Natalee Case Discussion #711 1/08 - 1/12/08

[Buckeye]

private eye said:

Junior Sportster took your instruction as well, wanting to be the man that his dad and brother are. God help what your poor daughter must think of her importance in the world as it is plain to her that women are worthless as her male role models have shown her and spineless as you have so obviously demonstrated to her


Does Anita have a daughter?? 

No, I was promptly corrected. I am not sure what may me think she did!!!!!!!!!!

Well there are pictures of a pretty blonde with "the family" in New York and again at the airport in Holland when Joran first went there.  I don't know who she is.  Thought maybe you had an inside scoop.........

[Buckeye]

Is it possible to actually review the documents or can we simply access the index of the documents provided?

Some documents have been posted.  Most, have not.  The list is in response to the Phil McGraw request for disclosure by the Kalpos.  They are listing the documents, in their possession, that would coorelate with the McGraw request.  Whether they have, or will send McGraw copies, remains to be seen........

[klaasend]

Here is the latest from Natalee's Freebirds:



PRIME MINISTER NELSON ODUBER A MAN OF HIS WORD - OR PART OF THE ARUBAN COVER-UP?


When questioned about a cover up taking place, Jorge Pesquera, then President of Aruba's AHATA replied,

"Yes...yes there was." (p. 194 Beth Holloway book Loving Natalee).


Now that the criminal case against the 3 main suspects in Natalee Holloway's disappearance has been closed by Aruban officials, perhaps it is time for Prime Minister Nelson Oduber to make good on his intentions.

On November 9 of 2005, Nelson Oduber stated that he would like an "investigation into the investigation" conducted. He reiterated this intent in late January of 2006.

We agree it is high time for such an investigation.

With the numerous questionable and downright unethical activities of law enforcement, judiciary members, and government officials - Miss Holloway's fellow U.S. citizens request the documented facts that show who played key roles in "making mistakes" in this investigation.

From the detectives involved, to the initial prosecutor handling differing suspects and witnesses in different manners, to the judges ruling inconsistently and in a biased manner - we agree with Aruba's Prime Minister, in that there is definite cause for an in-depth look into these actions.

Greta Van Susteren - April 13
Professor from the Netherlands

“The investigation doesn't strike me as an example of professionalism. The investigation from the onset was somewhat bungled.”
refugeesunleashed.net/post-33291.html&highlight=greta#33291

DIARIO Aruba
4/6/2006

ORANJESTAD(AAN): Dutch criminal law experts recently expressed big criticism about the Aruban police investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway
They call the investigation methods strange and unprofessional.

“It is incomprehensible that police, after an important tip about the location of Natalee Holloway’s body, to not go search immediately.” ~ criminal law scholar of the University of Amsterdam, Menno Dolman

“This is very strange. Normally the area is closed off immediately, to dig and search for clues, but not in Aruba”. ~ legal psychologist, Peter van Koppen

“Total madness. “This is a total error” ~ criminal law expert of the University of Leiden, Hans Nijboer

“The media is the last option for investigators, you do not give out information that only the guilty could know.” ~ criminal law scholar of the University of Amsterdam, Menno Dolman
http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2006_04_02_archive.html

Aruba’s prime minister believes that authorities made mistakes at the start of the investigation of the Natalee Holloway case. ~ Ruben Trapenberg, Aruban Government Spokesperson
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-aruba_x.htm


DIARIO Aruba
11/09/2005

The Premier also made the promise that when the Holloway investigation ends, to bring an investigation into finding out what and how things went wrong.
posted by Getagrip @ 11/10/2005 12:45:00 AM


Amigoe
Jan 23, 2006
Oduber wants the discrepancies
in the Holloway-case be investigated

ARUBA -- After the Holloway-case is closed, Prime Minister Nelson Oduber (MEP) wants a thorough investigation be conducted on the course of everything that had to do with the investigation on the disappeared American teenager, especially the begin phase. He thinks that mistakes were made especially in this phase


*Will Prime Minister stand true to his own words?

*Will he finally authorize an unbiased agency to conduct an investigation into the persons and activities associated with this case?

*Will Aruba open their dossier to a competent investigative team for all the world to see what “mistakes” were made and by whom?

Prime Minister Nelson Oduber has made numerous differing statements about his true feelings about Natalee Holloway, her family, and his country’s investigation into her disappearance.

*Will the world finally be able to see if Aruba's Prime Minister is a man of his word?

*Does he finally realize that coming clean with the truth about this investigation will be the first step in repairing Aruba’s damaged tourism numbers?


"We've been working 50 years, day and night, to build up tourism," Oduber said last week.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,160064,00.html




Natalee and her family deserve justice, and we will not let up until they have it!
Natalee’s Freebirds
http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/

[ldstlou]

Do we know who this is? Is it a new name?

Name: Francisco Thiel
Date:08 June 2005
Pages: 3
Writer/Initiator: Dennis Jacobs & Juan Boezem
Description: indication of an area

Old thread identifies him as a fisherman:

Francisco Remigio Thiel   fishermen      6/5/2005   13:55

Thanks Buckeye...answered my own question...but should have waited for you...lol..you are MUCH faster!!!
For some reason...when I went you know where...I know, I know...I should stay away...lol...and they had a discovery list, I thought some of it was new. I was wrong.

[ldstlou]

I agree PI. I remember when my older sister made a mistake in her youth, and my parents found out about it. They sat her down and said we will back you 100% in correcting this mistake, but if you don't go to the authorities, we will. You have to face the consequences. That had to be one of the hardest things my parents ever did because she could have faced jail time!! But they went to the authorities, and my sister had to acknowledge her part and do what it took to correct it!!!
By the way...today my sister is happily married and the mother of 6 fantastic kids and doing fine!!! lol
Parents have to teach their children to take responsibility for their actions, not cover for them!!

[klaasend]

From Persistence:
http://nholloway.blogspot.com/2008/01/x-persistence.html

Update: Fri 12-Jan 1145 hrs
The seas calmed down dramatically since Wednesday. Last night was smooth sailing and saw double the progress of the previous nights. ...more to come later.

[Magnolia]

This is a report on the investigation of the investigators
from Amigoe Spring of 2006


ORANJESTAD – An investigation report on the efficiency of the Police Corps of Aruba (KPA) regarding integrity, states that the control on work procedure is poorly; promotional transfers take place, while there is a disciplinary investigation going; and there is no correct follow up after irregularities within the corps are signaled.

Forensic Services Caribbean in Curaçao did the investigation by order of Justice-minister Rudy Croes (MEP). Amigoe learned this from documents that the paper received for perusal. The report was already given to the then chief of police Ronny Bernadina on April 3rd of this year. The investigation took place in 2005 and based on the findings, Forensic Services Caribbean advices to draw up a master plan to deal with the integrity risks. Based on conversations with some key-officials within the KPA and external partners of the corps, like the Security Service, the Public Prosecutor, and the Coastguard, they have mapped nine risks. They have also analyzed summaries of integrity rules violations within the corps. They first noticed that many rules regarding work procedures and work processes are established, but that these are not univocal and not conveniently arranged. The procedures differ per (police-, editor) district and are implemented or interpreted differently.” Besides, several regulations are not complete. Not everybody is familiar with the procedures, they are difficult of access, and several of the versions used are outdated. Several procedures are too complex and have therefore lost their powers. “They have become dead letters”, states the report. There is lack of control on the observance of the procedures in all sectors of the organization. This has to do with not having qualitatively good employees on managerial positions. Another reason is that there is lack of open culture, in which employees dare to talk to each other. In order to restrict this risk, the bureau advices to further specify the career policy and to organize trainings that would provoke a culture change within the police corps. A third risk that can cause the integrity of the corps to come into play is the lack of confidence when it comes to exchange information. Confidential information is leaked to third parties and nobody knows what to do with the information or that the information can be used against you. “This lack of confidence has consequences for the internal- and external communication”, states the report. It also forms a hindrance for working effectively and efficiently. Their advice is again a culture chance in order to create confidence.

[private eye]

I agree PI. I remember when my older sister made a mistake in her youth, and my parents found out about it. They sat her down and said we will back you 100% in correcting this mistake, but if you don't go to the authorities, we will. You have to face the consequences. That had to be one of the hardest things my parents ever did because she could have faced jail time!! But they went to the authorities, and my sister had to acknowledge her part and do what it took to correct it!!!
By the way...today my sister is happily married and the mother of 6 fantastic kids and doing fine!!! lol
Parents have to teach their children to take responsibility for their actions, not cover for them!!

And the funny thing is that people are understanding, appreciative of the candor, and remarkably forgiving. In addition, the punishment is not as bad as what the fear drives us to believe, and the "guilty" feel 100% better. But it is a hard step to take, for both parent and child.

I have always thought that I could probably get past what Joran did, if he just admitted what it was, and showed his remorse and sincerity by doing whateevr he could to ease Beth's pain. I am sure there was some accident involved in this, and that the boys were young and immature, and I understand how things can go seriously wrong, much more than what was intended. But accidents happen in a flash and you can't go back and correct them. However this coverup is done methodically, with sober minds, adult minds, intentionally and visibly causing Beth tremendous anguish, and they don't seem to care one iota. In fact they act like it humors them. That is why I am going to enjoy watching Anita suffer her pain and feel no guilt, because it is her choice and her choice alone. This is no longer 2 kids out playing and one does something to hurt the other, this is no children at play.

The pain Beth feels is from the "blows" adults who are stone sober are hitting her with in the broad daylight.

[ldstlou]

I agree PI. I remember when my older sister made a mistake in her youth, and my parents found out about it. They sat her down and said we will back you 100% in correcting this mistake, but if you don't go to the authorities, we will. You have to face the consequences. That had to be one of the hardest things my parents ever did because she could have faced jail time!! But they went to the authorities, and my sister had to acknowledge her part and do what it took to correct it!!!
By the way...today my sister is happily married and the mother of 6 fantastic kids and doing fine!!! lol
Parents have to teach their children to take responsibility for their actions, not cover for them!!

And the funny thing is that people are understanding, appreciative of the candor, and remarkably forgiving. In addition, the punishment is not as bad as what the fear drives us to believe, and the "guilty" feel 100% better. But it is a hard step to take, for both parent and child.

I have always thought that I could probably get past what Joran did, if he just admitted what it was, and showed his remorse and sincerity by doing whateevr he could to ease Beth's pain. I am sure there was some accident involved in this, and that the boys were young and immature, and I understand how things can go seriously wrong, much more than what was intended. But accidents happen in a flash and you can't go back and correct them. However this coverup is done methodically, with sober minds, adult minds, intentionally and visibly causing Beth tremendous anguish, and they don't seem to care one iota. In fact they act like it humors them. That is why I am going to enjoy watching Anita suffer her pain and feel no guilt, because it is her choice and her choice alone. This is no longer 2 kids out playing and one does something to hurt the other, this is no children at play.

The pain Beth feels is from the "blows" adults who are stone sober are hitting her with in the broad daylight.

Oh, not only are they hitting her with stones, they are doing it maliciously and with as much psychological damage as they can muster to try and bring her down ie: the latest being committed over the holidays as though the holidays aren't tough enough for Beth and the Family to get through!!
That's ok Aruba, Beth will strike back on Oprah, and her words will reach millions of ears. And although the refugees laughed the last time I said this, I will say it again so you get a taste of Beth's retaliation. Beth's words will be heard by MILLIONS!!! and they will tell a friend and they will tell a friend...and so on and so on!!!
Can't wait to see Aruba's tourism numbers this year...can we say..TANKED!!!

[kkate]

Oh, not only are they hitting her with stones, they are doing it maliciously and with as much psychological damage as they can muster to try and bring her down ie: the latest being committed over the holidays as though the holidays aren't tough enough for Beth and the Family to get through!!
That's ok Aruba, Beth will strike back on Oprah, and her words will reach millions of ears. And although the refugees laughed the last time I said this, I will say it again so you get a taste of Beth's retaliation. Beth's words will be heard by MILLIONS!!! and they will tell a friend and they will tell a friend...and so on and so on!!!
Can't wait to see Aruba's tourism numbers this year...can we say..TANKED!!!

From your lips (or fingers) to God's ears

[Buckeye]

Google Translated page:

 Tonight in Pauw & Witteman: Joran van der Sloot and his parents Paul and Anita and crime reporter Peter R. de Vries over de zaak Natalee Holloway De Vries on the case of Natalee Holloway

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%2BPauw%2B%2526%2BWitteman%2B%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

[Buckeye]

Google Translated page:

 Tonight in Pauw & Witteman: Joran van der Sloot and his parents Paul and Anita and crime reporter Peter R. de Vries over de zaak Natalee Holloway De Vries on the case of Natalee Holloway

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%2BPauw%2B%2526%2BWitteman%2B%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Link without translation.  Is Robert still around??

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/

[private eye]

Google Translated page:

 Tonight in Pauw & Witteman: Joran van der Sloot and his parents Paul and Anita and crime reporter Peter R. de Vries over de zaak Natalee Holloway De Vries on the case of Natalee Holloway

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=nl&u=http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%2BPauw%2B%2526%2BWitteman%2B%2522%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG

Link without translation.  Is Robert still around??

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/

When I followed the link it translated

[Buckeye]

I am getting  Dutch at the links.

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/uitzending.php?id=274

[2NJSons_Mom]

I am getting  Dutch at the links.

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/uitzending.php?id=274

Me, too, Buckeye...and translation through Babelfish is poor.  Maybe BTGirl's friend can translate for us.  Is this a new show being broadcast by DeVries? 

[sirensong]

This is the translation I get:

Tonight in Peacock & Witteman:  Joran van of the Ditch and its parents Paul and Anita and crime reporter Godfather R. the Freeze over the affair Natalee Holloway

On 30 May 2005, the American girl Natalee Holloway disappeared without trace.  They fourth holiday on Aruba and was seen with Joran van of the Ditch for the most last time.  Shorten after Natalee's disappearance became clear that Joran her it recently had seen.  After an evening with Joran and the brothers Kalpoe, nothing is walk learnt more of her.  The mother of Natalee mobilized the American media that self poured massive on the affair.  The Arubaanse police suspects on that moment Joran and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe of it behind the disappearance to sit.  Also Paul van of the Ditch, the father of Joran, is picked up.  In total, the police arrests ten men in connection with the affair.  For want of proof, all come suspected, going out Joran included, on feet. 

In November 2007, Joran studies meanwhile in Arnhem, hits the police him again in the manacles.  On Aruba, new proof material would be found, according to it.  He becomes to Aruba overgebracht.  End of December comes prevent Joran free and is the suspicion against him lifted. 

Tonight Joran give and its parents Paul and Anita their last interview over the affair Holloway.  They choose for 'disclosure', either total openness of affairs. 

Also Godfather R. the Freeze slides tonight on.  He held self intensively busy with this affair.  For its Tv-program made he under others an extra long broadcast on Aruba.  On 7 deceber, when Joran on going out feet came, was De Freeze to guest with Peacock & Witteman.  He said convinced then to be by the involvement of Joran by the disappearance of Natalee.  Look at this conversation

[klaasend]

Doesn't look like it says a whole lot:

Vanavond in peacock & Witteman: Joran of of the ditch and are parents Paul and Anita and crime report donor peter R. freezes concerning the case Natalee Holloway

On 30 May 2005 the American little girl Natalee Holloway disappeared without a trace. Them fourth holiday on Aruba and was seen for last with Joran of of the ditch. Shortly after Natalee's disappearance became clear that Joran had seen her last. After an evening step with Joran and the brothers Kalpoe nothing more of her has been learned. The mother of Natalee mobilised the American media which paid themselves massively on the matter. Of it the arubaanse police force suspects Joran and Deepak and Satish Kalpoe at that moment behind disappearance to sit. Also Paul of of the ditch, the father of Joran, are taken up. In sum the police force ten arrests people concerning the matter. For lack of proof come all suspected, Joran incluis, on free feet.

In November 2007, meanwhile the police force studies Joran him other time in the buoys in arnhem, beats. On Aruba new proof material have been found, thus it Public Prosecution Service. He is transmitted to Aruba. By the end of December comes Joran rather and the suspicion against him has been raised.

Vanavond Joran give and are parents Paul and Anita their last interview concerning the matter Holloway. They choose for ' disclosure ' oftewel total openness of matter.

Also peter R. freezes schuift vanavond. He occupied himself intensively with this matter. For its tv-programma he made among other things an extra long retransmission on Aruba. On 7 deceber, then Joran on free feet came, were freeze at guest at peacock & Witteman. He said have persuaded then of the involvement of Joran at disappearance of Natalee.

http://pauwenwitteman.vara.nl/uitzending.php?id=274

[Nut44x4]

Oprah Winfrey lo dedica programa na Holloway

http://www.24ora.com/content/view/3450/6/#jc_allComments

Hopi ta esnan cu a pensa cu Oprah Winfrey no lo hasi un programa di sensacion entorno e caso di e desaparicion di Natalee Holloway. Durante e ultimo añanan esaki no a pasa tampoco. Sinembargo awor cu e caso a wordo sera Diaranson awor 16 di Januari Oprah Winfrey lo tin den su programa mama di Natalee Holloway y e ruman. Oprah tin un sintonia di alrededor di 23 miyon na merca y ta wordo mira den mas cu 112 pais.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tranny 

much is esnan cu owing to think cu oprah winfrey not will make one declaration of policy of sensacion entorno the caso of the desaparicion of natalee holloway. during the ultimo añanan this not owing to happen niether. sinembargo now cu the caso owing to wordo close diaranson now 16 of january oprah winfrey will have in his declaration of policy mother of natalee holloway y the brother. oprah have one sintonia of alrededor of 23 miyon at merca y is wordo see in more cu 112 country. come across

[sirensong]

There is a place to post your comments at that link.  That SOB and his parents are always saying they want the truth to be out there, but the interviewers aren't aware of enough details to catch them at the lies they tell instead of the truth.  If I had the time, I would download all the hard work from the monkeys and summarize it for them to read before the interview.  You notice, this is the last they will speak of Natalee Holloway.  Well, OVER OUR DEAD BODIES!!  You will never forget Natalee  Holloway!!

[Tamikosmom]

And the funny thing is that people are understanding, appreciative of the candor, and remarkably forgiving. In addition, the punishment is not as bad as what the fear drives us to believe, and the "guilty" feel 100% better. But it is a hard step to take, for both parent and child.

I have always thought that I could probably get past what Joran did, if he just admitted what it was, and showed his remorse and sincerity by doing whateevr he could to ease Beth's pain. I am sure there was some accident involved in this, and that the boys were young and immature, and I understand how things can go seriously wrong, much more than what was intended. But accidents happen in a flash and you can't go back and correct them. However this coverup is done methodically, with sober minds, adult minds, intentionally and visibly causing Beth tremendous anguish, and they don't seem to care one iota. In fact they act like it humors them. That is why I am going to enjoy watching Anita suffer her pain and feel no guilt, because it is her choice and her choice alone. This is no longer 2 kids out playing and one does something to hurt the other, this is no children at play.

The pain Beth feels is from the "blows" adults who are stone sober are hitting her with in the broad daylight.

PI ... I agree.

I contend there was a plan that involved wrongdoing against the person of Natalee Holloway but ... I believe that her ultimate death was not intended.  In other words ... the real crime is the coverup which was and still is being abetted by adults who are distancing Joran from the consequences of his actions.

To some extend my heart goes out to Joran Van der Sloot.  I believe that this young man is a product of his upbringing.  His parents had a God-given responsibility to teach him that in a civilized society there are legal and moral boundaries that have been established for his well being and the well being of others.  His parents also did not teach him that there are consquences that have to be faced for making personal choices to disregard those established boundaries.

Unless there is "genuine" repentence ... these untaught and unlearned lessons of life will have far reaching consequences ... consequences that reach beyond the Natalee Holloway case ... consequences which imply that "other Natalees" are at risk ... consequences which dictate that Joran will be eventually held accountable ... held accountable when he stands alone before the Judge of all judges ... to receive an ultimate ruling.  There will be no high paid attorneys ... no Daddy with connections ... no Mommy as a character witness ...

That being said ... I do  believe that an even higher judgement awaits Paulus and Anita Van der sloot.  John Kelly words rang true when he implied ... it was a parent's enabling that put all the event into motion in regards to the the Natalee Holloway case.

Janet

++++++++++++++

John Kelly
'Rita Cosby Live & Direct'
April 11, 2006

JOHN Q. KELLY, HOLLOWAY FAMILY ATTORNEY: Well, if you look at the surveillance video footage, it appears that he’s the one sitting directly next to her and tries to engage her in conversation a couple of times. And it’s sort of ironic that it’s his father who brought his underage son to a casino and left him there after he left, with access to his line of credit, to put this unfortunate chain of events in process.

You know, if Joran had never been there, not been allowed in there, because he’s underage and wasn’t accompanied by his father, the whole rest of the night wouldn’t have happened.

COSBY: You know, and, John, also, why would that be a significant—why is that in conflict to something else we’ve heard maybe from Paulus before?

KELLY: Well, he’s just claiming that, you know, he’s kept an eye on his son, you know, he’s kept him on a short leash, and, you know, his son is very well-behaved. And it turns out that he’s, you know, got him at casinos. If you’re under 18, you’re not legally even allowed in casinos, so his son was breaking the law with him enabling it.


Jossy Mansur
DANA PRETZER
July 23, 2007

Dana: One thing that makes my listeners scratch their heads so to speak and wonder, myself included and we'll talk about it again, is the fact of the underage drinking and gambling that had been going on admittedly by young van der Sloot.  Was there ever any discussion or has there ever been any discussion at least of filing some charges as far as that goes?

Jossy:  No, there hasn't been any of that. The authorities have just (inaudible) it aside, they haven't paid any attention to it then and they're not paying any attention to it now and over the past 26 months.  I haven't seen anything in the direction of trying to make some kind of statement that this is not (inaudiable) at least make some sort of a statement that this is not (inaubible) because it is a known fact that as an underage he wasn't supposed to be in the casino, much less in the company of his father. He was there, there are video tapes to prove that and still the authorities haven't done anything with regard to that specific case.