Natalee Case Discussion #708 12/28 - 12/30/07

[Dayhiker]

I understand. I never understand why some where hoping in the Dutch investigator for solved this case.
Also the FBI in NYC knows this case can not be solved by the Dutch investigators. They really get information about the Dutch government. BTW, who is Peter deWitt? Do u not mean Peter R. de Vries?
And well do u know, I am anti Dutch government for around 8 years. I know how they work, I know how inhumanly they are, I know they are corrupt and I know they give wrong/false information to parents of missing children. At this moment the police in the Netherlands has a named for bad, corrupt and liars.

Sorry NYC, I meant de Vries! IMO this whole case goes to all the way to the Netherlands. The Dutch judiciary in Holland  should have recognized the conflicts of interest with Paulus and all the judges, hell he knew them all and was under their employ as a judge-in-training, and sent an unbiased team to Aruba or Curacao. They sat back on the asses while the judges went apeshit helping the van der Sloots cover up their crime.

Much of this has to do with the opaque shield Dutch judges can hide behind. There is no transparency. They answer to nobody, not even the public who pays them.

[Spock]

I never (ever) saw this statement attributed to Rudy Croes before. I have to ask do we have the original source?

Aruban Authorities Investigate Blood in Car
Sunday, June 12, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama honors student Natalee Holloway were seeking clues on the source of blood found in the car used to transport the missing teen to the beach nearly two weeks ago, Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes (search) said.

"We have found some blood in the car, but we don't know to whom it belongs," he said.

[Anna]

NYC,

Can you help me here a little bit with a question?

It is my understanding that Mos is what is known as a Public Prosecutor.  Meaning he can only prosecute members of the public and not ALE nor judges, etc.

Do I understand that correctly?  The ALE investigation would have to originate within their own ranks and through the equivalent of their union or hierarchy?

TIA

.

[Observer]

Well If Judge Bob Wit just said in the paper that the warrant only requested to search Joran's APT and the 2 cars then someone is lying there ass off and I think it's him.

Someone needs to speak up quickly,because the dirtbag that changed that warrant should be in jail. I believe Peter De Vries 100% but if for some reason the fault lied on the OM,AG and Jaren Janssen then someone needs to speak up right now. We know 7 days later PVDS was arrested for suspicion of murder and kidnapping but yet they never searched anything of his on the property.

It is absolutely unnaceptable and they are caught Red Handed Covering Up Natalee's Murder and Protecting the Van Der Sloots. Since when do Murder,Kidnapping and Rape suspects get immunity from having there entire property searched?

Natalee was absolutely in that main house and in back of the property by the garden. Bet it all

[Anna]

Rammstein does a pretty good job of defending the judges but it is all based on his claim that they are infallible.  There is only one infallible human being and he only in matters of faith.

No human being is above even the possibility of corruption.  That is why in this country we have an OPEN court system, no hiding behind black robes and claims of secrecy being legal. 

I appreciate our own system more and more every day.  It's far from perfect but the appearance of wrong-doing is not tolerated.

Karin Janssen said Paulus wouldn't let them search in one of her rare interviews and I have always thought this was a slip of the tongue for her.  I have always felt for whatever reasons, PVDS was running this investigation from the start.  He seemed to be calling the shots and making all the decisions and how odd he was screaming about jurisdiction to Beth and the people from Alabama the minute they arrived.

.

[Observer]

I never (ever) saw this statement attributed to Rudy Croes before. I have to ask do we have the original source?

Aruban Authorities Investigate Blood in Car
Sunday, June 12, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama honors student Natalee Holloway were seeking clues on the source of blood found in the car used to transport the missing teen to the beach nearly two weeks ago, Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes (search) said.

"We have found some blood in the car, but we don't know to whom it belongs," he said.

I found it last night on that Dutch Blog. I cant remember if I translated it or it was in English but it's from a newspaper. The site seems to be down at the moment for all the sleuths it is worth looking into. I was suprised to see Jorans friend and a HI Casino worker commenting on the forum.

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/710730/3/50


http://forum.fok.nl/topic/837319/1/25
(Go Here to see the list of there discussions on NH)

[bleachedblack]

Sorry Spock still looking for the article/source of that info. But found this interesting line from Ruben Trapenberg. After we heard numerous accounts by FBI and others that allegedly blood was found in the car only to have it turn into chocolate and cleaning fluid.......apparently Rubin knew from from the start that whatever the others were seeing WAS NOT BLOOD. Humpffff

Ruben Trapenberg, a government spokesman, said authorities found no blood in the car that Holloway was riding in with the three young men. "There is no evidence of foul play that we know of."

http://tinyurl.com/36cahd

[NYC_lover]

Sorry NYC, I meant de Vries! IMO this whole case goes to all the way to the Netherlands. The Dutch judiciary in Holland  should have recognized the conflicts of interest with Paulus and all the judges, hell he knew them all and was under their employ as a judge-in-training, and sent an unbiased team to Aruba or Curacao. They sat back on the asses while the judges went apeshit helping the van der Sloots cover up their crime.

Much of this has to do with the opaque shield Dutch judges can hide behind. There is no transparency. They answer to nobody, not even the public who pays them.

Dayhiker - No problem, I know about who are u talking. 
This a good article for reading. And sure in the red. The corruption is with great eye to see.
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2470.msg321949#msg321949

[Tylergal]

Rammstein does a pretty good job of defending the judges but it is all based on his claim that they are infallible.  There is only one infallible human being and he only in matters of faith.

No human being is above even the possibility of corruption.  That is why in this country we have an OPEN court system, no hiding behind black robes and claims of secrecy being legal. 

I appreciate our own system more and more every day.  It's far from perfect but the appearance of wrong-doing is not tolerated.

Karin Janssen said Paulus wouldn't let them search in one of her rare interviews and I have always thought this was a slip of the tongue for her.  I have always felt for whatever reasons, PVDS was running this investigation from the start.  He seemed to be calling the shots and making all the decisions and how odd he was screaming about jurisdiction to Beth and the people from Alabama the minute they arrived.

.

However, we do have NOI who know how to disrupt and corrupt and threaten jurors, and we have the Nifongs who can easily be ferreted out.

[Observer]

Anna,

Ramm can spin it all he likes and blame the ALE and Arubans. I will be on the FP later top see what he saying. They are caught red handed this time since Wit is saying that is all the search requested was Jorans little Apt and the 2 cars. I am quite sure the Judge is lying according to what De Vries told us.

Someone needs to take the blame as what they did was absolutely absurd and it killed any chance of finding evidence in that house. It's not a winning argument for that side,and they are caught.

[NYC_lover]

Sorry Spock still looking for the article/source of that info. But found this interesting line from Ruben Trapenberg. After we heard numerous accounts by FBI and others that allegedly blood was found in the car only to have it turn into chocolate and cleaning fluid.......apparently Rubin knew from from the start that whatever the others were seeing WAS NOT BLOOD. Humpffff

Ruben Trapenberg, a government spokesman, said authorities found no blood in the car that Holloway was riding in with the three young men. "There is no evidence of foul play that we know of."

http://tinyurl.com/36cahd

Well, when blood is longer then 1 day old. It can begin to look like brown. It all this to make with how quickly it becomes brown with the temperature. And itself is blood to see under the floor in concrete.

[Anna]

I never (ever) saw this statement attributed to Rudy Croes before. I have to ask do we have the original source?

Aruban Authorities Investigate Blood in Car
Sunday, June 12, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama honors student Natalee Holloway were seeking clues on the source of blood found in the car used to transport the missing teen to the beach nearly two weeks ago, Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes (search) said.

"We have found some blood in the car, but we don't know to whom it belongs," he said.

Spock,

I remember both Croes and Oduber saying this, one of them live on media right in front of Beth who had NOT yet heard this.  Oduber, I think that was.

That resulted in that most anguished of photos of her and the one from which many of us draw inspiration to this day, where she is walking away just devastated in tears and some guy trying to comfort her.

That man actually announced this to the media in this press conference right in front of Beth without having the decency to even warn the mother of the missing child in advance what he was going to say.

Things like that are why I am still here, the level of sheer cruelty that was totally unnecessary that they have shown. 

And we now know Rudy Croes has his $65 million project on the line.  Be a shame to build all those units and have no customers for him, wouldn't it?  Sort of like the new cruise dock they built on credit and now 44% decline in cruise ship activity. 

Someone gets to those who try to do a real investigation.  Dompig started off really trying as I believe did Mos.  Do they sit them down and show them the government books and how this is going to wreck the total economy or what?

.

[bleachedblack]

Sorry Spock still looking for the article/source of that info. But found this interesting line from Ruben Trapenberg. After we heard numerous accounts by FBI and others that allegedly blood was found in the car only to have it turn into chocolate and cleaning fluid.......apparently Rubin knew from from the start that whatever the others were seeing WAS NOT BLOOD. Humpffff

Ruben Trapenberg, a government spokesman, said authorities found no blood in the car that Holloway was riding in with the three young men. "There is no evidence of foul play that we know of."

http://tinyurl.com/36cahd

Well, when blood is longer then 1 day old. It can begin to look like brown. It all this to make with how quickly it becomes brown with the temperature. And itself is blood to see under the floor in concrete.

Dried blood in a car will of course turn brown, as does dry blood on most anything. It was the very confident misinformation by Ruben stating there WAS NO BLOOD found that I wanted to point out.

[Anna]

Sorry Spock still looking for the article/source of that info. But found this interesting line from Ruben Trapenberg. After we heard numerous accounts by FBI and others that allegedly blood was found in the car only to have it turn into chocolate and cleaning fluid.......apparently Rubin knew from from the start that whatever the others were seeing WAS NOT BLOOD. Humpffff

Ruben Trapenberg, a government spokesman, said authorities found no blood in the car that Holloway was riding in with the three young men. "There is no evidence of foul play that we know of."

http://tinyurl.com/36cahd

Why send anything to NFI or FBI when they have Ruben on the scene to do instant analysis?  He can probably see DNA as well.  Very remarkable talents this man claims to have.

Everyone else saw the blood and said so.

.

[Observer]

FoxNews

    quote:
    Aruban Authorities Investigate Blood in Car
    Sunday, June 12, 2005

    ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama honors student Natalee Holloway were seeking clues on the source of blood found in the car used to transport the missing teen to the beach nearly two weeks ago, Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes (search) said.

    "We have found some blood in the car, but we don't know to whom it belongs," he said.

    The teen's mother, Beth Holloway Twitty, reportedly gave blood to authorities to determine whether the DNA matched that of the samples taken from a silver Honda.

    Forensic expert Michael Baden told FOX News on Sunday, "Everyday that passes makes it more ominous,” in referring to the amount of time that has passed since the woman went missing. He added that "the blood in the car could be due to a struggle" and also said of Aruban authorities: "There’s a great pressure not to convict local people.”

    An Aruban judge Saturday ordered the three young men who reportedly spent time with Holloway at a lighthouse on an Aruban beach before she disappeared to stay in jail, as Aruba's attorney general and others denied reports that one had confessed and said he would take police to the body.

    As rumors mounted about the fate of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, a spokeswoman for her family, Carla Caccavale, told The Associated Press: "The family confirms that a body has not been found."
Posted by Milagro

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/710730/3/50

[Anna]

I have seen dried blood stay red in certain conditions.  But seasoned FBI agents and members of LE know what it looks like, red or brown, from all the car wrecks in Aruba and not even those clowns would be likely to mistake chocolate for blood or anything else for that matter.

I would like to hear from an FBI agent who actually physically saw it as to the quantity.

They love to sing that song about no evidence of violence.

Well, they why make the body disappear?  That doesn't make any sense at all and no amount of panic would last long enough to carry out that action.

They hid the body for one of two reasons only and both involve violence.

.

[NYC_lover]

NYC,

Can you help me here a little bit with a question?

It is my understanding that Mos is what is known as a Public Prosecutor.  Meaning he can only prosecute members of the public and not ALE nor judges, etc.

Do I understand that correctly?  The ALE investigation would have to originate within their own ranks and through the equivalent of their union or hierarchy?

TIA

Anna - sure u can ask what u want, because I don't have right the silent about this government and police rapports.
Hmhm very interesting question, at this moment I don't not sure the answer of your question. I don't think it is possible to get a court case to a judge and a public prosecutor. But I want ask my father tomorrow about it, he has some law articles studied, maybe he knows. 'The ALE investigation would have to originate within their own ranks and through the equivalent of their union or hierarchy'? I think his is right. Such as everyone them or her rank has by the law system and police office.

[Observer]

Mos Says Part II
Dutch press     by Hannie   RU

PUBLISHED 27-12-07:
Regarding the review the KLPD did in the case, he said: "As an investigating team and as prosecutor in charge, we must be open to other possibilities and must be careful not to exclude other options."

He was not present early on in the investigation, he does not know the points and arguments used to balance the investigation and also does not know the circumstances, but denied that the team had tunnel vision: "But my impression is that during that period there was no sign of tunnel vision, the team saw that there were several scenarios possible and they investigated them out."

He criticized the overexposure of the story in the media, specially the sensationalists and tabloids, who when they had no information, would look for their own information; many times sidetracking the real investigators.

"Aruba is a safe place, it's not a place where there is relatively high crime activity, furthermore, the Aruban Police has a impeccable record in solving big crimes."

When asked why couldn't they solve this case then, he replied "I don't know, but one thing for sure, I would not like to be in the shoes of the persons in charge of the investigation early on, not as a police officer or as a member of the Prosecutor's Office. It's now easier to talk about."

PUBLISHED 28-12-07:

Mos answered: "I was not responsable for that, and it's not up to me to give an evaluation. But I can say that all decisions taken back then, were taken with integrity..." to the question, what his opinion was on the attack of the family that it took too long to arrest the former suspects in the case.

About his comments of errors made by the investigative team early on that was printed in a Dutch newspaper, he admitted that he talked to the newpapers de Telegraaf which is known for its sensationalism, but he denies that he said those words. "There were some things in the article that I never said, the only thing I said and confirmed to them was that there were some results not put on paper (PV), that we thought could had given us more information. So, that's why we went back and relistened to all recorded telephone conversations of the previous investigation. And based on that, we got some more things out."

He did not want to give more information but explained that there are some psychological processes that an investigating team can go through when handling too much information. He used the popular expression: "..door de bomen de bos niet meer zien."

It is a fact that some of the MB kids were interviewed, but the process was handled by the lawyers in the States. The FBI intervened to interview a selected group BUT the questions were controlled and had to have approval of the lawyers.

Once again, Mos said that he had no responsability in that and he has not enough information how that process went. "The only thing I can say, and it's a professional opinion after the fact, is that everything should have been investigated and all options eliminated." He continue saying that even if these options were not understood by others or no one agrees with them.

He believes that the investigation should be broadened in the States because "I can conclude that this was not done", but at this moment he does not think that the answers would be there.

Mos confirmed that the island of Aruba and the Netherlands has spent between $5-$10 million dollars on the case, and that is excluding the salary costs. A small group of investigators are still assigned to the case, under the command of Dolphi Richardson to filter any new information that could come in the future.

He finished the interview with these words about the investigators: "We cannot say who and what was done, but I can say that the investigators in this case are so involved with it that even in their free time want to review the whole investigation. Even now that the case is cold, they are willing to keep it alive"
Back to top 

[Anna]

I have seen dried blood stay red in certain conditions.  But seasoned FBI agents and members of LE know what it looks like, red or brown, from all the car wrecks in Aruba and not even those clowns would be likely to mistake chocolate for blood or anything else for that matter.

I would like to hear from an FBI agent who actually physically saw it as to the quantity.

They love to sing that song about no evidence of violence.

Well, they why make the body disappear?  That doesn't make any sense at all and no amount of panic would last long enough to carry out that action.

They hid the body for one of two reasons only and both involve violence.

.

So I don't think MOS can investigate the corruption.  That has to be done by someone higher ranking than he is for the judiciary and also from within the LE itself.

He is not authorized to do so is my understanding.


Ramm doesn't like me.  He told me so in PM.  I don't know why.  I may not agree with him but I was ALWAYS very civil in my exchanges with him.  And I didn't even point out how other things he claims are not true, either, like the ability of pedophiles in The Netherlands to be working with children.  They recently arrested one molesting young boys whom he was TEACHING sailing lessons.  Ramm said it was impossible for them to have contact with children which was obviously just wrong.  Imagine how much he would hate me if I had even talked about that which I didn't.  Yet.

.

[klaasend]

I never (ever) saw this statement attributed to Rudy Croes before. I have to ask do we have the original source?

Aruban Authorities Investigate Blood in Car
Sunday, June 12, 2005

ORANJESTAD, Aruba — Authorities investigating the disappearance of Alabama honors student Natalee Holloway were seeking clues on the source of blood found in the car used to transport the missing teen to the beach nearly two weeks ago, Aruban Justice Minister Rudy Croes (search) said.

"We have found some blood in the car, but we don't know to whom it belongs," he said.

Per the front page of SM.  Looks like there was a FOX article on this June 12th but when you go to the link the article is different:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2005/06/12/natalee-holloway-latest-news/

(scroll down to the bottom of the post)


Now..back to working and lurking