Sloot with Devries show 1/11/08 English Translation

[klaasend]

Translation by EURobert on the front page of SM:

Transscript and translation of last nights Pauw en Witteman tv-show (Please excuse me for all the grammatical and typing errors that will be in here; it’s to time-consuming to do it flawless…. Mr. Witteman’s first name is Paul so I’ll call PaulvdS: ‘Paulus’; that’s easier for me… To not get confused…)

Witteman: Good evening. Yes, Joran van der Sloot was brought back to Aruba end of november to be interrogated. That interrogation produced nothing. He was let go and the case was dismissed.
Pauw: Joran is here, together with his father Paul and with his mother Anita to have as they themselves say, their last tv-interview about this case.
Witt.: Here as well is Peter R. de Vries who has made a television-documentairy about the NH-case and the role JvdS played, and who has his doubts. He has called Joran a lier, so their is something to be discussed.
Pauw: (Looking at Joran) Yes, well.., you can confess now, so we have that behind us…? … … … … Are that the jokes you hear the most? Or what are you bothered with more Joran?
Joran: Well, I’m not really bothered by others.. But you have to keep making jokes. As you just said yourself… else you don’t get through all this.
Pauw: Do you have the feeling now that the whole matter is over now… or do you still have the feeling that if you somewhere hear a sirene… that could be for me?
Joran: Well… Not really like that but uh it’s something that you’ll never forget. It’s something… It sticks with you all the time. You best just keep going on but… It’s something you won’t easily forget. But I think in the judicial sense it now is over yes.
Pauw: Are you addressed on this often?
Paulus: Uhhmmm… No, actually not so… I’m not addressed on this often. Uhh… All-days live goes it’s normal way… And the people at Aruba have had it with this.
Witt.: Yes, they’ve had it with this… But do they believe you?
Paulus: Uuhhm… I think so.
Witt.: So if you walk the streets you don’t think: ‘Oh they look at me… Maybe indeed a murderer… Or some other creepy-person…?’
Paulus: No, I don’t have that feeling at all. No it’s on the contrary very remarkable… uhhh… such a small community as Aruba is… and as it has had very much negative effects because of all this… That they keep and kept being supportive towards us. That has uh amazed us and… it has… our hearts… strengthened… as well. (Unintelligible.)
Witt.: Were you bothered by it?
Anita: Uhhm… Well I wasn’t bothered by it so much… You know that there is talk… I mean in every community… there is talk about what has happened. Actually… uhm, uhm, it was more like… the people they were very supportive. Neighbours, people you didn’t know at all, that still came to you… We lived on Aruba for almost twenty years… And people know Joran from the time he was very small… They saw Paul or me pushing the pram… And a former teacher of him that came by who said: ‘Well this can not at all be possible… Such a sweet kid…’ So that you felt as if this story must have had a different cause… Something else is going on… And… uh, the support… Well it sounds very strange but… it was very big. Really very big.
Witt.: Well, now the case is dismissed, in the judicial sense over with.., is that the reason you agreed to sit at the table with Peter R. de Vries?
Paulus: Well yes we have allways uh, said that uh, as soon as uh, this case us no longer in court.., when uh, the OM uh, is no longer prosecuting it, we uh, are willing to give uh, another interview, in uh, a reliable tv-show. Uh… To show we have nothing to hide. (I have to skip all the ‘uhs’ here now… the’re just to much of them.) And it is so that all this publicity has had a very big impact on this case. It has even at some point taken over it. We thought that as long as this case is going on it was not right to get in the lamplights - however at some times it was necessary - because we didn’t want to frustrate this investigation in any way.
Witt.: Yes, well uhm, Peter R. de Vries is here… He’s tried before… on Aruba as well, to get in contact with you… We’ll show a little clip how that sometimes went. (Clip of PRdVries at Jorans student-house in Arnhem, confronting Joran with fabricated photo of him with Natalee.)
Pauw: Well there were, before we started this show, some jokes made at this table like: ‘Well Peter… where’s your hidden camera…’ Well that hidden camera is not here right now. Peter, you have tried to get in contact with the VanderSloot-family a couple of times to have interviews… So you didn’t just walk behind them with your hidden camera… Do you understand something of the answer of Paul van der Sloot?
PRdV: No, to be honest, I don’t understand very much of that. I think it’s strange to hear him say here, he has nothing to hide, and he didn’t want to frustrate the investigation… But than I have to notice that they did nothing to help the case. Because Joran vdS has when he was at Aruba the last weeks, and could explain all his actions / conducts, maybe could end the mysteries, maybe could shed some light on that.., he has for weeks ‘kept his molars close on top of each-other’ (dutch expression = didn’t speak). Has not spoken a word, not answered one question! That is not what PvdS says…… this nice saying ‘We have nothing to hide’. Then I think… If you are innocent… and you did nothing wrong… why don’t you just tell your story, why don’t you answer questions from the police? The fact that you just kept your jaws closed (dutch expr.) I think in these circumstances is very strange…..
Pauw: Let’s agree that somewhat later in this show on this question, this is one of your questions but you have more of them, get answers from Joran or his father or mother… But first we…
Peter: Yes…. Just give hime some time to think…..
Pauw: Yes… So you have time to find the ‘right’ answer… (LOL) But firs before we talk about this whole matter let’s give the people at home a small summary of what has all happened and what is known… (CLIP of the NH-case)
Witt.: Were you suprised that you were re-arrested?
Joran: yes, off course… I uh… hadn’t expected that at all… I thought they were joking me… when the police arrived at the door… telling me ‘you’re under arrest again’… Because yes, uh I knew they could have nothing on me… so why would they again….
Witt.: Well it was said that there were new facts, so there were new grounds to arrest you again and take you to Aruba to interrogate you.
Joran: Yes, but I knew that would be impossible… that… that…
Witt.: But what than did you think… if it was impossible, what would be the reason they arrested you again?
Joran: Well I don’t know… Maybe I thought somebody has falsely stated against me, or something bad was said about me. I don’t know… Something like that… That’s what I thought… In that direction… Maybe something like that.
Witt.: And what did it turn out to be?! Because… You got there… You were interrogated…
Joran.: Well there turned out to be abslolutely nothing. No new evidence at all… Just old statements that they looked at in a different way.
Witt.: How did the interrogation go?
Joran: Well, just as mr. De Vries said, I just kept silent. I didn’t say anything.
Witt.: Why not?
Joran: I don’t have any trust anymore in the OM at Aruba… I think that they…. they are not trying to find the truth… or trying to find out what happened in this case. They are just literally doing…. they just want somebody to hang for this…

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More to come….

Joran: … they just want somebody to hang for this… They just want for their own egos to… That they themselves come good out of this…
Witt.: Even if it is an innocent person as well…
Joran: Yes, even if it is an innocent person as well. I’m convinced of that.
Peter: Well I think it’s a bit awkward that you say the Aruban OM is not trustworthy where it was you who lied all the time?!
Joran: Yes I lied and I admitt that but there were reasons for that and you don’t know them and….
Peter: Yes! I would like to know those reasons! … To lie about what you have done where you supposedly have nothing to hide!? Why do you have to lie then, tell me that?!
Joran: Well I did that extensivly in my book allready. And you have read that so you allready know the reasons.
Peter: But you are here now to tell your story or…?!!!
Witt.: Let’s agree that we the second part of the show will give you the opportunity to do that but first let’s tell the story of the VdSloot-family according to the rules we’ve in advance agreed on with Joran namely that we first look at what actually happened. Because you say I kept my mouth shut. I didn’t tell them anything more and they didn’t come up with anything new. Were those interrogations despite that tough?
Joran: Uhmmmmm… Well in fact compared to the first ones they were not. They turned out less tough than I’d expected. There was a Dutch detective-team that told THEIR story and in fact it was just speculating what they did. The allready talked in terms of ‘a girl that was dead’, you name it, where in fact it’s just a missing girl.
Pauw: That is all in the file is it… Because in the file of the judge-commissionar it says that it has to be put first that there are strong indications that Natalee is dead.
Joran: I would like to now that know as well…
Pauw: Because there is now evidence you know of she’s dead?
Joran: (Shakes his head.)
Pauw: Well, Deepak Kalpoe had stated that ‘her death was not good’?
Witt.: One of your friends there…
Joran: Yes, that uhhh… I don’t know either how that has went/gone (?) exactly… That’s something you should ask them.
Pauw: Didn’t you ask that to them ever? Like: ‘What have you said now?’
Joran: No (Unintelligible.)
Pauw: But what did you say than?
Joran: No I never asked him that. I uh, I mean we were so often interrogated by the police and we’ve in the beginning made so many statements… And I have allready said all there is to tell. So I think also… Yes… Why do I have to make the same statements twenty times to the police? I think that… the only thing they try is to find a little difference in them…
Pauw.: What we do here Joran, is just citing the report of the Judge-commissionar who has used that at Aruba. In this way Deepak Kalpoe stated that her death was not good, has Satish Kalpoe - which is the other friend or brother, what is it exactly? …
Joran: His brother.
Pauw: … Kalpoe thinks that suspect - you - has hit her to death, you yourself supposedly have stated about the burying of Natalee Holloway? That are some hard fact because of which you suggest that indeed something IS going on?
Joran: Yes, … I, I, … It’s three years ago now and in the beginning we’ve been really treated tough by the police and made to say things that we… wouldn’t say ourselves. And yes I have the feeling they made me want to say things that weren’t true.
Pauw: Did you never say… Or have you never spoken about burying Natalee Holloway?
Joran: No I have never discussed that with the pollice.
Anita: Can I go into that for a moment?
Witt.: Off course.
Anita: Uhmmm… When Joran was arrested for the first time I was the only one who was allowed to see him. Because he was a minor and they wanted to keep out Paul because of his function. Uhm, I have spoken to Joran some times but only short, some 15 to twenty minutes. And I am his mother. I love him very dearly. And I’m really convinced he wouldn’t do anything to that girl. These first emotions, these are very important to me… to see them in him as well… For a moment I doubted him. I’ve thought… By Jingo, could an accident have happened? Has something happened? Doesn’t he want to tell… He is just having his final exams… He knows he has final-exams-celebrations… He has a girlfriend… so he’s cheated on her… His father will be very angry with him… Etc. etc…. So I very directly spoke with him and one of the confrontations… that I came over there… And I was taken by an Aruban detective… And Joran was very upset… He before that was beset for hours and hours… Words were put in his mouth… which he never said… that were put to paper but that he never signed. And they showed that to me…: ‘This is what he said!’
Pauw: Well these are maybe not the most subtle moments in this conversation but Joran, you visited a psychiatrist because you were lying all the time.
Joran: No… That was not the reason why I visited the psychiatrist. I’ve been two times to a childrens psychiatrist but that was because we had some things going on within our family.
Anita: I can explain that as well… So you can hear it from my own mouth… Paul was in Holland for the Judges-training and I had to deal with three children in my own… And Joran as many seventeen year olds… I myself work with teens… And uh… he was not the easiest one. Besides that we had problems with… I had some problems with him… That he came home way to late… Uhm… I’m rather strict… Maybe even sometimes I was a little to strict… And at a certain point after talking about it with a friend of mine, maybe it’s good when we have some consults with a youth-psychiatrist. Because I just want that he has a goal in life… that he thinks well what he wants with his life and all this ‘going out’ I just think bad about that. And at that time he started playing poker in the casino and I don’t want my son being in the casino! So I contacted I youth-psychiatrist… He wasn’t 18 yet, he still was seventeen… He went there twice, that’s correct and we had one conlusive-conversation after that. And that was it… So it was really not just about lying…
Peter: What I now think is striking is that they have no confidence what soever in the judicial authorities. where at the same time it hasn’t been a long time ago that Paul vd Sloot did his very best to work in that organisation.
Pauw: As a judge you mean…
Peter: As a judge. I think it’s striking that suddenly there is so little confidence in that organisation…
Paulus: Well look uhhhh… Mister De Vries can’t hear that good… If he would have listened carefully he would have heard that Joran said that he didn’t have any confidence in the OM (public pros.)! That’s what Joran has said. Joran didn’t talk about the judicial authorities. What you see now.., what has happened is that luckely we have judicial authorities… And we sit here again! So in the end it’s because of the judicial authorities that all has ended well.
Witt.: The judge has said: the case must be dismissed, there is to little evidence, Joran is free! Well let’s for a minute get back to that prosecution before Joran was released because Joran just said they wanted to frame me; that’s what it came to it.

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More to come…

Next bit…

Witt.: Well let’s for a minute get back to that prosecution before Joran was released because Joran just said they wanted to frame me; that’s what it turned out to be.
Joran: Well it was more like… In the beginning… the first time I was arrested they were rather tough with us: they sticked pictures of the girl to the wall… And uh, they told me as well… these two brothers… They played us off against eachother. Suggested that we had said things about eachother that were… That weren’t true all the time…
Witt.: But you all had learned the same story?
Joran: Yes.., we had agreed on… we had agreed on that… in advance…
Pauw: That you had taken her to a hotel… And that she was so unstable she had to hold on to a pillar… And I think that all three of you up to the pillar, told the same story?!
Joran: Yes but everyone had added their own things to it…
Pauw: But why did you do that? Why did you agree on making up this particular story?
Joran: Yes.., yes… Why this story? I just was scared at that moment… Those parents suddenly were at our house… And yes… I didn’t have a clue either what to do next.
Pauw: And so you decide the three of you to make up one story and this is how we’re going to tell it.
Peter: You just can tell the truth can you, when nothing happened? There’s no reason to lie is there?
Joran: Yes, I don’t think the truth sounds that good if you have to say you left a girl at the beach.
Peter: So you think a lie sounds better than the truth?
Joran: Well I didn’t know how serious this all was. I didn’t know there was a serious problem.
Peter: That’s exacly why it is so strange to lie!? When you don’t know that there is a serious problem there is no reason to lie at all!? That’s exactly the strange thing of lying here!?
Pauw: Peter… Peter you a father of a teenager, well maybe that’s a bit insipid, father of a young daughter… You can imagine you do something… leaving a girl at the beach… Let’s just tell I decently brought her back…. Such a little lie you can imagine can you?
Peter: No, I can’t imagine that Jeroen… I think you must try to see the psychology behind that. When he doesn’t know what has happened to that girl and she, after she slept away her drunkenness, simply shows up again then he is really caught lying! The fact that he nevertheless tells this lie you can interpret as: he knew he wouldn’t get caught telling this lie. Because he knew Natalee wouldn’t show up again!
Witt.: Don’t you think you look at this in a to much argumentual way? We talk about a seventeen year old boy who is confronted with the parents of girl that possibly has disappeared, maybe think that she is murdered and look at him, then you get in a panic don’t you think? In that case you may not immediatly tell them ‘Yes, I left her at the beach’.
Peter: Well I think it’s always the best option to simply tell the truth especially when you’re…
Witt.: But as a reality-reporter you must know there are exeptions to this rule…?
Peter: Yes, and most of the time they have good reasons.. But in a situation that nothing has happened.., there were no wrongdoings.., the girl herself wanted to stay there.., or get home by herself… than that’s what you say don’t you? The fact that you don’t do that AND THE THREE OF YOU IN A VERY SMART WAY MAKE UP A STORY… I think that’s suspicious.
Joran: I think it’s bad that I lied myself as well and that’s what I regret the most. If I had came forward with the truth at the beginning I think everything would have gone very different. And I think that as well is one off the reasons mister De Vries thinks the way he thinks but when you just look at the facts in this case… The timeperiod I was with this girl, being home after that, going to school the next day, and other things… What then do you try to say I have done?
Peter: If you want to discuss the facts, than tell me how you got home that night?
Joran: I was taken home by Satish…
Peter: Yes… And he denies that! He says I didn’t take him to his home at all! And first you stated that you were brought home by Deepak!!?? Not by Satish!!! Those are things as well that put you in a…..
Joran: Mister De Vries… I don’t know if you ever…
Peter: Why should they lie?
Witt.: Give him a change to answer this….
Joran: …if you ever were interrogated by the police…. in a murder case…
Peter: (Unintelligible. Something like ‘Yes I was’…)
Joran: In a murder-case?!
Peter: No… Not where I was a suspect…
Joran: The way I was interrogated was no pleasure…
Peter: And you know….
Joran: The only thing you think of is wanting to go home… So there are things you say that…. Yes… If you’re being promised you can go home… or it can help to get you home… than there are things you say that… (Unintelligible.)
Peter: (Unintelligible.)
Witt.: (Unintelligible.) Peter! Especially you know that people confess a murder that they didn’t commit. (In the past PRdV has gotten some people out of jail that indeed had confessed to committing a murder after being put under very strong pressure.)
Peter: And what does that has to do with this?
Witt.: Because in this way you can miss the truth.
Peter: But… How DID you get home?
Joran: I just told you that!?!
Peter: But those two brother denie that and from the email… from the sms- and chat-contacts that were there it shows up clearly that they didn’t bring you home.
Joran: That’s what you draw from that… But that’s not true at all… I think it indeed DOES show that.
Pauw: Back to your father if you don’t mind… You were judge-in-training I believe… And now you’re lawyer… And you have a son… and that son is interrogated, and this son tells a story of which you later find out…. Did you tell hiim yourself (to Joran)… Or how did you find out that it was a lie? You know… Dropped her off at the hotel and so on…
Joran: Yes… He heard that from the police.
Pauw: What did you think then?
Paulus: Well we were angry… So then we learned that Joran didn’t tell the truth…

Paulus: Well we were angry… So when we learned that Joran didn’t tell the truth Anita and I just were very angry at Joran.
Pauw: A girl is missing and your son is a suspect and on top of that he has lied…
Paulus: Yes, yes, for us that was incomprehensible. That, that, … not just that he lied but he kept that lie up / kept on lying for a long time. That was… yes that was incomprehensible to us. We were very angry about that at that moment.
Pauw: Did you at that point say to him: ‘as long as there is no body there is no case’?
Paulus: No, I’ve never said that. That’s a term that you drop here now but…
Pauw: It’s put in the book like this as well…
Paulus: Yes.., but that term was used by the then Public Prosecutor, uh after I uh.. had had an interview with Twan Huys (dutch tv), of which the message was… well, we’re not the victims… let’s first concentrate on this girl… Let’s try to find that girl back. And she then, the next day, didn’t pick up that message and she said “Yes, this father, this (Unintelligible.) concerned father. But, he has instructed these guys: ‘No corps no case’, and that’s the reason why they are stating this way.” That was the only thing, and that off course is the heart of the matter, that I from the start on have said, this is a missing-case! This is not a criminal case. And that in my opinion is the big mistake that the OM has made: from the start they were talking about murder, manslaughter, kidnapping, rape… when there was no evidence for that. And later everything is getting in a certain light and now two and a half years later that has been corrected, but that has been very unfortunate.
Peter: I don’t think were are here now to assume this girl is still alive?!
Witt.: We’ll get to that later. Let’s get back a minute. You worked there as a back up judge. Imagine… This is a strictly hypothetical question… Imagine Joran telling you, a confidant par excelence in this family maybe, listen dad, I did something horrible… What would you have done in that case? I would have gone with Joran to the Public Prosecutor! Did you discuss this scenario with one another?
Paulus: What do you mean?
Anita: (Unintelligible. Something like: I, as a parent? Yes)
Witt.: You would agree with that?
Anita: Yes.
Witt.: You would have informed the police against your son?
Anita: Yes.
Joran: And I uh, can confirm that…. (LOL)
Witt.: You mean they would have threatened you with that?
Joran: No I think they would have done that yes.
Paulus: There would have been no doubts about that. I btw was amazed that a lot of people think that you could be able to hide something like this. For me that would have been absolutely strange. There would have been absolutely no doubts about that.
Pauw: Have you have doubts? Was there a moment you thought maybe he did it? That maybe an accident had happened and …
Paulus: No actually I have never doubted it one time.
Anita: I did.
Paulus: I have always seen the way Joran was with girls… He was not able to do that… I’m sure of that. He would, if anything would have happened to that girl, he would have acted accordingly.
Witt.: Yes, let’s talk a minute how Joran was with girls… He’s in his book very frank about it… For him it apparently was or is easy to seduce girls… So easy that you can question yourself if it always happened with the decency that has to go with that proces in comparison with someone who has much more difficulties getting in contact with girls and is much more courteously. For example you don’t write very respectfully about Natalee…
Joran: No… I am very respectfull towards girls. I have for example never pushed a girl (can’t hear it 100% right and don’t know what he means with that). Or did something wrong to a girl.
Witt.: Well there was talk of “the bitch this” and “the bitch that”. And you hardly knew this girl and still you were intimate with her. And after that leaving her there alone? These are not things that proof you have high respects for women.
Joran: No but it symply was so that I was in the casino and I was by her girlfriends invited to go out. And one thig led to the other and she wanted to come with us as well. She invited me to dance with her. Not that I didn’t want it but….
Witt.: No, it’s about this Joran. Your father says: ‘What we know of Joran is that he doesn’t do wrong things with girls. Opposite to that is the fact that you left her at the beach, you cheated on your own girlfriend not just with Natalee but with another girl as well… That is not evidence of a principle respect you have for these women?!
Joran: Well I can not, uh, I uh, well uh… Well maybe you’re right about that. Yes.
Witt.: But returning to the father, maybe you exaggerate the ‘respectfull’ way Joran behaves towards women?
Paulus: I have always seen that Joran respectfully treated girls. And we’ve discussed that as well. So for me it’s incomprehensible that a girl that wasn’t totally well was left behind by him.
Anita: He has had two times a longer relationship and that girl visited our house, we knew her parents, we knew that girl. And he is still in contact with that girl and we are - she still calls me ‘Mam’. He was with her for nine months, that girl was sixteen… That girl has very strongly defended Joran after that. After that there were some other dates. I think, and again I work with teens, 16, 17 and 18-year olds, that is very normal behaviour for a 17 year old boy. Well there were many telephone-calls normally, like: ‘Is Joran at home?’, ‘Can I speak to Joran?’ Well at a certain point Joran had his own telephone so we didn’t keep an eye on it anymore. But I have never seen, nor at our school because, he was at my school, I did see him a lot there off course, again I’ve never seen anything of bad behaviour…
Witt.: Have you ever thought that maybe an accident had happened because…
Anita: Yes that indeed I’ve thought for a moment… Because… Joran leaving a girl behind at the beach… That’s impossible because we allways say: Walk up with a girl when you lead her out by the door… So we didn’t bring him up like that and I then was furious at him, both of us were. So for a short while I thought that something could have happened…
Witt.: With alcohol and drugs maybe? …
Anita: Maybe. Well… With drugs… no… But alcohol… Those doubts were there for a while when I was in Holland but there I thought that the girl would soon show up again. But after three days it all became very worrying.
Witt.: Okay, we now go as agreed with Peter R. de Vries about his approach and your reaction to that but first we’ll watch todays news. (Newsclip)
Pauw: Okay, Peter R. de Vries as we announced earlier

Pauw: Okay, Peter R. de Vries as we announced earlier, you’ve made a documentary which has aired two or three times. And all three times it got much attention. A lot of people watched it and that indicates that it is a case which in The Netherlands is very well followed by many and that many people are interressed in. According to you, what happened?
Peter: That would be speculating… I wasn’t there…
Pauw: But you make some assumptions that….
Peter: Well I hear the parents now make some statements like: We don’t think Joran would do such a thing, he has respect for girls… But off course many other scenario’s are possible. I don’t say he willingly and knowingly did something to Natalee because of which she deceased. Another scenario is possible in which against his will something happened as a result of which… Well she had drank, she was a vulnerable girl and she could have passed out because of that… Where upon he panicked and instead of calling the police, he called his father and maybe did something different. But okay that’s speculating, but again there are more scenario’s possible where it didn’t start out with any evildoing.
Pauw: What than makes you feel that you have to keep focusing on this investigation. Because you could say as well: ‘Okay this guy now has been so often freed of charges, and nothing has been proven….’
Peter: Well he was not declared ‘not guilty’…
Pauw: Why can’t you say I quit now or I find out what happened by talking to other people
Peter: Well you again invite me to come talk about it so in that sense you keep getting confronted with it.
Pauw: But what is it that triggers you to…
Peter: Well what triggers me is that Joran simply undoubtedly lied about certain things, where at the same time he has no legitimate reason for that. And he hasn’t stated on that very clearly and the fact that he STILL as he was arrested the last time never spoke a word. I think that’s very awkward. And I wonder if that is something his father agrees with as a person who himself wanted to be a judge. And that in such a crucial case where a girl has disappeared and where the mother of that girl is still desperate about the whereabouts of her daughter. That you then still can keep your mouth shut whereas the investigation is aimed at getting clearity on that. And on certain points he has lied and those lies were never cleared by him.
Witt.: Mister Van der Sloot?
Paulus: I agree with Joran totally. Because Joran at that moment couldn’t do anything else. And I have advised Joran to not talk because he allready has said it all. Look…..
Peter: Who says it that he has told everything by now? There simply are still some questions.
Paulus: You have to imagine such an interrogation… And I wondered about that I must say…, such a detective in fact allready has his analysis completed and next he wants confirmation of that. So he starts asking questions… And when you give an answer that doesn’t fit his analysis then there’s another question and another… And then they go back to earlier statements… And at that moment there was nothing left to gain… for nobody… when Joran had started to talk.
Pauw: But what Peter says is that your son has lied several times… and because he has lied it’s logical that the detective keeps asking questions untill he’s heard the truth. And that’s one of the tasks the OM has to do: finding the truth. And you say as a judge in training and later as a lawyer, keep your mouth shut!
Paulus: Yes, and I have explained that. He allready had told everything.
Witt.: So you believe your son 100%… He has nothing to do with the disappearence of Natalee Holloway. What does he have to lose than?
Paulus: It would just create more confusion (OMG!!!)… Look, you must see that Joran has explained it himself as well
Witt.: But he won’t say I did it when he didn’t do it?
Joran: But you as well have to see that now that they had me convined again for these 16 days I was in full isolation… I wasn’t allowed to see anyone, to do anything, read a book, have contacts with others… And that to me was very frustrating. You are powerless against this… or say leave me alone or I walk away from it…
Pauw: But how than is it possible that you knew that these two brothers were released?
Joran: Well it’s a small prison. The womensprison had their court-yard close to my cell-window and from them you hear stuff… They told me what was in the newspapers…
Peter: Okay, he says and his father agrees, I don’t talk again with the OM because everything is allready said. But that off course is the question because there are still things open about which there is no clearity yet. Among which the question how did you get home. My experiences are that and I have seen this very often, that when people further refuse to make any statements most of the time that is not because they lack confidence in the OM but because they forgot their previous lies! And in those cases it’s better to keep silent.
Joran: Well mister De Vries I hope that one day it all comes out and you have to appologize for all the things you’ve said.
Anita: Well I was interrogated by the KLPD as well, for some four hours but the questions were not directed at ‘finding the truth’ but at ‘Joran must hang’. (Edit; because Anita is a bit long-winded in what she says I compress from here on what she says.)
Peter: But I must say that it has taken quite a long time before your son was arrested the first time. And let’s not forget that it was he who came up with very strong lies. Than it’s not strange when justice dep. says: You were the last who was seen with Natalee; you tell us a story that was lied from the first to the last word, …
Anita: (Edited) But I’ve seen some of Joran’s statements and the slightest change in his statement - f.a. at a location where he pointed somewhat more to the left the he had previously done - that was considdered a new statement.
Peter: Well, that inherent to these kinds of investigations. And lets note well that you talk of somewhat more to the left or right but in Joran’s statements there is talk of MILES of differences between locations with his lies! It was all made up!
Pauw: Okay Peter let’s establish two things here. First there is no disagreement about the fact that Joran has lied. You have admitted that and admitted that that was a stupid thing to do. And if you hadn’t done that everything would have gone differently. On the other hand we’ve seen in the Netherlands that in some cases the OM has shown to have a ‘tunnelvision’.
Witt.: Because they think this suspect has to be the one that did it. And in this case there maybe were a number of different things and you address them in your book, that had they not just been directed at Joran then other things could have been investigated. Has that been done in the mean time?
Paulus: No. On the contrary… Now that the judge has decided that Joran is no longer a suspect… The day after that the OM came with the statement that he remains the person that they’re interested in. After two and a half year wherein all possible coercive means were executed. I cannot understand that. At that point in time, after for two and a half year sticking to someones tail the OM should have come to the conclusion that this person is not only no longer a suspect but he must be considerd innocent as well.
Peter: Well if you come up with these kind of theories I am very glad that you didn’t manage to become a judge!
Witt.: When you had two and a half year of investigation…
(Unintelligible.)
Joran: And it has cost over 10 million dollars… They did all kinds of things… Searches, experts, airplanes…
Pauw: What should according to you be investigated that hasn’t been investigated yet?
Paulus: Well, what actually is very strange is that there has never been made a clear profile of the girl. What kind of a girl was she? Which contacts had that girl? I never saw anywhere something very simple, that the computer of the girl was looked into. I never saw that the family of the girl was investigated. Her friends… So actually where you have to start any investigation, the people that are closest to the victim has never been done!?
Peter: You forget the people she was last seen with….
Witt.: Yes I wanted to say that as well… You begin off course with the people she was last seen with. But your suggestion what could that mean.., when you look into her surroundings? What doing so, could possibly be found about what happened on that beach?
Anita: (Edited) We know people were seen at the beach, her room-card was used, there are people who claim they have seen Natalee the day after she went missing…
Witt.: There’s a statement by a cashier who says she first saw Natalee with a man who a short time later she saw without the girl. Has there been no proper investigation into these facts?
Paulus: Well it’s even stronger… There is a videorecording supposedly of Natalee but we untill now haven’t had access to that video.
Anita: (Edited) That’s a video of the entrance of the Holliday inn… And there was something strange with the first posters that Beth Twitty hung up. It read “Little Hoody please call Big Hoody” which suggests Natalee ran away. Anyway, I was under the impression that there was another story that I gladly would have seen investigated.
Witt.: Well this is Natalee’s mother who some percieved being rather fanatic… (Clip of Beth.)
Witt.: Are you in contact with this woman?
Paulus: Our first contact with her was in the beginning… We several times had asked the police if we could get in contact with the family. The police didn’t think that was such a good idea. But some time later she showed up at our door and I invited her in. And there we had a conversation which was VERY intense. I sat with open arms there because we had a lot of sympathie for the situation she was in. And we wanted her to know that.
Anita: We felt that was very difficult… That was a very difficult moment.
Witt.: Did you keep in contact with her? She wanted to come back the next day but didn’t. She did send a television-reporter but she went to the police and gave her account of the conversation.

One more piece of text to come… Tomorrow!

Last piece of the Pauw en Witteman interview; guests: Peter R. de Vries and the family Crook!

Pauw: One thing we may still have time for. When we started we showed that Peter tried to get in contact with you (Joran) and you Peter held something in your hand namely a picture. Let’s watch for a second… Or do you have it with you?
Peter: Yes coincedently I have this picture with me (LOL)… It’s this picture… it’s a picture..
Pauw: Can you… You are experienced in this Peter… You know how to do this… Peter: (Shows photoshopped picture of Natalee and Joran in camera.) On that picture we can see.. It was taken at Natalee’s home. And apparrently it has Joran with Natalee on it. And that off course is impossible because they have never met there. And this is a picture that was made with Joran knowing it and maybe even photoshopped FOR Joran where the impression (of them being there together) willingly and knowingly was made. And then you wonder…. Well let’s say I don’t see very much sense of sympathy in there. If you do that knowing that the girl is still missing, her mother desperate, you saying you have nothing to do with it and at the same time making this kind of photoshop-humor…
Pauw: Where did you get this picture?
Peter: It was played into my hands by someone who was involved in this.
Pauw: Joran you recognize that picture?
Joran: I know that picture yes.
Pauw: You write about it in your book as well. What’s the idea behind that picture?
Joran: Yes… I didn’t do it myself but it has off course been a joke. Yes it was a joke actually. And now you (looking at Peter) bring that up this way it indeed looks very strange… But the only way to get through all this is to sometimes make jokes about it. Because for me this whole thing often is ridiculus.
Peter: Making fun about the victim?
Witt.: Who photoshopped this picture?
Joran: Yes… That is not important… I won’t mention any names here…
Witt.: But not you?
Joran: Not not by me.
Witt.: So it was sent to you…
Joran: Yes…
Witt: … over the internet or something like that?
Joran: Yes, I got it from someone I know and it was…
Peter: And he (the other guy) even was payed for that… to do that…
Witt.: By…?
Joran: (Lifts shoulders… Questioning facial expression…)
Peter: Yes… By…. He may say that…
Witt.: By you?
Joran: No! (Looking at Peter) Where did you get that idea?
Peter: Well it was mentioned in the email in which I got the picture.
(Unintelligible.)
Anita: But that person is not here at the table… We can’t ask him if it’s true what he said!?
Peter: But I think you can believe me on my word missis / mam. (LOL)
Witt.: When you’re a psychologist or play one… Somebody who killed that girl won’t fabricate a picture like that.
Peter: Well… I don’t know where you studied psychology (LOL) but …
Witt.: Just common sense…. But there are limits to the way you deal with a victim of a disappearance…
Peter: Well that’s something you can’t hold up like that…
Witt.: It’s exactly the same as you do in your…
Peter: There are very gruesome examples of people who did thing and neither afterwards sympathy with their victims…
Pauw: Okay… We’re going to conclude our conversation at the table here… What would you still want to happen in this case?
Anita: I would want that the investigation would continue… Maybe Peter can help with that… Maybe we can talk after the show… Uuhhmm… I would as well very much would see an investigation into the investigation… I don’t know if we can have that hope but that… As long as this case isn’t solved all concerned will stay under enormous pressure and Joran will continually be pointed at (Edited).
Witt.: Do you think she’s dead?
Anita: I… don’t know. I have for a very long time kept believing she was still alive and I have being played information in my hands that supports that a.o. from Renée Gielen (Edited). I would so gladly see that the other side of the story was shown as well.
Witt.: Do you think she’s dead?
Paulus: I don’t think she’s dead. I think the chance she’s still alive may be very well there.
Witt.: Do you think she’s dead?
Joran: (Smug faced) I have doubts… I think that when a person is missing for three years… That you are a very bad person seeing what is all happening, and you (meaning Natalee) still don’t come forward yourself to state you’re still alive. Or… or… If she’s still alive I think she’s held against her will…
Witt.: … held in captivity…
Joran: Yes, held in captivity.
Witt.: You will continue your study in The Netherlands… And your mother says you keep walking with this case on your shoulders… Do you agree with that?
Joran: Yes… I myself try my best to not be busy with this in my daily life…
Witt.: And that goes well?
Joran: Yes that goes OK… But it’s off cours still something you always carry with you and things have happened… I off course have spent eventually 116 days in prison in Araba… and that are all things you don’t forget so easilly. All those things were no pleasure…
Anita: … Of which I say…. A part of his imprisonment was just… because of his lies…
Witt.: We very much appreciated you wanted to come in our show. That goes for Peter R. de Vries as well… Peter have you do you think by now had enough of this case? Or will you continue to investigate…
Peter: No, this case is not over yet… I understand they would want that but as long as Natalee has not been found this case for me is not over…
Pauw: We just heard Anita say that she wants the investigation to continue…?
Anita: We want it to continue…
Anita & Peter: (Unintelligible.)
Witt.: Will you now cooperate?
Peter: Well I would gladly hear what they want… and what information they have to offer…
Joran: And if there ever will be clearity in what happened and it turns out you were wrong after all will you than apologize to me? Are you man enough for that?
Peter: What do you think?
Joran: I don’t think so.
Peter: No???!!!
(LOL)
Witt.: Well so we eventually have a great ending to this show…
Pauw: Okay we’ll agree that that happens on this table if it happens… And uh… Thanks and strength… We will report…

Have a good Sunday you all!