Natalee Case Discussion #711 1/08 - 1/12/08

[Observer]

Justice for Natalee Holloway
Oprah.com
Jan 10, 2008 9:34 PM
 2njsons 1 posts since
Jan 10, 2008
I'm glad to see you will have Beth Holloway and her son, Matt, on your show next week. The case needs to be heard and seen on the networks and it's finally going to be on yours. There are many who have supported the family from the outset, which will be 3 long years this May.

Justice for Natalee
 lsl1020
Jan 10, 2008
Reply 1. Re: Justice for Natalee Holloway Jan 10, 2008 10:21 PM
Thank you Oprah! Natalee Holloway's story needs to be told, and I am delighted that you are having her mother Beth and brother Matt on your show next week. I have followed the story from day one and as 2nj stated have supported Beth and Dave in their quest for answers. This is a story that every parent, and every American that plans to travel to that "happy little island" ? needs to know about.

I hope and pray that one day soon, there will be Justice for Natalee.

http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/13274

[MumInOhio]

Regarding the discussions on Charles Croes and Digicel, notice that Satish said Deepak told him that Steve Croes worked for Digicel, he thinks. I have some posts that say Satish and Steve knew each other, will have to find them. Posters found pictures of Satish on Steve tickle site.

I have been trying to track down some of the rumors on Steve from the day he was arrested, but am not having much luck. Digicel worker,EMT, pilot,DJ and from an influential family that owns a newspaper.

From Satish’s 6/10 PV

"I was informed of my rights. I am still going to stand by the statement I made as a witness at the police station in Bubali. I do remember now that my brother had told me. Last week Friday my brother told me that the man Steve had seen us when we dropped off Natalee Holloway that night at the Holiday Inn Hotel. My brother Deepak told me that Steve had said to him that he had seen us. I myself do not know Steve. My brother thinks that Steve works at Digicel. I don't personally know Steve. I have never seen Steve. According to my brother, Steve had told him that he had dropped off people at the Holiday Inn on Monday May 30th at approximately 01.45 hours. My brother has also told me that Steve was also in Carlos & Charlies that night

. According to me Steve had told my brother that he was dropping off tourists at the Holiday Inn Hotel that night. I did not ask my brother what kind of car Steve drives and he also did not tell me that. On May 29th 2005 we arrived at Carlos & Charlies between 23.30 hours and 23.45 hours. That night at Carlos & Charlies we each drank a "Yard". I only had a "Yard" that night in Carlos & Charlies. My brother also only had one "Yard". Joran had drunk a "Yard" and a "body shot". Joran also had a shot of another drink. I do not know what kind of drink that is. I saw that the girl Natalee also drank a shot of the drink together with Joran. We that night left Carlos & Charlies at approximately 01.15.

[MumInOhio]

Good Morning OE and Pita


Pita...I am looking for info on Guido's Dad...do you have any? TIA

[private eye]

MsMarple  
The closest match in the RU post seems to be "11/10/2005 - 46 - Male - Poison"

This indeed did happen and was posted in a paper.  Which one I can't remember now, but when we went to aruba that beach was pointed out to me as to "this is where the man drank poison".  And that was only 2 months later which is why I remember it so well.  Hope that helps.  I have no links.

This was the picture in the paper for that event:

Just how many people have you ever heard of who have committed suicide with poison? Extremely violent death, excruciating pain. Its not like drugs are hard to come by to overdose if you really want to end it. Next they will claim a beheading was a suicide.

[Peaches]

the bank story was a LOAD OF CRAP 

So...why was it so important to account for the time at the bank
or to invent a reason to go to the bank?
Joran said several times that he kept cash at his room.
Paulus picked Joran up at school at 12:30 and they went to
the police station.  What did they do then?

I get confused when you use BJ for Black Jack, *******

[/b]

You're not the only one......

[private eye]

Posted tonight at RU:

K Hemingway = Moonshadows (FOB) explains her position in the case 

Anita you are reaping what you have sown. You forced your son down this path, as he recanted in the back of the police car so plainly, a path of lies and deceit thus depriving himself of the chance for redemption and a opportunity to walk with the Lord. You reinforced that it is OK to do all of the sordid things that he did, and thus insured that he will continue doing them. Junior Sportster took your instruction as well, wanting to be the man that his dad and brother are. God help what your poor daughter must think of her importance in the world as it is plain to her that women are worthless as her male role models have shown her and spineless as you have so obviously demonstrated to her. Don't bother trying to explain this to your children because children listen to what adults do, not what they say, and your actions clearly describe your lack of morals.

Pity you, I don't, because it could have been different and can be different. Your family doesn't have to be destroyed by the cancer you have intentionally decided to not treat. You need to pray to God to grant you the strength to save your children. To be a mother who nurtures her children helping them achieve their potential, to be have happy childhoods, grow into strong adults, and to present you with happy well adjusted families and children. This is that moment for you, that pivotal moment in time, when the future generations of your family are going to be determined by your actions. The responsibility for generations to come depends squarely upon you, precisely at this moment in history. And it is so easy for you to ensure that those future days for your family are days that are blessedly happy if you remember one little sentence. You never do the wrong thing by doing the right thing. I know I am rooting for your family to have some bright days ahead, but it can only happen if you find your strength.

[Magnolia]

MsMarple  
The closest match in the RU post seems to be "11/10/2005 - 46 - Male - Poison"

This indeed did happen and was posted in a paper.  Which one I can't remember now, but when we went to aruba that beach was pointed out to me as to "this is where the man drank poison".  And that was only 2 months later which is why I remember it so well.  Hope that helps.  I have no links.

This was the picture in the paper for that event:

Just how many people have you ever heard of who have committed suicide with poison? Extremely violent death, excruciating pain. Its not like drugs are hard to come by to overdose if you really want to end it. Next they will claim a beheading was a suicide.

My great granddaddy committed suicide right on the town square in Montecello,
Arkansas...course he was 88 years old.

[Magnolia]

forgot to say...he drank poison that he had just bought at the drugstore.

[Nut44x4]

We knew Moonshadows claimed to be Anita's friend but who is Chris Keating the other registered owner at FOB2? I see he is also originally from Michigan and lives in Florida 

I have posted this before and many of you are aware of this.
Moonshadows runs a business w/ Chris Keating in Indian Rocks Beach, FL
http://www.moonshadowsandrainforests.com/



http://www.indiebeauty.com/directory/listing.asp?by=sc&id=Florida
MoonShadows and RainForests

Owner: Christopher Keating
Member Since September 2007
Address: 501 20th Ave, Indian Rocks Beach,, FL 33785
Phone: (727) 517-1539
Fax:

MoonShadows and RainForests, Enchantingly Natural Candles, Bath and Body Products. Extraordinary Fragrance Lines! Exotic Florals, Forbidden Fruit, Designer Decadence Shades of Vanilla and Candles for Causes. Premium natural wax candles made from oils of soy, palm, and other botanicals. Matching bath and body products created from natural vegetable oils and butters all produced in the

[private eye]

forgot to say...he drank poison that he had just bought at the drugstore.

People are much kinder and gentler to themselves these days:) I am sure it happens, but not very often. Now days we save the poison for our enenies we want to suffer:)))))))) But I am sorry about your great grandfather. Even if he was 88 and guessing about the era in which he lived, he had a long life, I know it causes a family concern, regardless of the circumstances. Monticello is a nice town with a modern university with a lot of good people living there. Not to mention excellent deer and duck hunting, and crappie, brim, bass, and catfish fishing.

[Buckeye]

private eye said:

Junior Sportster took your instruction as well, wanting to be the man that his dad and brother are. God help what your poor daughter must think of her importance in the world as it is plain to her that women are worthless as her male role models have shown her and spineless as you have so obviously demonstrated to her


Does Anita have a daughter?? 

[NM]

NY is next:
http://www.nyttravelshow.com/

Okay, all you New Englanders and New Yorkers.
Don’t be shy. Natalee needs you. The group going needs you.

Bostonians and New Yorkers need to be reminded of the injustice done to Natalee.

Tourists need to be educated.

Boston and NY are major events.

Come and help out. Hold a sign. Hand out flyers and giveaways.
If you can only help for a day or a few hours, still volunteer.

Ask anyone who has attended these shows–you will feel so good about the way you helped Natalee.

So whatever it takes to get there, please try.
If you have to share rides, etc. to get there, just do it.
Where there is a will, there is a way.

Look on Yahoo: Last year I found an inexpensive flight for only $50 each way.

Please contact Vicki: JusticeforNatalee@gmail.com
if you want to attend or help in any way.

ALL HELP IS GREATLY APPRECIATED.

Thank you and peace to all of you.
 

Hey Monkeys and J4N,
If I can just chime in and say attending a travel show to be Natalee's voice is a wonderful experience. I was so surprised at the number of people who truly care about Natalee and her situation. These people were of every combination of age, gender and race. The privilege of representing Natalee and meeting Monkeys I will cherish forever in my heart.
Plus it is amazing to expirience all the hard work of both Monkeys and BFN behind the sceens.

[ldstlou]

Do we know who this is? Is it a new name?

Name: Francisco Thiel
Date:08 June 2005
Pages: 3
Writer/Initiator: Dennis Jacobs & Juan Boezem
Description: indication of an area

[Magnolia]

Justice for Natalee Holloway: Lost in the 'War on Terror'?
English (US)  January 10th, 2008 (The Corner Report)

By Patrick Cloutier

On 30 May 2005, Natalee Holloway disappeared while vacationing on Aruba. As of 18 December 2007, Aruban authorities closed her case. From beginning to end, the island's authorities demonstrated no interest in solving her disappearance. Why didn't the US pressure Aruba to look more thoroughly into Natalee Holloway's disappearance? Some answers may lie with Big Oil and the 'Global War on Terror.'


At the time of Natalee Holloway's disappearance, the U.S. Government was pressing NATO countries for military contributions to the Global War on Terror. One of these countries was the Netherlands. Aruba belongs to the Netherlands.

The Netherlands did have 1,400 men in Iraq, but withdrew them all in March 2005. The withdrawal of the Dutch from Iraq came soon after Spain--another NATO member--withdrew its 1,300 troops. The withdrawal of two NATO countries from Iraq was publicly damaging to the American war effort. If the Netherlands could be convinced to send more troops to Afghanistan, the move from Iraq would look more like a transfer than a withdrawal.

However, it was public outcry against Dutch abuse of Iraqi detainees that forced The Hague to withdraw its soldiers from Iraq, and the public remained sensitive to deploying troops anywhere else.

Unlike Spain, the Dutch government could be pressured by economic interests to provide troops for Washington. Royal Dutch Shell, an oil company, wanted to exploit Iraqi oil. But the Dutch troop withdrawal from Iraq may have jeopardized Shell's standing with the Bush-Cheney team. Sending Dutch troops to Afghanistan, however, might help Shell regain favor with them.

Then came the disappearance of Natalee Holloway on Dutch Aruba.

The primary suspect in Miss Holloway's disappearance was a Dutch citizen, Joran van der Sloot. Worse was the fact that Joran's father, Paulus van der Sloot, was a Dutch judge-in-training, who appears to have used his legal training to help his son evade prosecution. The United States, whose tourists spend millions of dollars into the island economy, could have influenced local authorities to make a proper investigation, but did not. Why?

An American attempt to force an investigation of Natalee Holloway's disappearance might have embarrassed US efforts to get a Dutch troop commitment. Already angered by American conduct in Iraq, Dutch opinion might have reacted strongly against US efforts to strong-arm Aruba over Natalee Holloway. Increased anti-American sentiment may have forced Dutch legislators to vote against sending troops to Afghanistan.

Evidently, the US and the Netherlands wanted the Natalee Holloway case to go away. The US remained silent about the young woman's fate, and the Dutch allowed Aruba to sabotage the case. On 23 December 2005, Prime Minister Balkenende decided to deploy additional Dutch troops to Afghanistan; on 3 February 2006, The Hague approved his decision. The US got the Dutch troops it wanted, and Royal Dutch Shell got the Iraqi oil it wanted.

Justice for Natalee Holloway may have been a victim of the "Big Picture" in the Global War on Terror. Undeniably, Big Oil has a stake in that part of the war in Iraq, which claims to advance American values. Why is it that American values, such as blind justice, do not appear to apply for Miss Holloway's family? But this war has been governed by paradoxes: the current Administration (and probably the next one, too) tells America that in order to spread US values, torture warehouses are indispensible; an increase in American-controlled oil drives gas prices up, not down; and bringing civil liberties to strangers 8,000 miles away, necessitates abandoning justice for Americans wherever they may be: at home, abroad, or just off-shore.

Patrick Cloutier is a writer who lives in Hartford, CT. He be contacted at patrick_john_cloutier@yahoo.com.

http://tinyurl.com/39rw2q

Very interesting article, *******.

[private eye]

Posted tonight at RU:

K Hemingway = Moonshadows (FOB) explains her position in the case 

Anita you are reaping what you have sown. You forced your son down this path, as he recanted in the back of the police car so plainly, a path of lies and deceit thus depriving himself of the chance for redemption and a opportunity to walk with the Lord. You reinforced that it is OK to do all of the sordid things that he did, and thus insured that he will continue doing them. Junior Sportster took your instruction as well, wanting to be the man that his dad and brother are. God help what your poor daughter must think of her importance in the world as it is plain to her that women are worthless as her male role models have shown her and spineless as you have so obviously demonstrated to her. Don't bother trying to explain this to your children because children listen to what adults do, not what they say, and your actions clearly describe your lack of morals.

Pity you, I don't, because it could have been different and can be different. Your family doesn't have to be destroyed by the cancer you have intentionally decided to not treat. You need to pray to God to grant you the strength to save your children. To be a mother who nurtures her children helping them achieve their potential, to be have happy childhoods, grow into strong adults, and to present you with happy well adjusted families and children. This is that moment for you, that pivotal moment in time, when the future generations of your family are going to be determined by your actions. The responsibility for generations to come depends squarely upon you, precisely at this moment in history. And it is so easy for you to ensure that those future days for your family are days that are blessedly happy if you remember one little sentence. You never do the wrong thing by doing the right thing. I know I am rooting for your family to have some bright days ahead, but it can only happen if you find your strength.

I do think I need to clarify something. I don't hold Anita responsible for the actions of her son involving the "something went wrong." Joran was a man/child at the time, young, immature but too old for Anita to watch 24/7, and like all of our children he did something stupid, he made a mistake, one with tragic consequences, and as a result it would be foolish for me to judge Anita responsible for the act, or for me to say that Anita chose for her son to do whatever it is that he did. My kids certainly aren't perfect, and none of their friends are, and sometimes they make dumb mistakes. Fortunately, so far their mistakes haven't had this tragic an outcome. But as kids do, even kids who completely ignore every word their parents utter, and defy every word of parental authority they have ever heard, when there is big trouble, they run to their parents seeking the wisdom and direction of their parents on what to do as a result.

It is the response and direction that Anita chose as a plan for Joran to cope with his mistake that I hold Anita responsible for. That is what I mean when I say she chose this path for him.  I think she did not know in the beginning exactly what happened, and she was innocent and truly a loving mother defending her child.

But she has now figured out what he did, she knows what her husband did, she knows of the deceit and she knows of the cover up that her husband has directed her son to follow. She knows that her husband is sorry as far as this type of action involves, probably guilty as well, and that only she is strong enough to step up to the plate to save her son by teaching him the virtue of owning up for his mistakes, accepting his responsibility, helping ease Beth's loss, and helping her son to move on from this and become a well adjusted adult. As a mother she also knows how impressionable her other children are, and she knows that they know as well what went down at the house that night.

But I am not saying she directed Joran down the path of causing the harm, directly. Children make mistakes. Adults help them learn from them, recover, and move on. And I stand corrected, I understand there is no daughter, which is fortunate. However, there are more sportsters, which is sad. However, who knows, Anita may yet feel her maternal callings and correct this, resulting in great things for Anita's family as well as Beth's family.

Anyway, Anita, all of our children make mistakes, all of us as parents make mistakes, and I certainly don't expect you to be perfect. I'm not. But it is time to correct the mistake, to expect consideration from Beth for correcting the mistake, and to help your son deal with whatever it is that went wrong that night so that he can have a happy life. Plus it is time to stop being so cruel to Beth. It seems to me that there are a lot of people depending on you Anita, please don't let them down.

[private eye]

Justice for Natalee Holloway: Lost in the 'War on Terror'?
English (US)  January 10th, 2008 (The Corner Report)

By Patrick Cloutier

On 30 May 2005, Natalee Holloway disappeared while vacationing on Aruba. As of 18 December 2007, Aruban authorities closed her case. From beginning to end, the island's authorities demonstrated no interest in solving her disappearance. Why didn't the US pressure Aruba to look more thoroughly into Natalee Holloway's disappearance? Some answers may lie with Big Oil and the 'Global War on Terror.'


At the time of Natalee Holloway's disappearance, the U.S. Government was pressing NATO countries for military contributions to the Global War on Terror. One of these countries was the Netherlands. Aruba belongs to the Netherlands.

The Netherlands did have 1,400 men in Iraq, but withdrew them all in March 2005. The withdrawal of the Dutch from Iraq came soon after Spain--another NATO member--withdrew its 1,300 troops. The withdrawal of two NATO countries from Iraq was publicly damaging to the American war effort. If the Netherlands could be convinced to send more troops to Afghanistan, the move from Iraq would look more like a transfer than a withdrawal.

However, it was public outcry against Dutch abuse of Iraqi detainees that forced The Hague to withdraw its soldiers from Iraq, and the public remained sensitive to deploying troops anywhere else.

Unlike Spain, the Dutch government could be pressured by economic interests to provide troops for Washington. Royal Dutch Shell, an oil company, wanted to exploit Iraqi oil. But the Dutch troop withdrawal from Iraq may have jeopardized Shell's standing with the Bush-Cheney team. Sending Dutch troops to Afghanistan, however, might help Shell regain favor with them.

Then came the disappearance of Natalee Holloway on Dutch Aruba.

The primary suspect in Miss Holloway's disappearance was a Dutch citizen, Joran van der Sloot. Worse was the fact that Joran's father, Paulus van der Sloot, was a Dutch judge-in-training, who appears to have used his legal training to help his son evade prosecution. The United States, whose tourists spend millions of dollars into the island economy, could have influenced local authorities to make a proper investigation, but did not. Why?

An American attempt to force an investigation of Natalee Holloway's disappearance might have embarrassed US efforts to get a Dutch troop commitment. Already angered by American conduct in Iraq, Dutch opinion might have reacted strongly against US efforts to strong-arm Aruba over Natalee Holloway. Increased anti-American sentiment may have forced Dutch legislators to vote against sending troops to Afghanistan.

Evidently, the US and the Netherlands wanted the Natalee Holloway case to go away. The US remained silent about the young woman's fate, and the Dutch allowed Aruba to sabotage the case. On 23 December 2005, Prime Minister Balkenende decided to deploy additional Dutch troops to Afghanistan; on 3 February 2006, The Hague approved his decision. The US got the Dutch troops it wanted, and Royal Dutch Shell got the Iraqi oil it wanted.

Justice for Natalee Holloway may have been a victim of the "Big Picture" in the Global War on Terror. Undeniably, Big Oil has a stake in that part of the war in Iraq, which claims to advance American values. Why is it that American values, such as blind justice, do not appear to apply for Miss Holloway's family? But this war has been governed by paradoxes: the current Administration (and probably the next one, too) tells America that in order to spread US values, torture warehouses are indispensible; an increase in American-controlled oil drives gas prices up, not down; and bringing civil liberties to strangers 8,000 miles away, necessitates abandoning justice for Americans wherever they may be: at home, abroad, or just off-shore.

Patrick Cloutier is a writer who lives in Hartford, CT. He be contacted at patrick_john_cloutier@yahoo.com.

http://tinyurl.com/39rw2q

Very interesting article, *******.

I agree. Good research!!!!!!!

[MumInOhio]

Do we know who this is? Is it a new name?

Name: Francisco Thiel
Date:08 June 2005
Pages: 3
Writer/Initiator: Dennis Jacobs & Juan Boezem
Description: indication of an area

Hi ldstlou...I had seen that before and for some reason thought that he was ALE describing the area..doesn't really make sense, but that was my thoughts. (He is not listed on the Dr Phil log as one of ALE doing any questioning.)

[Buckeye]

Do we know who this is? Is it a new name?

Name: Francisco Thiel
Date:08 June 2005
Pages: 3
Writer/Initiator: Dennis Jacobs & Juan Boezem
Description: indication of an area

Old thread identifies him as a fisherman:

Francisco Remigio Thiel   fishermen      6/5/2005   13:55

[private eye]

private eye said:

Junior Sportster took your instruction as well, wanting to be the man that his dad and brother are. God help what your poor daughter must think of her importance in the world as it is plain to her that women are worthless as her male role models have shown her and spineless as you have so obviously demonstrated to her


Does Anita have a daughter?? 

No, I was promptly corrected. I am not sure what may me think she did!!!!!!!!!!

[private eye]

Is it possible to actually review the documents or can we simply access the index of the documents provided?