Natalee Case Discussion #704 12/11 - 12/18/2007

[Kat_Gram]

Tylergal, well said. I am just posting so you will know I am still here and present... been really busy, but I always do the daily reading here regardless.
St Nicholas day in the Orthodox Calendar.I went to church for a really long one.
Beautiful service and a little concert after with St. Nicholas giving out small presents to the kids.
I do pray daily as I believe it changes my thinking in a good way.
When I go again soon, I will light a candle specifically for Natalee and the searches and the searchers. From what I understand, this seach will take a while and any results will not be instant. But we have had faith for a couple of years here. 

[mrs. red]

I wonder why Robin isn't posting these updates on BFN herself, instead of Reality?

I asked that question a few pages back and did not get an answer. It seems Robin has left BFN and gone to BNH.  It appears some others from BFN are going into BNH and only occasionally coming back to BFN to post.  Seems really strange that Robin has gone to the other site with the likes of Reality, Mf and so on.  I guess you do what you have to do to get an answer. I call that blackmail--do it my way or else you get no answers.

you don't want to know what I call it...

[Frank]

Does anyone know what the "no disaster in Aruba" article is trying to say? I understood the non translated version as well as the translated one.

Dave is not a stupid man, which makes his tolerance of the BFN hate site more of a head-scratcher.

But do you have to stain this site with their trash at all?

[private eye]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

[private eye]

Does anyone know what the "no disaster in Aruba" article is trying to say? I understood the non translated version as well as the translated one.

Dave is not a stupid man, which makes his tolerance of the BFN hate site more of a head-scratcher.

But do you have to stain this site with their trash at all?

I haven't thought about it before, but the posters at the hate sites probably actually have information concerning that night

[mrs. red]

Hi Monkeys.  I gather there's no news yet from the search as it hasn't begun.  Angie, hope you feel better soon.  I've had that and it's the sickest I've ever been.  Take care of yourself.  What's going on tonight?

 Hi AZ.. Thank you    Been trying to catch up myself here...  Boat  made it.. and my prayers go out to them all.

Food poisoning is the worst I hear!
I wish you a speedy recovery.

I have had food poisoning twice ... so Ang honey, I feel awful for you... once the toxic junk leaves your system you will feel so much better... eat a lot of blueberries, they put some of what the illness takes out back in.. (in a good way) and they help quell the stomach illness...

Klass and CBB... hoping you guys are better too...

SOrry for off topic...

[private eye]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

Not saying that they didn't like each other, they just may not have had much time for each other if that makes sense.

[klaasend]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

Not saying that they didn't like each other, they just may not have had much time for each other if that makes sense.

Private Eye - Exactly.  No way Robin was as close to Natalee as Beth was.  I don't even think Dave was.

[mrs. red]

Does anyone know what the "no disaster in Aruba" article is trying to say? I understood the non translated version as well as the translated one.

Dave is not a stupid man, which makes his tolerance of the BFN hate site more of a head-scratcher.

But do you have to stain this site with their trash at all?

I haven't thought about it before, but the posters at the hate sites probably actually have information concerning that night

Of course they do, and that is what makes me so mad I could spit nails.  The same assbites spewing thier crap are the same ones that have said over and over that they don't have secrets on hellhole island, which is what makes the entire island guilty.. and why I am all in favor of a boycott... they are protecting thier own at all costs, so why shouldn't we?

As for Robin, it doesn't matter if she only saw Natalee twice in her life - you don't cozy up to the very people that helped cover up the murder of your stepdaughter.  Doesn't that disrespect your husband?  Also, I don't believe for one second that Beth would behave this way about any of Robin's kids, who aren't even related to her.  If Robin doesn't care and wants her life to go on like nothing happened, she should stop "lying down with dogs and getting fleas" so to speak... JMHO..

[mrs. red]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

Not saying that they didn't like each other, they just may not have had much time for each other if that makes sense.

Even if they didn't and I am not saying that they didn't, I am saying that regardless she shouldn't be hanging out with those that only serve to cover up what happened.  I am probably not as nice as the rest of y'all... not when it comes to this.

[Tylergal]

Kat_Gram, good to see you here.  I have wondered about you, but it sounds as though you have a full schedule.

Angie, sorry to read about your food poisoning.  Yes, that's some nasty stuff and quantity is not key --- it's quality --- some people just have better immune systems than others.  I pray yours will bulk up and you will get over it shortly but seeing a doctor for proper treatment is a good thing.  Sorry about the friend who is hospitalized from it, but some people do have violent reactions.  Hopefully, the doctor will get all over it so everyone can enjoy Christmas and yes, I know what you are talking about.  Reason I have not eaten pork chops since I was a child.  Yuk.

[memphis]

If you play with snakes, you're going to get bitten.

[Tylergal]

Does anyone know what the "no disaster in Aruba" article is trying to say? I understood the non translated version as well as the translated one.

Dave is not a stupid man, which makes his tolerance of the BFN hate site more of a head-scratcher.

But do you have to stain this site with their trash at all?

I haven't thought about it before, but the posters at the hate sites probably actually have information concerning that night

DISINFORMATION.  How's that?!?

[Tylergal]

It should not matter whether Natalee was the biggest drug addict in the state of Alabama, or whether she turned tricks on the corner for $1.50, whether she was ugly or had 3 horns coming from her head, this child is gone, gone! 

Her mother did everything within a human being's power to get the truth from these sleaze bags whose every word Robin seems to cling to.  Some say that Robin is a Christian and that is her reason for her fairness to these vultures who seem to live off the deceased Natalee. What is Christian about aligning oneself with Judas Iscariot? 

[mrs. red]

well I do hope the search goes well... I am most definately keeping them in my prayers...

going to run out, bbl...

keep the faith Monkeys... eventually good wins.

[klaasend]

Geez louise, everytime I post it is a major mess up.   Klass, I accidently posted this on the prayer thread, could you please delete it?  Thanks, sorry






Bringing this over from BFN.  I tried to do a better translation.  Not sure if is, but here goes.  Posted by PearlUSA, BFN

Geen ‘afgang’ voor OM Aruba


DE ONUITGESPROKEN gedachte achter het editorial van de Amigoe van woensdag 12 december over het optreden van het OM in de zaak van de verdwijning van Natalee Holloway is dat justitie de opheldering van een ernstig misdrijf afhankelijk zou moeten maken van de publicitaire schade die door dat optreden Aruba zou worden aangedaan. De staatsinrichting van Aruba vaart een verstandiger koers dan hier wordt aanbevolen, namelijk door het OM in hoge mate zelfstandig te laten. Wij van het OM leven niet in isolement of in een ivoren toren, maar buigen niet voor al dan niet georchestreerd mediageweld, zeker niet wanneer wij menen de sleutel in handen te hebben tot de opheldering van een dramatische gebeurtenis. Overigens is nog de vraag waardoor Aruba uiteindelijk meer schade oploopt: door een mogelijk verwijt niet alles gedaan te hebben wat wel tot de mogelijkheden behoorde om tot oplossing te komen, of door de vaststelling dat het OM daarvoor inderdaad tot op de bodem van zijn gereedschapskist is gegaan?
Een tweede opmerkelijk punt is de verschillende taal die journalisten en juristen spreken. Wanneer de Amigoe het over een ‘afgang’ van het OM heeft in de Natalee Holloway-zaak lijkt de redactie te refereren aan een soort sportwedstrijd, waar een van de partijen door gebrek aan conditie of behendigheid de wedstrijd verliest. Dat is een beeld van een strafproces zoals het door de Amerikaanse televisie worden gecreëerd: openbare aanklager versus verdediger, met ieder een eigen versie van de waarheid achter de beschuldiging, met een passieve jury die de winnaar aanwijst. Dat beeld stemt niet overeen met de werkelijkheid van het Arubaanse strafproces, waarin de rechter zelf op zoek is naar de materiële waarheid en deze ook vaststelt, en waarvoor de politie en het OM de bouwstenen aanleveren.
Dat het OM en de rechter van mening kunnen verschillen over de vraag of het bewijs van de beschuldiging uiteindelijk is geleverd betekent geen ‘afgang’ voor het OM. Indien de rechter wel altijd het oordeel van het OM zou volgen, krijgt de rechter juist weer het verwijt dat hij alleen maar een stempelaar (‘rubber stamp’) van de wensen van het OM is. Ook als de afloop van een strafzaak voor het OM niet volledig zeker is, moet het OM een zaak durven aan te brengen. Zo is de rechtspraak inzake witwassen uiteindelijk een richting ingeslagen die het OM al eerder voor juist hield, maar waar eerst vrijspraken vielen. Het OM moet een vrijspraak of ontslag van rechtsvervolging in het belang van de waarheidsvinding of van de rechtsontwikkeling durven riskeren
Ten slotte. Het is ondanks al onze voorlichting kennelijk aan de redactie ontgaan, dat het OM alleen bij nieuwe feiten een dwangmiddel mag toepassen dat al eerder werd toegepast. De kop van een persbericht waarin staat dat het OM ten tweede male een verdachte aanhoudt, kan dus per definitie niet anders luiden dan: op grond van nieuwe feiten.
De rechter die in de Holloway-casus in alle drie zaken het nieuwe optreden van het OM heeft getoetst, is kennelijk – met het OM – van oordeel geweest dat die nieuwe feiten er inderdaad waren; anders had hij de toepassing van dwangmiddelen niet toegestaan. Of de daarop volgende verhoren uiteindelijk voldoende gegevens zouden opleveren voor voortzetting van de vrijheidsberoving, moest worden afgewacht. Het Hof, en in navolging ervan, de rechter-commissaris, vond dat de ernstige bezwaren die hiervoor noodzakelijk zijn niet aanwezig waren. Het zij zo: rechters zijn er tenslotte voor het afwegen van en beslissen tussen het opsporingsbelang en het vrijheidsbelang.
Dat in de periode van nieuwe vrijheidsberoving de verdachten niet met enige reactie zijn gekomen toen zij met de nieuwe feiten werden geconfronteerd, maar er het totale zwijgen toe hebben gedaan is hun goed recht, maar wettigt niet de conclusie dat het OM die confrontatie met de nieuwe feiten dan maar achterwege had moeten laten, door de verdachten helemaal niet opnieuw te arresteren. Vrijwillig wilden de verdachten niet bij de politie verschijnen. Na hun eerdere vrijlating hadden de verdachten verklaard dat zij ooit nog wel eens zouden vertellen wat er werkelijk gebeurd is. Daar zijn wij – en velen met ons – wel benieuwd naar.
Zou het vergeeflijk zijn geweest indien het OM – door langdurig en nauwkeurig rechercheren in het bezit gekomen van nieuwe ongerijmdheden ten opzichte van eerdere, al niet kloppende, verklaringen – de sleutel niet in het slot had gestoken en het slot niet had proberen los te krijgen? En de zaak maar op zijn beloop had gelaten onder het motto: jammer voor de ouders van Natalee, maar goed voor Aruba?
N. JÖRG
(waarnemend procureur-generaal)
Aruba
Naschrift redactie:
Geen moment heeft de Amigoe gesteld dat het OM de zaak-Holloway ‘op zijn beloop had moeten laten’. Het is dan ook onjuist van de waarnemend PG, de heer Jörg, om maar ook in die richting te suggereren. Ook heeft deze krant niet geschreven dat justitie op Aruba de drie verdachten ‘helemaal niet opnieuw had moeten arresteren’. De kritiek in het hoofdredactioneel commentaar betrof de pretentieuze persverklaring van vorige maand waarmee het OM volgens de Amigoe onnodig risico’s heeft gelopen. “Allereerst met betrekking tot zijn eigen reputatie die door de afgang in deze kwestie geen goed is gedaan. Maar ook ten aanzien van het gevaar dat het eiland opnieuw internationaal aan de schandpaal wordt genageld, met name in het land waar de meeste toeristen vandaan komen.” PG de heer Jörg legt uit dat het OM het verloop niet ziet als afgang, maar geheel gelukkig zal het opsporingsapparaat er niet mee zijn. Tot slot, natuurlijk dient de rechterlijke macht en dus ook het OM onafhankelijk zijn werk te doen – dat is zelfs een absolute voorwaarde – maar justitie kan zich niet isoleren van de maatschappelijke werkelijkheid.
http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37898.php

Translation:

No 'disaster' for Aruba


THE ONUITGESPROKEN idea behind the editorial of the Amigoe of Wednesday, December 12 on the actions of the PPS in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway is that the judicial clarification of a serious criminal offence should depend on the publicity damage caused by that action Aruba would be affected. The constitution of Aruba momentum a wiser course here is recommended, by the PPS largely independently. We in the PPS do not live in isolation or in an ivory tower, but not bend or not georchestreerd mediageweld, especially when we consider the key hands to the elucidation of a dramatic event. Moreover, even the question which Aruba eventually suffer more damage: a possible accusation not everything done what is a possibility belonged to resolve, or by the finding that the PPS that indeed get to the bottom of his toolbox is gone?
Another noteworthy point is the different language that journalists and lawyers speak. When the Amigoe about a 'failure' of the PPS in the Natalee Holloway case, it appears that the editors to refer to a type of sports, where one of the parties by a lack of fitness or skill loses the race. This is a picture of a criminal such as by the American television be created: Public Prosecutor versus defender and each has its own version of the truth behind the accusation, with a passive jury that the winner designates. That image does not reflect the reality of the Aruban criminal proceedings, in which the judge himself is looking for the truth and this material also finds, and for which the police and the building blocks for delivering.
That the Prosecutor and the court believes may differ on whether the proof of the accusation is ultimately delivered means no 'disaster' for the PPS. If the court is always the discretion of the PPS would follow, the court again precisely the accusation that he is merely a stempelaar ( "rubber stamp") of the demands of the PPS. Even if the outcome of criminal proceedings for the PPS is not completely sure, the case for a dare to apply. Thus, the law on money laundering ultimately a direction that the PPS previously held just before, but where oprostilnim fell. The need for an acquittal or dismissal of legal proceedings in the interest of the truth or the law dare risk
Finally. It is despite all our information to the editors apparently unaware that the OM only when new facts one must apply coercion that has already been applied. The headline of a press release stating that the PPS as a second male suspect continues, can be replaced by definition no different than on the basis of new facts.
The judge in the Holloway case, in all three cases the new action by the PPS has tested, apparently - with the OM - believes that these new facts were indeed there, otherwise he had the application of coercive measures not allowed. Of the subsequent interrogations eventually would yield sufficient data for continuation of liberty, should be awaited. The Court, and in the wake of it, the court commissioner, was that the serious reservations which are necessary not present. So be it: judges are finally for considering and deciding between opsporingsbelang and vrijheidsbelang.
That in the period of new liberty suspects not only response when they come with the new facts were faced, but the total silence have done is their right, but not the conclusion that legitimises the PPS that confrontation with the new Then, just facts failure should have been let by the defendants do not re-arrest. Volunteer wanted the suspects not to the police. After their previous release the suspects had declared that they would ever even have to tell what really happened. We are - and many of us - are curious about.
Would it have been different if the vergeeflijk OM - by long and accurate rechercheren came in possession of new inconsistencies with respect to previous, though not beating, statements - the key in the lock had not put in the lock had not trying to mobilise? And the only thing on his course had left under the motto: sorry for the parents of Natalee, but good for Aruba?
N. JÖRG
(Acting Attorney General)
Aruba
Naschrift editors:
No time, the Amigoe stated that the case for the Holloway "on his course was supposed to be." It is therefore incorrect, the Acting PG, Mr. Jörg, but also in order to suggest that direction. Even this newspaper has not written that justice Aruba on the three suspects' had no need to re-arrest ". The criticism in the comments concerned the hoofdredactioneel pretentious press statement last month that the OM according to Amigoe unnecessary risks has walked. "First of all, with regard to his own reputation by the disaster in this matter is not good. But also with regard to the danger that the island again shamed internationally to be pilloried, especially in the country where most tourists come from. "PG Mr Jörg explains that the PPS progress does not see as a disaster, but fortunately whole criminal will not agree. Finally, of course, the judiciary and therefore the PPS independent work to be done - this is even an absolute prerequisite - but justice can not isolate themselves from social reality.
http://Http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_37898.php

We need a complete translation of this.

[AZSunny]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

Not saying that they didn't like each other, they just may not have had much time for each other if that makes sense.

Even if they didn't and I am not saying that they didn't, I am saying that regardless she shouldn't be hanging out with those that only serve to cover up what happened.  I am probably not as nice as the rest of y'all... not when it comes to this.

You are so right Mrs. Red.  You may have missed what I wrote several weeks ago.  I am in total agreement with you on this.  I have no idea what Robin's motive is, but it comes across as pure jealousy in my book. 

[memphis]

As for Robin, it doesn't matter if she only saw Natalee twice in her life - you don't cozy up to the very people that helped cover up the murder of your stepdaughter.  Doesn't that disrespect your husband?  Also, I don't believe for one second that Beth would behave this way about any of Robin's kids, who aren't even related to her.  If Robin doesn't care and wants her life to go on like nothing happened, she should stop "lying down with dogs and getting fleas" so to speak... JMHO..

Not just disrespect, but can he even trust her? Will she run and post any information gleaned on one of those crazy sites? Regardless of what her motivaton is (and I do have an opinion on that), it is just totally unwise and reckless.

[Angiex911dsptchr]

Hi Monkeys.  I gather there's no news yet from the search as it hasn't begun.  Angie, hope you feel better soon.  I've had that and it's the sickest I've ever been.  Take care of yourself.  What's going on tonight?

 Hi AZ.. Thank you    Been trying to catch up myself here...  Boat  made it.. and my prayers go out to them all.

Food poisoning is the worst I hear!
I wish you a speedy recovery.

I have had food poisoning twice ... so Ang honey, I feel awful for you... once the toxic junk leaves your system you will feel so much better... eat a lot of blueberries, they put some of what the illness takes out back in.. (in a good way) and they help quell the stomach illness...

Klass and CBB... hoping you guys are better too... 

SOrry for off topic...

  Thank you.. I actually like bluberrys and if it helps.. I will buy some. I already called off for work tomorrow.  

[Dihannah1]

Maybe Robin and Natalee didn't have much of a relationship considering that they lived in separate houses, different towns, Robin with her kids, and Natalee growing up and wanting to be with her friends.

Regardless, you'd think she would be loyal to Dave and his cause.  Bashing his ex and daughter is not in HIS best interest or of the case!  I would like to know if Dave is aware of what she is doing?  In my mind she's not helping him at all!  Sad and scary.  I don't care what she feels towards Beth,  She is married to the father of the girl missing!  What a betrayal!