een beeld van een strafproces zoals het door de Amerikaanse televisie worden gecreëerd: openbare aanklager versus verdediger, met ieder een eigen versie van de waarheid achter de beschuldiging, met een passieve jury die de winnaar aanwijst. Dat beeld stemt niet overeen met de werkelijkheid van het Arubaanse strafproces, waarin de rechter zelf op zoek is naar de materiële waarheid en deze ook vaststelt, en waarvoor de politie en het OM de bouwstenen aanleveren.
Dat het OM en de rechter van mening kunnen verschillen over de vraag of het bewijs van de beschuldiging uiteindelijk is geleverd betekent geen ‘afgang’ voor het OM. Indien de rechter wel altijd het oordeel van het OM zou volgen, krijgt de rechter juist weer het verwijt dat hij alleen maar een stempelaar (‘rubber stamp’) van de wensen van het OM is. Ook als de afloop van een strafzaak voor het OM niet volledig zeker is, moet het OM een zaak durven aan te brengen. Zo is de rechtspraak inzake witwassen uiteindelijk een richting ingeslagen die het OM al eerder voor juist hield, maar waar eerst vrijspraken vielen. Het OM moet een vrijspraak of ontslag van rechtsvervolging in het belang van de waarheidsvinding of van de rechtsontwikkeling durven riskeren
Ten slotte. Het is ondanks al onze voorlichting kennelijk aan de redactie ontgaan, dat het OM alleen bij nieuwe feiten een dwangmiddel mag toepassen dat al eerder werd toegepast. De kop van een persbericht waarin staat dat het OM ten tweede male een verdachte aanhoudt, kan dus per definitie niet anders luiden dan: op grond van nieuwe feiten.
De rechter die in de Holloway-casus in alle drie zaken het nieuwe optreden van het OM heeft getoetst, is kennelijk – met het OM – van oordeel geweest dat die nieuwe feiten er inderdaad waren; anders had hij de toepassing van dwangmiddelen niet toegestaan. Of de daarop volgende verhoren uiteindelijk voldoende gegevens zouden opleveren voor voortzetting van de vrijheidsberoving, moest worden afgewacht. Het Hof, en in navolging ervan, de rechter-commissaris, vond dat de ernstige bezwaren die hiervoor noodzakelijk zijn niet aanwezig waren. Het zij zo: rechters zijn er tenslotte voor het afwegen van en beslissen tussen het opsporingsbelang en het vrijheidsbelang.
Dat in de periode van nieuwe vrijheidsberoving de verdachten niet met enige reactie zijn gekomen toen zij met de nieuwe feiten werden geconfronteerd, maar er het totale zwijgen toe hebben gedaan is hun goed recht, maar wettigt niet de conclusie dat het OM die confrontatie met de nieuwe feiten dan maar achterwege had moeten laten, door de verdachten helemaal niet opnieuw te arresteren. Vrijwillig wilden de verdachten niet bij de politie verschijnen. Na hun eerdere vrijlating hadden de verdachten verklaard dat zij ooit nog wel eens zouden vertellen wat er werkelijk gebeurd is. Daar zijn wij – en velen met ons – wel benieuwd naar.
Zou het vergeeflijk zijn geweest indien het OM – door langdurig en nauwkeurig rechercheren in het bezit gekomen van nieuwe ongerijmdheden ten opzichte van eerdere, al niet kloppende, verklaringen – de sleutel niet in het slot had gestoken en het slot niet had proberen los te krijgen? En de zaak maar op zijn beloop had gelaten onder het motto: jammer voor de ouders van Natalee, maar goed voor Aruba?
N. JÖRG
(waarnemend procureur-generaal)
Aruba
Naschrift redactie:
Geen moment heeft de Amigoe gesteld dat het OM de zaak-Holloway ‘op zijn beloop had moeten laten’. Het is dan ook onjuist van de waarnemend PG, de heer Jörg, om maar ook in die richting te suggereren. Ook heeft deze krant niet geschreven dat justitie op Aruba de drie verdachten ‘helemaal niet opnieuw had moeten arresteren’. De kritiek in het hoofdredactioneel commentaar betrof de pretentieuze persverklaring van vorige maand waarmee het OM volgens de Amigoe onnodig risico’s heeft gelopen. “Allereerst met betrekking tot zijn eigen reputatie die door de afgang in deze kwestie geen goed is gedaan. Maar ook ten aanzien van het gevaar dat het eiland opnieuw internationaal aan de schandpaal wordt genageld, met name in het land waar de meeste toeristen vandaan komen.” PG de heer Jörg legt uit dat het OM het verloop niet ziet als afgang, maar geheel gelukkig zal het opsporingsapparaat er niet mee zijn. Tot slot, natuurlijk dient de rechterlijke macht en dus ook het OM onafhankelijk zijn werk te doen – dat is zelfs een absolute voorwaarde – maar justitie kan zich niet isoleren van de maatschappelijke werkelijkheid.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37898.php

Translation:

No 'disaster' for Aruba


THE ONUITGESPROKEN idea behind the editorial of the Amigoe of Wednesday, December 12 on the actions of the PPS in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is that the judicial clarification of a serious criminal offence should depend on the publicity damage caused by that action Aruba would be affected. The constitution of Aruba momentum a wiser course here is recommended, by the PPS largely independently. We in the PPS do not live in isolation or in an ivory tower, but not bend or not georchestreerd mediageweld, especially when we consider the key hands to the elucidation of a dramatic event. Moreover, even the question which Aruba eventually suffer more damage: a possible accusation not everything done what is a possibility belonged to resolve, or by the finding that the PPS that indeed get to the bottom of his toolbox is gone?
Another noteworthy point is the different language that journalists and lawyers speak. When the Amigoe about a 'failure' of the PPS in the Natalee Holloway case, it appears that the editors to refer to a type of sports, where one of the parties by a lack of fitness or skill loses the race. This is a picture of a criminal such as by the American television be created: Public Prosecutor versus defender and each has its own version of the truth behind the accusation, with a passive jury that the winner designates. That image does not reflect the reality of the Aruban criminal proceedings, in which the judge himself is looking for the truth and this material also finds, and for which the police and the building blocks for delivering.
That the Prosecutor and the court believes may differ on whether the proof of the accusation is ultimately delivered means no 'disaster' for the PPS. If the court is always the discretion of the PPS would follow, the court again precisely the accusation that he is merely a stempelaar ( "rubber stamp") of the demands of the PPS. Even if the outcome of criminal proceedings for the PPS is not completely sure, the case for a dare to apply. Thus, the law on money laundering ultimately a direction that the PPS previously held just before, but where oprostilnim fell. The need for an acquittal or dismissal of legal proceedings in the interest of the truth or the law dare risk
Finally. It is despite all our information to the editors apparently unaware that the OM only when new facts one must apply coercion that has already been applied. The headline of a press release stating that the PPS as a second male suspect continues, can be replaced by definition no different than on the basis of new facts.
The judge in the Holloway case, in all three cases the new action by the PPS has tested, apparently - with the OM - believes that these new facts were indeed there, otherwise he had the application of coercive measures not allowed. Of the subsequent interrogations eventually would yield sufficient data for continuation of liberty, should be awaited. The Court, and in the wake of it, the court commissioner, was that the serious reservations which are necessary not present. So be it: judges are finally for considering and deciding between opsporingsbelang and vrijheidsbelang.
That in the period of new liberty suspects not only response when they come with the new facts were faced, but the total silence have done is their right, but not the conclusion that legitimises the PPS that confrontation with the new Then, just facts failure should have been let by the defendants do not re-arrest. Volunteer wanted the suspects not to the police. After their previous release the suspects had declared that they would ever even have to tell what really happened. We are - and many of us - are curious about.
Would it have been different if the vergeeflijk OM - by long and accurate rechercheren came in possession of new inconsistencies with respect to previous, though not beating, statements - the key in the lock had not put in the lock had not trying to mobilise? And the only thing on his course had left under the motto: sorry for the parents of Natalee, but good for Aruba?
N. JÖRG
(Acting Attorney General)
Aruba
Naschrift editors:
No time, the Amigoe stated that the case for the Holloway "on his course was supposed to be." It is therefore incorrect, the Acting PG, Mr. Jörg, but also in order to suggest that direction. Even this newspaper has not written that justice Aruba on the three suspects' had no need to re-arrest ". The criticism in the comments concerned the hoofdredactioneel pretentious press statement last month that the OM according to Amigoe unnecessary risks has walked. "First of all, with regard to his own reputation by the disaster in this matter is not good. But also with regard to the danger that the island again shamed internationally to be pilloried, especially in the country where most tourists come from. "PG Mr Jörg explains that the PPS progress does not see as a disaster, but fortunately whole criminal will not agree. Finally, of course, the judiciary and therefore the PPS independent work to be done - this is even an absolute prerequisite - but justice can not isolate themselves from social reality.
http://Http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37898.php

[klaasend]

Posted at BFN:

Good day everyone!  I had the opportunity to call my brother, (John Silvetti) for those of you who don't know who I mean today, and here is the update!  As you know the boat got into Aruba yesterday (about 5 pm Aruba time)... A trip that normally takes 9 days took 15 days due to the 10-18 feet continuous seas and partially due to Olga!  So it was rough going out... I am sure the crew is probably a little banged up! By that I mean continuous rough weather is tough on anyone.  But they are there!

John told me today that things are going smoothly.  They are getting all the equipment ready to set up and test.  They will fuel up today and then start the search tomorrow! That is the plan if everything goes smoothly! (Please God let this go smoothly).

In any event, I just want to thank you for all the continued prayers! Let's continue the prayers for Natalee, the Holloway/Twitty family and the Persistence and crew!

Have a good day!

[klaasend]

Need to run to a couple of stores, bbl

[dennisintn]

Need to run to a couple of stores, bbl

take your car.  you're just now getting over being ill.  plus you can haul more stuff home from the stores if you're not running.
dennisintn


(have to tell these people everything)

[Kermit]

Need to run to a couple of stores, bbl

take your car.  you're just now getting over being ill.  plus you can haul more stuff home from the stores if you're not running.
dennisintn


(have to tell these people everything)

ROFLMAO
best post ever!

HA HA HA HA HA

[Kermit]

Hi Monkeys.  I gather there's no news yet from the search as it hasn't begun.  Angie, hope you feel better soon.  I've had that and it's the sickest I've ever been.  Take care of yourself.  What's going on tonight?

 Hi AZ.. Thank you    Been trying to catch up myself here...  Boat  made it.. and my prayers go out to them all.

Food poisoning is the worst I hear!
I wish you a speedy recovery.

[Kermit]

TO THE CREW ON R/V PERSISTENCE - STAY CALM ,LOOK FOR MERMAIDS, AND IF YOU NEED A DOLPHIN CALL FLIPPER! G_d's speed.

[Kermit]

http://www.bucuticam.com/

Looks like a nice day.....where is everybody 

STILL EMPTY

[NYC_lover]

I SO agree! I believe the FBI DO know the truth, and when the time is right for them they will settle this score. They will pick up the sword and bring Justice for Natalee, for Beth, Dave and Natalee's families, and for all of us who believe in Justice. They wont let this go away. Kermit is right. Justice is coming.

It will take the FBI, so far Holland has proven inept. At least Mos is finally admitting they have a problem putting tourism above justice on the shithole that is Aruba. He should have talked to us, we could have told him that over 2 1/2 years ago. Welcome to the club, Hans.

Now that he knows the problem, what is he going to do about it? Is this just more gum flapping and senseless posturing?

Exactly Hans is welcome at the club from Liars, Corruption, Mistakes, Lazy Government public prosecutors and police agents.
Welcome great boy to the LCMLG!

Baby born Hanssie had before Aruba, a job if pers officier van justitie bij het Landelijk Parket (Press/media - public prosecutor by the OM/LP (Landelijk Parket.

16 januari 2007: OM eist celstraf tegen hackers
Tegen twee verdachten heeft het Openbaar Ministerie vandaag voor de rechtbank in Breda jarenlange celstraffen geeist vanwege het verspreiden van spionagesoftware en het kraken van internetrekeningen. Daarvoor gebruikten de verdachten zelfgeschreven virussen die ze op duizenden computers loslieten. Het gaat om de grootste strafzaak over computercriminaliteit in Nederland. Aan de telefoon waren persofficier Hans Mos van het landelijk parket en Bob Kaarls, advocaat van een van de verdachten.
Beluister dit item (Windows Media)

16 January 2007: Public Prosecution Service/OM requires cell sentence against hackers.
Against two suspected have the OM/Public Prosecution Service many years' cell sentences asked today for the court in breda because of spreading espionage software and cracking Internet accounts. For that used suspected itself-written viruses which they released on thousands of computers. It concerns the largest criminal matter concerning computer crime in the Netherlands. To the tel. press officer Hans mos of the rural parquet floor were and bob Kaarls, lawyer of of suspected.

Audi item to listen:
http://www.radio-online.nl/archives/archive_2007-m01.php

http://www.crimesite.nl/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=25

[Dihannah1]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

[Tylergal]

More news from Reality @ BFN from BNH


"Once the boat has been checked and Test Runs completed, it will be searching 24/7 from then on."

Well DUH!  Reality is getting his info from Robin who is getting info from Dave.  Robin is posting at BNH and not BFN.  Yes, it's the bizarro world.

Another reason the case has not been solved:  The Twilight Zone.

[Nut44x4]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

BNH = Bring Natalee Home

[Dihannah1]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

BNH = Bring Natalee Home

Thanks! 

[klaasend]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

It's actually BNH which stands for Bring Natalee Home.  It's a member only site Administered by MIP6, Reality and Lois.  It appears to be the exclusive forum of choice for Robin to post these days.  Go figure 

[Angiex911dsptchr]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

It's actually BNH which stands for Bring Natalee Home.  It's a member only site Administered by MIP6, Reality and Lois.  It appears to be the exclusive forum of choice for Robin to post these days.  Go figure 

 Gag 

[Dihannah1]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

It's actually BNH which stands for Bring Natalee Home.  It's a member only site Administered by MIP6, Reality and Lois.  It appears to be the exclusive forum of choice for Robin to post these days.  Go figure 

Yes, that's why I'm so confused.  This whole thing about her posting at those sites.  Did she ever post here?  Or... well never mind.  Like Tyler says about remaining respectful of family.....  It really worries me about motives...

[Angiex911dsptchr]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

It's actually BNH which stands for Bring Natalee Home.  It's a member only site Administered by MIP6, Reality and Lois.  It appears to be the exclusive forum of choice for Robin to post these days.  Go figure 

Yes, that's why I'm so confused.  This whole thing about her posting at those sites.  Did she ever post here?  Or... well never mind.  Like Tyler says about remaining respectful of family.....  It really worries me about motives...

 Hi DI..  Robin has not posted here that I ever knew of.   Can't figure out WHY in the hell tho she would at RU with all the awful pics of Beth and Natalee.. and posts about her OWN husband.  They refer to him as Duh ~Dave.  Seems to me.. IMO  shes a jealous step mom.  Thats just me  though.

[klaasend]

Hi Monks,  catching up again.  X'cuse my ignorance, but I know BFN, who is BHN?

So glad to see the ship made it safely!  Praying they STAY safe in that one crappy island!

It's actually BNH which stands for Bring Natalee Home.  It's a member only site Administered by MIP6, Reality and Lois.  It appears to be the exclusive forum of choice for Robin to post these days.  Go figure 

Yes, that's why I'm so confused.  This whole thing about her posting at those sites.  Did she ever post here?  Or... well never mind.  Like Tyler says about remaining respectful of family.....  It really worries me about motives...

No, as far as I know Robin has never posted here at SM.  She has posted at BFN, BNH, RU and may have posted once or twice at FOB before it went down but I'm not positive about that.  She has not posted recently at BFN, posts mostly at BNH.

[Tylergal]

It seems to me it is meant to affront Beth at all costs.  By doing so, those enablers allow Natalee and her memory to be pummled,the same intention as the Arubans and Dutch who post on those sites and use language that a Christian would consider offensive.  I guess it depends on what end of the receiving end one is on. 

The very idea of those at BFN alluding to SM being an offensive site and then joining forces with the bitterest on the Internet is offensive to me, because I care about Natalee and I care about her memory and those who love her.