Natalee Case Discussion #711 1/08 - 1/12/08

[Observer]

Someone asked me how the Persistence got her name!  I asked my brother John how he came to give her that name and here is his answer:

Persistence is the ability to continue to push against all odds, for however long it takes……yet have the intelligence to walk away from the unachievable…………..and of course knowing the difference between the two.  In my life I have come to admire those who never quite achieve the pinnacle, but, never give up hope….keep striving……keep fighting…….Persistence………These people are the most competitive foes and most loyal allies.    They possess not only the most important God given trait, but also the second as well…………DETERMINATION…………(which by the way is the name of our next vessel)

I thought the ending was cute!

[Tamikosmom]

I agree PI. I remember when my older sister made a mistake in her youth, and my parents found out about it. They sat her down and said we will back you 100% in correcting this mistake, but if you don't go to the authorities, we will. You have to face the consequences. That had to be one of the hardest things my parents ever did because she could have faced jail time!! But they went to the authorities, and my sister had to acknowledge her part and do what it took to correct it!!!
By the way...today my sister is happily married and the mother of 6 fantastic kids and doing fine!!! lol
Parents have to teach their children to take responsibility for their actions, not cover for them!!

ldstlou ... my husband and I were put in a similar situation with our eldest son when he was in his late teens.  We discovered that he had submitted a false claim to an insurance company in regards to wheels that were allegedly stolen from his precious Datsun 510.

We reported our findings to his insurance adjuster while he was at school.  If thoughts could kill ... Tamikosmom would not be posting on the Natalee Holloway case today.

Why was his Dad and I suspicious?  This had been drooling for three months over fancy wheels advertised in a catalog ... fancy wheels he knew darn well he could not afford.  We suspected that he anticipated an insurance settlement would go a long ways towards the purchase of those wheels.  We were right.   

Janet

And with the beauty of hindsight, or at the time by simply having faith, what seemed to get your son in trouble actually had a positive ending. If you hadn't of corrected it yourselves, he might have gotten away with it but kept doing it until he got in worse trouble, as an adult, with greater consequences. But it is heartbreaking at the time a parent has to act and you wonder did I do the right thing, will he ever forgive us etc. I admire you.

PI ... what was heartbreaking ... my husband and I were worried sick regarding the direction in life that our son was taking.

However ... it was never a question of whether or not our son would forgive us.  It was him that did wrong ... not us.  We were secure in the action that we took ... an action we believed was right.

The situation did not resolve itself overnight but ... fast forward twenty years ... this guy ... who is now a proud Father ... comprehends perfectly what motivated his own Father to pick up the phone and call that adjuster ... the motivation was LOVE.

Janet

And that is the view at the end of the path I wish Anita could see.

I also wish she had your moral compass and parental insight. You both were great parents, ooops, are))))))

.... far from it.

PI ... like all parents we directed our kids on the path that we deemed was beneficial for them and ... society as a whole.  However ... looking back there are some areas of their upbringing we would have instructed or done thing differently if we had to do it over again.  However ... now that the kids are grown ... they realize the mistakes we made we derived from a foundation of love and ... they are now in a position to make positive changes in their lives.

Janet

[Observer]

False tips in the search for Jose Tromp
(Awemainta.com)

[Tamikosmom]

HERE IS SOME CLASSIC SPIN FROM REUBEN "RUBBERLEGS" TRAPPENBURG, JULY 1.2005. HIGHLIGHTS IN RED:

from drudge:

Prosecutor: 3 Charged With Aruba Murder

By PETER PRENGAMAN
The Associated Press
Friday, July 1, 2005; 5:17 PM

ORANJESTAD, Aruba -- Three young men detained in the disappearance of an Alabama teenager have been charged with murder since their arrest more than three weeks ago, Aruba's chief prosecutor told The Associated Press on Friday.

The charges were not announced at the time to protect the feelings of the family of 18-year-old Natalee Holloway, said Attorney General Karin Janssen.

"At the time, we didn't want to upset the (Holloway) family talking about murder while they searched," Janssen said.

Janssen, who has said several times in the past three weeks that no one was charged in the case, said they also kept the information quiet in order not to compromise their investigation. Authorities have said they have no physical evidence suggesting Holloway is dead.

<snipped>

Dayhiker ... considering Janssen implied there was no physical evidence in the initial detentions ... I wonder what foundation Janssen based her suspicions on.
 
Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Joran van der Sloot:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder

Deepak Kalpoe:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.


Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005
 
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion.
 

Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

[Kermit]

Joran targeted her.

If it was just an accident - no need to cover it up.
NO FORGIVENESS UNTIL THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST AN AMERICAN TOURIST - PERIOD AND
ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

i'm standing shoulder to shoulder with you on this, kermit.
dennisintn

Hear! Hear!

ribbit

[Kermit]

Joran targeted her.

If it was just an accident - no need to cover it up.
NO FORGIVENESS UNTIL THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST AN AMERICAN TOURIST - PERIOD AND
ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

i'm standing shoulder to shoulder with you on this, kermit.
dennisintn

Both of you are the type of people everyone would like to have stand with them during a crisis. Unwavering, firm, and committed. I know Beth appreciates you.

Maybe Joran will save his own parents and do teach them that truth is honor, truth is redemption.
The alternative is hell.

Kiss from the frog to Miss Beth.

[Buckeye]

I don't understand Dutch, but DeVries doesn't sound happy.  I hope someone is listening that knows what's being said.

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=6010887&start=0:01:06

[Kermit]

Joran targeted her.

If it was just an accident - no need to cover it up.
NO FORGIVENESS UNTIL THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST AN AMERICAN TOURIST - PERIOD AND
ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

Kermit ... I believe Natalee's death was unintended.  I suspect that the plan was to leave a drugged/passed out Natalee at the beach after the "pimps" were through using her.  Natalee would wake up ... make her own way back to the hotel and ... then catch the plan for home.

I suspect that Natalee had to "disappear" because of the incriminating DNA ... the result of wrongdoing ... that would be found on her person.

Keep in mind that Joran conveyed to Greta that this had happened twenty times before and nothing happened.

Janet

++++++++++++


Jossy Mansur
'Scarborough Country'
August 26, 2005

DANIELS:  It definitely smells that way.  You know, if you take the prosecution‘s statement at its face, we are talking on a whole new level, the charges here.  We are talking about drugs.  We are talking about rape and we are talking about rape of many different people.  There are four guys now in custody, four best friends.  What does that tell you?
 
MANSUR:  Well, what it tells me is that, really, these four guys are friends.  They belong to the same group, these party boys that go out and prey on young, unsuspected girls or other kinds of girls also that are out to have a good time, not suspecting what they‘re in for with these predators around.

And they are—they not only appear in photographs together, but I understand that Freddy lives very near to the Joran house.  So, there is a bond between them.  There is a group that they call themselves the pimps, in which all of these participate.

Unintentional means you did everything you could to save her.

So I disagree that Joran did not mean to murder Natalee. It is premeditated when you intentionally target someone to
render them unconscious in order to rape them! Dompig said it was a crime in Aruba and that Joran and Klapoes own confessions should get them 8 years! Murder would be 15 I think!

But the JUDGE let them go.

[2NJSons_Mom]

The comments here seem interesting...I'm not a translation whiz, though:

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/uitzending.php?id=274

[private eye]

Joran targeted her.

If it was just an accident - no need to cover it up.
NO FORGIVENESS UNTIL THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST AN AMERICAN TOURIST - PERIOD AND
ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

i'm standing shoulder to shoulder with you on this, kermit.
dennisintn

Both of you are the type of people everyone would like to have stand with them during a crisis. Unwavering, firm, and committed. I know Beth appreciates you.

Maybe Joran will save his own parents and do teach them that truth is honor, truth is redemption.
The alternative is hell.

Kiss from the frog to Miss Beth.

The real perversion of the case is that I am not sure that it isn't Joran covering up his Dad's actions!!!

[Dayhiker]

Dayhiker ... considering Janssen implied there was no physical evidence in the initial detentions ... I wonder what foundation Janssen based her suspicions on.
 
Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Joran van der Sloot:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder

Deepak Kalpoe:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.


Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005
 
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion.
 

Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

Common sense would say if someone is suspected of murder and kidnapping you would want to move quickly to search their residence and property, like Karin Janssen did with the two black security guards.

I would like to know what Prosecutor Karin Jannsen based her suspicions on since she didn't bother to collect hard physical evidence on a timely basis at the residence of Joran and Paulus van der Sloot, instead waiting 15 days before performing a search and a limited one at that.

I would also like to know why Karin Jannsen hasn't been held accountable by the glorious Dutch System for her participation in the cover-up.

[Kermit]

I don't understand Dutch, but DeVries doesn't sound happy.  I hope someone is listening that knows what's being said.

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=6010887&start=0:01:06

******* - can you screenshot that photo of Joran and PAPA?

PAPA has called in to the show!

[Kermit]

Dayhiker ... considering Janssen implied there was no physical evidence in the initial detentions ... I wonder what foundation Janssen based her suspicions on.
 
Janet

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Joran van der Sloot:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder

Deepak Kalpoe:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.


Arlene Ellis-Schipper
NANCY GRACE
July 20, 2005
 
ARLENE ELLIS-SCHIPPER, ARUBAN ATTORNEY: There is no grand jury in Aruba. It`s a different system. You are arrested based on suspicion, on strong suspicion.
 

Noraina Pietersz - Defence Attorney
Associated Press
June 9, 2005

Under Aruban law, only serious suspicion from investigators — not solid evidence — is needed for a judge to rule that suspects can be held, Pietersz said.

Common sense would say if someone is suspected of murder and kidnapping you would want to move quickly to search their residence and property, like Karin Janssen did with the two black security guards.

I would like to know what Prosecutor Karin Jannsen based her suspicions on since she didn't bother to collect hard physical evidence on a timely basis at the residence of Joran and Paulus van der Sloot, instead waiting 15 days before performing a search and a limited one at that.

I would also like to know why Karin Jannsen hasn't been held accountable by the glorious Dutch System for her participation in the cover-up.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the haystacks!

She arrested and charged the Security Guards with murder!
Based upon the statements and NO EVIDENCE!

Then she doesn't get the right search warrarnt and lets Corky the Judge Bob Witt tell her he is reducing the search warrarent. WHO IS KARIN JANSEEN WORKING FOR?

[Kermit]

Joran targeted her.

If it was just an accident - no need to cover it up.
NO FORGIVENESS UNTIL THEY ARE IN PRISON FOR THEIR CRIMES AGAINST AN AMERICAN TOURIST - PERIOD AND
ALL THOSE INVOLVED IN THE OBSTRUCTION OF JUSTICE!

i'm standing shoulder to shoulder with you on this, kermit.
dennisintn

Both of you are the type of people everyone would like to have stand with them during a crisis. Unwavering, firm, and committed. I know Beth appreciates you.

Maybe Joran will save his own parents and do teach them that truth is honor, truth is redemption.
The alternative is hell.

Kiss from the frog to Miss Beth.

The real perversion of the case is that I am not sure that it isn't Joran covering up his Dad's actions!!!

BINGO!

[Dayhiker]

I don't understand Dutch, but DeVries doesn't sound happy.  I hope someone is listening that knows what's being said.

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=6010887&start=0:01:06

This will be an interesting transcript. DeVries should be highly pissed after Joran trashing him in to the media.

[Observer]

Article from 2006(Translation)

Netherlands helps Holloway case

ORANJESTAD

Netherlands sends shortly agents at his own expense to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway to investigate. The Korps National Police Services in the Netherlands (KLPD) is at the request of Justice Minister Rudy Croes (MEP), Aruba helping with the case of American teenager. Croes has also asked Interpol the file from end to end.

Over a year ago Holloway disappeared during a school trip. All that time has worked on the case, without a trace of the girl was found. A week ago, Minister Croes a letter sent to The Hague with a request for help. He hopes that politieassistentie from Netherlands there a quicker solution to the unsolved mystery.

"Aruba lives along with the parents and close relatives, despite the negative campaign against the island is conducted," Croes writes in the letter.

The request was made to Minister Johan Remkes (VVD) of the Interior and Kingdom Relations for the minister, Atzo Nicolai (VVD). The KLPD will following the call on the entire leadership of the investigation.

Politiebeambten of the Dutch corps are also specially on the issue. Netherlands will also pay the costs that are involved with the deployment and residence of these agents on Aruba.

Furthermore, they are provided with a separate location from where they can work on the case. The police may carry a weapon and use it, and get opsporingsbevoegdheid. Also, they are provided with the relevant information from the file-Holloway and gives them access to all information systems.

The letter promises that the Dutch minister Croes agents receive the full cooperation of the (tracking) authorities and the administration. The letter shows that Croes also has made a formal request to Interpol to consider the case on the roughness from end to end.

"At the request of the Attorney-General seeks Interpol has still not accepted by the FBI (American federal police, ed.) released data in the table above matter," the minister wrote in the letter.

The Public Attorney's Office (OM) confirmed to be aware of the request, but stressed that it did not originate with Attorney General Theresa Croes-Pedra Fernandes, but from the Minister of Justice itself. He would Interpol in July have asked for help when he visited the headquarters of the international police organisation in the French city of Lyon.

The OM is also aware of the cooperation between the police forces from the Netherlands and Aruba and politieniveau reports that it is regulated and there is no request from the PPS has been done. "The criminal investigation into the Holloway case is still open. Dutch If the police can offer assistance, they are certainly welcome," says adviser Mariaine Croes.

http://www.suriname.nu/0niba/niba109a.html

[Observer]

I don't understand Dutch, but DeVries doesn't sound happy.  I hope someone is listening that knows what's being said.

http://player.omroep.nl/?aflID=6010887&start=0:01:06

******* - can you screenshot that photo of Joran and PAPA?

PAPA has called in to the show!

Hi Kermit..Sure I'll do it now.

[Dayhiker]

Common sense would say if someone is suspected of murder and kidnapping you would want to move quickly to search their residence and property, like Karin Janssen did with the two black security guards.

I would like to know what Prosecutor Karin Jannsen based her suspicions on since she didn't bother to collect hard physical evidence on a timely basis at the residence of Joran and Paulus van der Sloot, instead waiting 15 days before performing a search and a limited one at that.

I would also like to know why Karin Jannsen hasn't been held accountable by the glorious Dutch System for her participation in the cover-up.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What the haystacks!

She arrested and charged the Security Guards with murder!
Based upon the statements and NO EVIDENCE!

Then she doesn't get the right search warrarnt and lets Corky the Judge Bob Witt tell her he is reducing the search warrarent. WHO IS KARIN JANSEEN WORKING FOR?

This is clear corruption and favoritism by a Dutch prosecutor who has no regard for justice. Pure unadulterated cronyism on Karin Jannsen's part.

And the goverment of Holland just sat back and let their corrupt countrymen, that they put in office, run wild.

[Kermit]

Article from 2006(Translation)

Netherlands helps Holloway case

ORANJESTAD

Netherlands sends shortly agents at his own expense to the disappearance of Natalee Holloway to investigate. The Korps National Police Services in the Netherlands (KLPD) is at the request of Justice Minister Rudy Croes (MEP), Aruba helping with the case of American teenager. Croes has also asked Interpol the file from end to end.

Over a year ago Holloway disappeared during a school trip. All that time has worked on the case, without a trace of the girl was found. A week ago, Minister Croes a letter sent to The Hague with a request for help. He hopes that politieassistentie from Netherlands there a quicker solution to the unsolved mystery.

"Aruba lives along with the parents and close relatives, despite the negative campaign against the island is conducted," Croes writes in the letter.

The request was made to Minister Johan Remkes (VVD) of the Interior and Kingdom Relations for the minister, Atzo Nicolai (VVD). The KLPD will following the call on the entire leadership of the investigation.

Politiebeambten of the Dutch corps are also specially on the issue. Netherlands will also pay the costs that are involved with the deployment and residence of these agents on Aruba.

Furthermore, they are provided with a separate location from where they can work on the case. The police may carry a weapon and use it, and get opsporingsbevoegdheid. Also, they are provided with the relevant information from the file-Holloway and gives them access to all information systems.

The letter promises that the Dutch minister Croes agents receive the full cooperation of the (tracking) authorities and the administration. The letter shows that Croes also has made a formal request to Interpol to consider the case on the roughness from end to end.

"At the request of the Attorney-General seeks Interpol has still not accepted by the FBI (American federal police, ed.) released data in the table above matter," the minister wrote in the letter.

The Public Attorney's Office (OM) confirmed to be aware of the request, but stressed that it did not originate with Attorney General Theresa Croes-Pedra Fernandes, but from the Minister of Justice itself. He would Interpol in July have asked for help when he visited the headquarters of the international police organisation in the French city of Lyon.

The OM is also aware of the cooperation between the police forces from the Netherlands and Aruba and politieniveau reports that it is regulated and there is no request from the PPS has been done. "The criminal investigation into the Holloway case is still open. Dutch If the police can offer assistance, they are certainly welcome," says adviser Mariaine Croes.

http://www.suriname.nu/0niba/niba109a.html

Thanks ******* for posting this little nugget which once again demonstrates the jerk chain they are all involved in.

[klaasend]

Oprah has a forum where they allow posts about the shows.  There are 2 threads now regarding the upcomming show with Beth and Matt.  Heli and others at RU are starting to post there.  One of Heli's posts was already removed. 

Here are the links to the two threads in case anyone wants to leave a message.  I believe you have to register to post.  The poster with the nickname jhellshot is Heli from RU.  She has now reposted:

http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/13348?tstart=0

http://www.oprah.com/community/thread/13274?tstart=0