Lively Case Discussion #514 8/19 - 8/21/2006

[klaasend]

Yes she did.

Well, what did she say?  Did you ask her out??  ha ha

[Lala'sMom]

Why is it so important to establish who was driving and who was seated where? Why would this be something to lie about?

Would it have to do with premeditation? The driver is the "leader," he can say yea/or nay.

Are you referring to the game? Did the ALE know about the 20+ times and how it worked?

Someone in ALE knew all about this 20+ times.  Someone with a dirty hand...oops!  Sorry.  

[SunFreak2]

Reading the J2K statements reminded me that one of the MB kids reported seeing J2K in Deepak's car during the evening before C&Cs.  (I've looked for this statement but haven't found it yet.)  I also remember Nadira's first interview with Greta saying that Joran called Deepak because he needed a lift; Satish went to pick up Deepak and then they went to pick up Joran.  This is very different from the other statements that they all went home, did homework, cleaned the car, ate dinner.  I'm thinking that Satish was driving because he picked up Deepak, then they picked up Joran and maybe went somewhere, did something, they don't want anyone to know between 10:00 pm and 12:30 am.  So they changed the story and Paulus didn't hear Deepak's loud car at midnight because he wasn't even there.

Waving hi back to LilPuma!

Very interesting point.  If we can believe that Joran was picked up by his Father at 11pm at McDonalds, then the missing time would be shorter.  But it would be enough time to go cop some drugs for the evening.  

[the big hammer]

So Who Drives to C&C, And who Sits Where?

Lala'sMom writes: "These 3 statements are very interesting. Since there was a great deal of pressure on the Kalpoes by this time, I think there is more truth in their statements than Joran's. Who was driving the car? Where was Joran riding in the car? Why are these 3 so confused about these simple details...there is a reason. This should be cut and dried here. So and so drove and parked the car. So and so was in the front passenger seat. Very telling."

This is a great post and a critical observation and point.  All statements reporting the 3's arrival sequence to C&C sgould be reviewed w/ fine-tooth comb, including who picked up who, when and where.

The statements reporting who drove who to C&C all vary, significantly, citing different drivers and different seating within same car.  In fact, has it even been firmly established via corroborated testimony or other statement that all 3 arrived at C&C in same car, at same time?  Other than these three saying so, I don't believe it has.

Note deepak statement as cited here by Lala's and again note sequencing: Deepak puts Satish w/ car keys (as Satish is driver), so that deepak can say later he sat on ground waiting for jvds, satish, natalee to come out.  By calling satish in bar (missed call), satish comes out and gives deepak keys and staish walks back into to get jvds/Natalee.

Think about that.

deepak pulls satish away from critical action going on in bar: note NEITHER KALPOE will state they were there for shot drinking by jvds and Natalee, neither of them ACTUALLY WITNESS THIS EVENT, even though they refer to knowing that it happened.

It was at this point, almost surely, that Natalee was slipped a drug in a drink.  I also think quite possible that satish carried and potentially administered the drug.

[sharon]

Bearlyhere & SunnyinTX --

sorry for not answering. I've been in cut & paster mode -- and now I need to take care of the family stuff for a bit.

Klaas posted an old forum post where WW brought over a post from another 'friend' or on another forum. Someone saying she knew Nat and had been on the trip (I think) -- and that Nat had runaway before.

I think I have saved it -- it will have to wait awhile -- unless the galactic zookeeper can whip it out faster

Net net -- it was a lie and it was the beginning of the 'Natalee ran away' rumor

I think she even through in the haricut and dye job

________

[Kat_Gram]

Why is it so important to establish who was driving and who was seated where? Why would this be something to lie about?

It isn't really...just goes to the fact that they all knew more than they were willing to tell.  On the other hand, how could you not know who was driving the car?  Only one person can do that at a time...unless they stopped and switched drivers at some point before they got there.  Such as the Nadira tale of Satish picked up Deepak and then they picked up Joran.  I know this is confusing, but that is why I brought it up.  Who's story has the most truth in it?  What do you guys think?

I think they all all lying.
Deepak, if he was driving after C & C's is culpable. He's a grown up and if Joran wants to do something horrible and criminal, well Deepak could have tossed him out of the car. But then, Deepak isn't a man, he is a little boy looking for acceptance by the others and would go along with anything to get some status and acceptance from the group Joran belongs to. That's my take on him and Satish. And the Kalpoes too. They were also taken in by Paulus's status as a judge ( failed ). But before that, he held a high position in the government.
June 4 Saturday, they ALL went to a lawyer.
They weren' t told to tell the truth as we were led to believe, but to stick with the orginal story of the HI drop off.

[memphis]

About the money...gambling, money laundering, drugs, spending money, payoffs, gambling...Joran has a side job that paid very well up this point.  There is money going or coming from somewhere or else he couldn't get away with just the small things like...gambling, drinking, etc.

agreed

[memphis]

Yes she did.

Well, what did she say?  Did you ask her out??  ha ha

   Do tell.

[Lala'sMom]

Hello Hammer!
 I am honored that you are talking about my thoughts.  I have been racking my brain over these small details that seem to tell me so much about that night.  There is more truth in what is NOT said than what IS said.

[memphis]

Why is it so important to establish who was driving and who was seated where? Why would this be something to lie about?

Would it have to do with premeditation? The driver is the "leader," he can say yea/or nay.

Are you referring to the game? Did the ALE know about the 20+ times and how it worked?

Someone in ALE knew all about this 20+ times.  Someone with a dirty hand...oops!  Sorry.  

OK, as a side note, in your mind, is Dirty Hand VDS?

[memphis]

Reading the J2K statements reminded me that one of the MB kids reported seeing J2K in Deepak's car during the evening before C&Cs.  (I've looked for this statement but haven't found it yet.)  I also remember Nadira's first interview with Greta saying that Joran called Deepak because he needed a lift; Satish went to pick up Deepak and then they went to pick up Joran.  This is very different from the other statements that they all went home, did homework, cleaned the car, ate dinner.  I'm thinking that Satish was driving because he picked up Deepak, then they picked up Joran and maybe went somewhere, did something, they don't want anyone to know between 10:00 pm and 12:30 am.  So they changed the story and Paulus didn't hear Deepak's loud car at midnight because he wasn't even there.

Waving hi back to LilPuma!

Very interesting point.  If we can believe that Joran was picked up by his Father at 11pm at McDonalds, then the missing time would be shorter.  But it would be enough time to go cop some drugs for the evening.  

Whoa!  
So it's very important for them to cover that time.
And didn't PVS originally say he picked sonny up at 4am? Wasn't this said in the beginning, clearly, and then he suddenly changed it to 11p?

[Easywriter]

In the ghetto

[klaasend]

In the ghetto

Spit it out Easy, what did she say?  

[Kat_Gram]

here is a link to dana's schedule for tomorrow.
http://st106.startlogic.com/~cbandtal/guests.htm
Jessica's Law and Clint van Zandt.
I really like Dana's show. Not sure if I will be able to listen live,
but there is always the pod cast.
Dana has been a great friend to this case.

[Lala'sMom]

Katgram
My belief is that Deepak does what he does with Joran, not because he wants to but because he HAS to.  Deepak and Satish are hiding something in their past and Joran knows all about it.  So does Poppa Sloot.

[sharon]

Someone in ALE knew all about this 20+ times.  Someone with a dirty hand...oops!  Sorry.  

Gosh Lala'sMom -- you're on and I need to run

I saw a Shango post today -- (paraphrase) many Arawaks have dirtyhands.

All one word (if you've noticed, he writes it several different ways and I think they have different meanings).

I think that refers to the group of Arubans who are 'on the take'. This is in the area recently posted about -- 'the father can sing any song'....

And the posts about the driving -- Great! I could have sworn the driver to C&C changed between a few statements, but I never went back to confirm.

It's almost as if it didn't happen that way at all

Or what's the difference if Satish or Deepak drove?

(sorry for this drive by -- I will read what I miss before I post again)

[Lala'sMom]

Memphis
Everyone thinks Dirty Hand is van der Straaten...even was alluded to in the Shango posts.  I however, do not think that, yet.  I think dirty hand is a reference to those in the know and those with the power.  Kind of like a catch-all phrase for several people, each with a specific task to do, but lumped together to describe an over all theme.  Okay, I know I digressed again...sorry.

[Ono]

I still think that more than being Joran's social friends, the Kalpoe brothers were the hired help, working to make extra money by driving, etc. Joran,etc. on these escapades which involved American tourist girls on their last night in Aruba.  It's like a mini-mob group.

[Ono]

Katgram
My belief is that Deepak does what he does with Joran, not because he wants to but because he HAS to.  Deepak and Satish are hiding something in their past and Joran knows all about it.  So does Poppa Sloot.

Maybe that's why the Kalpoes were hired for these driving, etc. jobs.  They "couldn't refuse"...

[klaasend]

I still think that more than being Joran's social friends, the Kalpoe brothers were the hired help, working to make extra money by driving, etc. Joran,etc. on these escapades which involved American tourist girls on their last night in Aruba.  It's like a mini-mob group.

I disagree.  Satish was friends with Koen and probably went to school with Koen.  Koen introduced Satish and Deepak to Joran.  Satish is seen with Joran, Freddy and the girl partying at Joran's house when he was released in September.  Deepak is the "third man out".  He owns the vehicle and may be the driver in most cases.  Satish is a friend.