Natalee Case Discussion #708 12/28 - 12/30/07

[Tamikosmom]

Can someone answer this question please? What time its in SD right now? Thank you so much!

SD = San Diego or South Dakota? (lot's of other choices but those two came to mind  )

San Diego is 8:16pm

South Dakota is 10:16pm

... and 8:24 PM in British Columbia, Canada.

Video night with friends ... they are picking out the video as we speak and ... I am serving the coffee and dessert.  It is a Safeway bakery special ... my hubby's choice.  I have not open the box ... so it will be a surprise for me.   

Good Night Monkeys.

Janet

[mrs. red]

Nite Janet...

[Helen Back]

One thing that has always made me think Lorenzo was involved somehow is that his family owns an import export business, I'm assuming somewhere near the port, or the container port.  Sorry, I can't find that info and address at the moment.

In one of Deepak's statements regarding the evening of Natalee's disapperance, he mentions that they drove past the container port.  I thought that an odd thing to mention unless they were afraid they had been spotted in the area.

Just my own thoughtprint sticking with me, I guess.  But since Hodges talks about the significance of a container regarding Deepak's statements about Nat, I always thought about other containers.  If you wanted to move someone around without being noticed, containerizing them in a crate or other shipping device would certainly be effective.  Crates and containers everywhere, sort of in plain view, yes?

Helen, it was Joran who mentioned the container harbor in his 6-9-2005 POV

<snip>
I have to say that while we were driving past the front of the container harbour, Natalee told me that her mother was the sister of "Hitler".

Thanks, yapperz.   No wonder I couldn't find it!     Always thought that an odd detail to include.

[NYC_lover]

Can someone answer this question please? What time its in SD right now? Thank you so much!

SD = San Diego or South Dakota? (lot's of other choices but those two came to mind  )

San Diego is 8:16pm

South Dakota is 10:16pm

... and 8:24 PM in British Columbia, Canada.

Video night with friends ... they are picking out the video as we speak and ... I am serving the coffee and dessert.  It is a Safeway bakery special ... my hubby's choice.  I have not open the box ... so it will be a surprise for me.   

Good Night Monkeys.

Janet

Thanks Janet. Good to know when I ever want traveling to British Columbia.

I have to go to sleeping. Dreams sweet. Good Night all!

[Helen Back]

One thing that has always made me think Lorenzo was involved somehow is that his family owns an import export business, I'm assuming somewhere near the port, or the container port.  Sorry, I can't find that info and address at the moment.

In one of Deepak's statements regarding the evening of Natalee's disapperance, he mentions that they drove past the container port.  I thought that an odd thing to mention unless they were afraid they had been spotted in the area.

Just my own thoughtprint sticking with me, I guess.  But since Hodges talks about the significance of a container regarding Deepak's statements about Nat, I always thought about other containers.  If you wanted to move someone around without being noticed, containerizing them in a crate or other shipping device would certainly be effective.  Crates and containers everywhere, sort of in plain view, yes?

What a clever way to hide the drugs...as in heroin and cocaine and others.  Just like in the movies. What kind of things did they export? Do you know?

I have no idea.  What natural resources does Aruba have to export?  Drugs and hand cream?

What could they import?  Drugs and everything else?

[Tamikosmom]

In the Natalee Holloway case ... other than the security guards ... there were only seven formal suspects ... seven formal suspects who were held in pre-trial detainment. All the rest were considered witnesses who were brought in for questioning and immediately released ... Freddy and Lorenzo included.

1. Joran
2.  Deepak
3.  Satish
4.  Steve Croes
5.  Paulus
6.  Geoffrey van Cromvoirt (GVC)
7.  Guido Wever

Janet

+++++++++++++++

Joran, Deepak, Satish, Steve Croes and Paulus
FOX NEWS
June 24, 2005

Joran van der Sloot (search) and his friends Deepak and Satish Kalpoe are being held under suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

A fourth man, party boat DJ Steve Croes, is being held under the same conditions.

The fifth man, Paul van der Sloot (search) — the father of 17-year-old Joran — was being held on suspicion of complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping. Under the Aruban system, complicity is a lesser charge.


Geoffrey van Cromvoirt (GVC)
ABC NEWS
April 24, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt, 19, has been released into the custody of his parents after spending more than a week in an Aruba jail on suspicion of "criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.


Guildo Wever
FOX NEWS
May 22, 2006

Guido Wever, an Aruba national, is expected to face charges Tuesday in a Dutch courtroom connection with the disappearance of the high school senior. Wever's lawyer, Gerard Spong was expected to file a suit Monday to prevent his extradition to the Caribbean island on charges of "assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen


Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005

ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion.
 

Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

Janet,
I was just about to post the same Fox news blurb.  # 5: Natalee met Paulus in the casino.

Helen ... note the date that Beth conveyed the following words.  They were spoken months prior to the leak of the casino video.  Beth knows the truth pertaining to the identity of the man in the video conversing with her daughter.

Janet

+++++++++++++


Beth Holloway Twitty
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
September 19, 2005

HOLLOWAY TWITTY: ... I don‘t think there was ever a question that Joran and Paulus Van Der Sloot had been in that Excelsior Casino, and, particularly, on the night of the 29th where he and his father met Natalee.


Katherine (Madison) Whatley
FBI Statement
July 12, 2005
 
After swimming at the hotel on Sunday, WHATLEY and other classmates, including HOLLOWAY, ate dinner at a restaurant next to the hotel. After dinner they went to the casino at the hotel. A few classmates were gambling at a card table along with an "older man" and YURON VAN DER SLOOT. (Whatley 302)

[klaasend]

Nite Janet

[Observer]

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
---------------
No idea who else this could be from everyone we know in this case. The only BF I can possibly think of earlier in the week would be GVC. Rubbing against her while dancing at C&C or possibly being the one in a uniform that was seen talking to her. The person was described as being a local man in his 20's,too old to be GVC.

I don't see Joran being scared shi*less of any of the pimps or witnesses we have talked about in this case. Unless it's Andre Meneses or someone else who's name is not in the case files and is some type of Colombian Drug lord or dangerous person that somehow is the 5th suspect.

What about Lorenzo? He fits the description. But what is his motive? 
I have never seen what his motive could have been.  Simian says jealousy, but who could be that jealous after one encounter?  Of course they are all nuts.

I was trying to think out of the Lorenzo box  I don't buy the jealousy thing at all and I think they embelished the BF thing from earlier in the week. Probably was just a chance encounter. We know Boostunit.com(Aruban site) had a thread up about Natalee's lunch with Lorenzo or whatever. Who's going to get jealous over a unconscious girl?  I think he probably helped out Joran and the Van Der Sloots and is a witness. I doubt he shot Natalee,Beat her or gave her a fatal dose. I think Natalee left her marks on Joran and Guido for everyone to see and I do not think they received bruises and scratches from burying her body.

Jossy told us Lorenzo and Joran were very close and he said he confirmed that they were brothers. I dont think he was scared of Lorenzo one bit. The only motive here was drugging her for some type of sexual deviance like rape or filming a video or they were paid so someone else so they could rape Natalee. Obviously something bad happened and it was probably when she fought back,tried to escape or threatened them. How many times could something bad happen? Probably just that one time and and her DNA was at the Van Der Sloot property.

We know Joran has terrible problems with his anger and is a sociopath. Lorenzo is some crazy rich guy who doesnt care about anything and borders on insanity. Take your pick who could be so cruel or angry enough to bash her in the head and take her life. Everything I have read and seen leads right back at Joran,Paulus and that property. It doesnt really matter what the motive was anymore it's who took her life away and who covered it up.

[Kat_Gram]

The " boyfriends " name has never been disclosed.
I don't doubt that Natalee had her share of admirers, the MB girls who did not have boyfriends in the group were all attractive and probably were hit on alot.
There was no mention of anyone on particular in any of the FBI statements.
The thing with GVC on the Friday doesn't seem to hae anyhting ot do with this.
............
Glad to read that things are going well on the ship with the search. 

[Observer]

Update:29-Dec- 2335 hrs

Dockside, the ROV team went into action this morning on board the Persistence. Before a test dive could be performed, all systems were checked and rechecked. Once the diagnostics were complete, the Persistence and crew went out to a test dive site known to be free of obstructions and major hazards to the ROV. The purpose of testing the ROV was two fold: 1) ensure all systems function perfectly underwater in full operation mode, and 2) prove the Persistence could hold location over the ROV, track the vehicle, and maneuver itself to keep the ROV umbilical cable out of the ship's screws.
During the first test dive, the deployment went smoothly. The ROV motored to the bow of the boat, while the captain kept the stern of the Persistence into the seas. The purpose of this maneuver was to keep the ROV umbilical out of the ship's screws. During this maneuver, the umbilical got temporarily hung up on the ship's hull, but freed itself. The visibility through the water column with the ROV cameras was excellent. When the ROV reached the seafloor we noticed it could not maintain control over it's attitude because of the very strong currents. On the second and third test dive more weight was added to better control the umbilical and ROV. At dusk, the final test was successful and proved we could maintain safe control over both the Persistence and ROV. With a sigh of relief from all, the Persistence and crew resumed survey mode. We will run additional sonar lines into the early morning.

http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2007/12/ix-dive-series-next-phase.html

[Helen Back]

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
---------------
No idea who else this could be from everyone we know in this case. The only BF I can possibly think of earlier in the week would be GVC. Rubbing against her while dancing at C&C or possibly being the one in a uniform that was seen talking to her. The person was described as being a local man in his 20's,too old to be GVC.

I don't see Joran being scared shi*less of any of the pimps or witnesses we have talked about in this case. Unless it's Andre Meneses or someone else who's name is not in the case files and is some type of Colombian Drug lord or dangerous person that somehow is the 5th suspect.

What about Lorenzo? He fits the description. But what is his motive? 
I have never seen what his motive could have been.  Simian says jealousy, but who could be that jealous after one encounter?  Of course they are all nuts.

I was trying to think out of the Lorenzo box  I don't buy the jealousy thing at all and I think they embelished the BF thing from earlier in the week. Probably was just a chance encounter. We know Boostunit.com(Aruban site) had a thread up about Natalee's lunch with Lorenzo or whatever. Who's going to get jealous over a unconscious girl?  I think he probably helped out Joran and the Van Der Sloots and is a witness. I doubt he shot Natalee,Beat her or gave her a fatal dose. I think Natalee left her marks on Joran and Guido for everyone to see and I do not think they received bruises and scratches from burying her body.

Jossy told us Lorenzo and Joran were very close and he said he confirmed that they were brothers. I dont think he was scared of Lorenzo one bit. The only motive here was drugging her for some type of sexual deviance like rape or filming a video or they were paid so someone else so they could rape Natalee. Obviously something bad happened and it was probably when she fought back,tried to escape or threatened them. How many times could something bad happen? Probably just that one time and and her DNA was at the Van Der Sloot property.

We know Joran has terrible problems with his anger and is a sociopath. Lorenzo is some crazy rich guy who doesnt care about anything and borders on insanity. Take your pick who could be so cruel or angry enough to bash her in the head and take her life. Everything I have read and seen leads right back at Joran,Paulus and that property. It doesnt really matter what the motive was anymore it's who took her life away and who covered it up.

I also think everything points to Paulus and Joran.  According to Nat's friends, she was never away from the group for a long period of time, and they were in Aruba for such a short period of time.

I have to say, from watching Natalee in the home videos, she was a total innocent. 

I do think Lorenzo may also have had involvement at some point.  If the Gottenbos were not involved, perhaps Lorenzo was.

[Magnolia]

One thing that has always made me think Lorenzo was involved somehow is that his family owns an import export business, I'm assuming somewhere near the port, or the container port.  Sorry, I can't find that info and address at the moment.

In one of Deepak's statements regarding the evening of Natalee's disapperance, he mentions that they drove past the container port.  I thought that an odd thing to mention unless they were afraid they had been spotted in the area.

Just my own thoughtprint sticking with me, I guess.  But since Hodges talks about the significance of a container regarding Deepak's statements about Nat, I always thought about other containers.  If you wanted to move someone around without being noticed, containerizing them in a crate or other shipping device would certainly be effective.  Crates and containers everywhere, sort of in plain view, yes?

What a clever way to hide the drugs...as in heroin and cocaine and others.  Just like in the movies. What kind of things did they export? Do you know?

I have no idea.  What natural resources does Aruba have to export?  Drugs and hand cream?

What could they import?  Drugs and everything else?

Everything on that rock would have to be imported.  There is no food
source there other than the sea.  There is no industry except oil
and aloe.  It is a barren place.

[Helen Back]

Once again, we find ourselves trying to sort out the details of the case when the facts have been obscured and totally scrambled for us.

What I do know is that the corrupt Dutch judges have made sure that Natalee has no justice on Aruba, and that the elite are protected, maintaining the status quo.

Paulus and the corrupt Dutch judges and justice officials are the reason the case is a shambles and there is no prosecution. 

Keep the faith and I'll see you here tomorrow.  Good night all.

[sirensong]

The " boyfriends " name has never been disclosed.
I don't doubt that Natalee had her share of admirers, the MB girls who did not have boyfriends in the group were all attractive and probably were hit on alot.
There was no mention of anyone on particular in any of the FBI statements.
The thing with GVC on the Friday doesn't seem to have anything to do with this.
............
Glad to read that things are going well on the ship with the search. 

I have a tendency to think maybe it does.  Joran was soooo angry about Natalee being a "goody two shoes", and made many remarks about Beth thinking she was a virgin.  I think this anger may come from this thing that happened.  They may have thought her a snob for rebuking this advance.  I feel that the attitude there is "you know you want it" type of thing, and this may have angered them.  Does that make sense to anyone?

I also wonder where Guido fits in to all of this.  I think he is the one with the alibi.   He was the only one held on suspicion of heavy battery, His lawyer being so well known and fighting so quickly, and succeeding in keeping him out of jail, it just seems to point to guilt to me.

[GabbyG]

Simian Says: June 22nd, 2005 at 6:01 pm
The first guy she met has all the motive. The second guy is scared sh*tless in a cell.
---------------
No idea who else this could be from everyone we know in this case. The only BF I can possibly think of earlier in the week would be GVC. Rubbing against her while dancing at C&C or possibly being the one in a uniform that was seen talking to her. The person was described as being a local man in his 20's,too old to be GVC.

I don't see Joran being scared shi*less of any of the pimps or witnesses we have talked about in this case. Unless it's Andre Meneses or someone else who's name is not in the case files and is some type of Colombian Drug lord or dangerous person that somehow is the 5th suspect.

I believe it's Lorenzo, I have believed he was involved since very early in the case. And...IF he is connected to drug running, drug lords, etc. he IS someone jvds would be scared of, I believe. This would very possibly also explain how he has managed to stay out of the limelight, IF he is in fact connected to drug lords. Aruba is run by drug money, prostitution, etc. Personally I believe that the ALE in the beginning were afraid of the drug lords, and because of Lorenzo's connections he was protected. This would explain him being "interrogated" and released early in the case and nothing more mentioned about him until just recently. For me it would explain a lot of other things also. Lorenzo was said to have a "cigarette" boat. With his connections he could easily find people to cover for him that night, giving him his alibi.
During the first week of the case I read that Natalee had dinner on Friday night with someone named Lorenzo. This was the first time I had heard that name in connection with this case, this is when I first became aware of Lorenzo. I made some notes, and when I went back later on to find where I had read that, it was gone...poof. I have since read that Natalee had dinner with "someone" but Lorenzo's name was no longer mentioned. I believe this because I saw it for myself, I read it myself...so I think they did meet, that Lorenzo did have occasion to see Natalee and be around her a bit. We have all seen her in the videos, have seen how beautifully she moved, how softly she spoke, how gentle her demeanor was. She had "Class" written all over her, just the kind of female someone like Lorenzo would enjoy getting to know better, would like to put his mark on. Because of these things I believe it's very possible that Lorenzo is somehow involved. JMHO tho, as always.

[Observer]

Interesting reading this Dutch blog,located 2 friends of Joran,HI casino worker and a classmate of Gillam Van Der Straaten. Still nothing terribly interesting..I do see they were speculating a bit after Anita's Interview and reading at SM and RWV 

   Quote:
     On Wednesday, June 29, 2005 11:22 wrote TheMassive the following:

     [..]

     Anyone who says he knows more?

Well for example, this video:

http://Http://www.planet.nl/plan (...) 592111/sc id = = # 15f6ca

In the latter piece says the mother of Joran he said to her:
"I should have brought her to a responsible adult. That I blame myself and I will blame my whole life. "

This means quite sure that Van der Sloot Jr. There are many more of af know mi Meanwhile he continues to silence them or did he perhaps to the Aruban police said (and therefore not known to the media) and the Aruban police / justice tries all appropriate gluing pieces together. I read somewhere that one of Scared Monkeys Lorenzo also is interrogated in this case but has a good alibi provided by his friends who argue that it all night that night at home. This shows afterparty's organizing in Aruba and is a "crazy" once described his father (a VW dealer) has committed suicide. It also was suggested that he SM on the days before Natalee was missing and before they Joran onmoette with her would be raised, or a relationship would have had. Meanwhile, the rumors but still ... The observation in this video AvdS I then suspect whether there is not another in the game and there is much more to the matter than hitherto in the media is telling. Right?

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. - Marcel Proust

BwennieBren
1 + 1 = 11
Wednesday, June 29, 2005 @ 14:13


BTW some information on that Lorenzo:

     Quote:
     According to AmericaninAruba, Lorenzo has a house on the main road of Savaneta and also another one in Seroe Alejandro.

     By AmericaninAruba:

     The Lorenzo guy who was questioned yesterday is known for having underground parties at one of his houses. The house is rather isolated and surrounded by lots of brush and cactus.

     A poster from Aruba on Scared Monkeys is claiming that in addition to SGC, there was another guy detained yesterday. This other guy, Lorenzo, is known to be wild and crazy, especially since his father killed himself a few years ago, according to the poster.

     The other person, a "Lorenzo" who was allegedly questioned yesterday, is a crazy dude whose father owned the local VW dealership but the father offed himself a few years ago.

     Lorenzo the character - hsi father owned the Vwagen distributor here…. But after his father committed suicide family they sold th ebusiness…

     The SBC (this mornigns judgement) - i have no idea!

     The lorenzo guy reportedly has connections to drugs and parties. The someone named Lorenzo was detained and questioned yesterday, but we do not think he has been arrested yet. He is known to be a nutcase, maybe capable of something. His dad owned the Volkswagon dealership there but committed suicide 3 years ago and was found hanging in the hallway of their home. Finally, someone suggested that maybe Natalee was taken to an "underground party". Other posters have explained that these parties are thrown after the bars close, that they are supposed to get permissions they have before them, that the police quickly close down any parties that do not have permission, but that Lorenzo lives out away from town and does throw parties and the police do not close those down as easily.

     This "Lorenzo" kid's name was mentioned from the very beginning .. In fact it is the first name I heard when this whole thing started…. My guess is that he must have been involved with her sometime during her trip, and that they are now bringing in EVERYBODY that had come in contact with her…. (From what I hear, "lorenzo" ONE troublemaker……) I do not know him, but I know he has had problems with the law before… .. something about a fight at one of his parties…. Cannot remember the details…

     Does anyone remember the one first couple of night we were all talk ing someone basically said, "when this all shakes out there are going to be major ramifications, there are ppl involved that are high up" .. And it is not gonna be pretty…. Sounds like this guy knew something about the actual crime… this was heading in the other area before we had this forum .. Does anyone remember and also, do you know who this might have been…

     I do not know if his name is Lorenzo or not… But from the very beginning "the son of an ex Vwagen dealer" was somehow involved… .. He was the first one mentioned….

The only real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes. - Marcel Proust

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/718927/6/50

[Observer]

Gabby,

There is a article at RWV I believe that talked about the lunch date or whatever with Lorenzo. Also there was a seperate discussion on it at boostunit.com(Arubans)before they took it down. It was him that some people speculated that Natalee ate/met with. I'M not sure why or how that rumor got around so early in the case. I just wish we had one more solid piece of evidence to link this all together.

[wreck]

I want to know ONE thing from Mos:
Is the failure of this case due to ineptness or corruption?????? (I think both -- but I want you to come out and say it - COWARD!!!!!)

[Observer]

Hilarisch die link:zondag 3 juli 2005 @ 02:25

    quote:
    The incredibly decrepit Aruban Keystone cops and their banana republic judicial system who have handled this case like MC Hammer handled his finances during the 90’s and . . .

    quote:
    What the heck is a good-looking blonde girl doing leaving her friends at midnight to go off with the Netherlands’ version of Lurch and the local Mango brothers?
---------
   
Fun.

Did you know that the Lurch-actor from the original Adams Family was a Dutchman?

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/721226/4/50

[Observer]

I noticed this was taken out of the original article.

Aruban Judge Frees Two Holloway Suspects

Tuesday, July 05, 2005

A lone protester walked back and forth in front of the courthouse with a sign reading "Let them go. They are innocent. This is a setup."

She identified herself as Myriam Croes, but would not comment further.
http://forum.fok.nl/topic/721226/5/50