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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #712 1/12 - 1/16/08  (Read 236598 times)
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the big hammer
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« Reply #20 on: January 13, 2008, 09:50:48 PM »

Wine

And why does he need "wine" to talk of case?

Typically 11% - 14% alcohol by volume.  3-4 times more potent than beer at usual 3.2 measure.  And one third the strength of standard "spirits" -- whiskey, vodka, rum, scotch, etc. -- at the usual 40% alcohol by volume.   

The dependency issue on view and undeniable.

The AOD issues are not just evident, but need and demand satisfaction.  Hence the appearance of wine on the set of the show.  Would you drink alcohol during a televised interview, with presumably so much at stake?  Do you take a shot or two before a job interview, and then request "wine" to just get through the discussion?
Likely not.  Almost no one does.  Except here.

What we do not see are the neuro-chemical charges firing in the brain of sloot, as he tries to make sense of disbelieving listeners, charges engorged and sharpened through the intake of even a relatively small amount of alcohol.  But tis like kerosene to the ember.

He may not seem "drunk" -- and by legal definition, he may not be.  And maybe he could even drink a "case of beer" before getting "drunk," as he claimed to Greta. 

But he cannot control the toxic and lethal mixing of the alcohol with his synapses, and the violence inherent in male AOD issues.  Particularly in an enabled environment where his parents have obviously refused to see with their eyes the issues at play.

It is not "anger management" -- it is AOD-fueled socipatheic rage.  The kind of rage that could get someone killed. 

And did.

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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2008, 09:52:50 PM »

Just found this copy of the Nova interview with some translation:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=PpPYqk_klXc&feature=related

Thanks sirensong.

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2008, 09:53:15 PM »

Posted by CancunMole at RU (interresting to see how Joran's latest stunt has affected the way people now see him):

Just about Every decent, loving Mother will defend and protect their Child even when They know or suspect something may be askew up to a point, IMO. At some point, not only the Mother but all observers Who have watched and hoped Otherwise may at some point see something that finally suggests that it just can't be......

FWIW and I'm sure this won't be popular on this Board anymore seeing what it seemingly has become, this most recent "INFRACTION" was the last for me. I've given the Sporter every benefit of the doubt until now... but to knowingly be under the spotlight and public scrutiny and behave in such an inflammatory and disrespectful manner WITH HIS MOST STAUNCH SUPPORTERS, HIS PARENTS, PRESENT shouts out as far as I'm concerned to say just WHAT the kid really is, a

Smug, self-confident, nasty, condescending, extremely smart crime and law -wise (for a babe of 17) and now openly defiant and disrespectful to ALL authority, no one else sees these as a questionable combination? Hello, if this was your very own kid acting this way would you think and feel the same way??? How proud and supportive would you really be???
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sirensong
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« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2008, 09:59:36 PM »

Welcome!  Got it from someone at Gretawire.  I hope Peter follows Joran around just to see if he could catch him "losing it" again.  I am just stunned that he so easily lost it.  IMO he feels threatened by the fact that DeVries can play the game and not be conned.  He knows he sounded like a guilty man, with all his avoiding the questions and his slip of "being interrogated for murder" comment.  He didn't hold up and he blamed DeVries for making him look like an idiot in front of his dad.  I noticed DeVries also said he was glad Pauld didn't become a judge with his outlook on things.  That must have sent Joran to the moon LOL
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klaasend
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« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2008, 10:06:42 PM »

Wine

And why does he need "wine" to talk of case?

Typically 11% - 14% alcohol by volume.  3-4 times more potent than beer at usual 3.2 measure.  And one third the strength of standard "spirits" -- whiskey, vodka, rum, scotch, etc. -- at the usual 40% alcohol by volume.   

The dependency issue on view and undeniable.

The AOD issues are not just evident, but need and demand satisfaction.  Hence the appearance of wine on the set of the show.  Would you drink alcohol during a televised interview, with presumably so much at stake?  Do you take a shot or two before a job interview, and then request "wine" to just get through the discussion?
Likely not.  Almost no one does.  Except here.

What we do not see are the neuro-chemical charges firing in the brain of sloot, as he tries to make sense of disbelieving listeners, charges engorged and sharpened through the intake of even a relatively small amount of alcohol.  But tis like kerosene to the ember.

He may not seem "drunk" -- and by legal definition, he may not be.  And maybe he could even drink a "case of beer" before getting "drunk," as he claimed to Greta. 

But he cannot control the toxic and lethal mixing of the alcohol with his synapses, and the violence inherent in male AOD issues.  Particularly in an enabled environment where his parents have obviously refused to see with their eyes the issues at play.

It is not "anger management" -- it is AOD-fueled socipatheic rage.  The kind of rage that could get someone killed. 

And did.



Hammer - it appears Joran's little stunt has shown his true colors to many.  They now see Joran has no control over his anger.  Imagine what he would do with no cameras rolling and only a young girl saying no.
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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2008, 10:06:57 PM »

Posted by CancunMole at RU (interresting to see how Joran's latest stunt has affected the way people now see him):

Just about Every decent, loving Mother will defend and protect their Child even when They know or suspect something may be askew up to a point, IMO.


I do not agree!!!  There is nothing decent and loving about parents who will defend their child knowing that he/she is in the wrong.

Decent and loving parents assume the responsibility of training/teaching their child that there are boundaries which define right from wrong.  Decent and loving parents warn their child that there are are consequences for negative outcomes when he/she chooses to do wrong.

Janet
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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2008, 10:20:36 PM »

Just posted by Victor (Lazlo) at Scrux:

Not even a month ago the OM in Aruba "closed" the Natalee Holloway case.
The American student has been missing since May 2005.

Joran van der Sloot has been a prime suspect in this case together with two of his friends.

The decision to make it a sepot was followed due to a lack of new concrete evidence, according to head officer Hans Mos during a press conference.

(clip of Hans Mos) "That fact and the fact that the all three decided to take their right to remain silent during their detention that together has brought us to the conclusion that there simply was not enough juridical evidence to charge and prosecute them".
-end of clip-

Joran van der Sloot has been the prime suspect since 2005 in the Holloway case, he after all was the one that saw her last, and gave statements that were untrue. Later Joran admitted that he had lied.
In November he was arrested again. During his detention that lasted for two weeks Joran again took his right to remain silent.

Last night, Joran together with his parents Joran one more time gave an interview to Pauw and Witteman. At the table also crime reporter Peter de Vries, who has never made it a secret to doubt Joran's statements.

When the broadcasting had ended, the following happened:

-clip of Joran throwing wine in de Vries's face is shown-

De Vries: I think he proved himself a bad service,
Witteman: This incident is not going to contribute to him gaining any much trust.

-clip-
de Vries asking: "Tell me now how did you got home that night".
Joran: I was brought home by D.. Satish the brother of Deepak
"de Vries: But he denies that, he says I did not bring him home at all.
Joran: Yes
de Vries: and first you have stated that Deepak have brought you home, not Satish
Joran: Mr de Vries, I don't know if you...
de Vries: Why would they lie about that?
-end of clip-

Peter Plasman: I found the performance of the family van der Sloot really dramatic (as in not good).
Intervieuwer: Why?
Plasman: Because these people with this story can never win over the battle of the public opinion.

Joran van der Sloot yesterday had come with his parents to the talkshow P&W now that he is not going to be prosecuted about Natalee Holloway, right after the program things get out of hand.

-clip- :
Joran: If there ever will be clearity about what happened, and it turns out you are wrong, will you apologize, are you man enough to do that?
De Vries: What do you think?
Joran: No.
De Vries: No?
Joran nods his head that no he thinks no.
Anita starts to laugh real hard, audience is mumbling.
The interviewer then says: What a beautiful ending of such a ...!
Anita van der Sloot: Nice ending (laughing)
-end of clip-

Witteman: Everybody was shaking hands, any way, Jeroen and I were shaking hands with all our guests, and Joran stood up and I got the impression that Joran was going to shake hands with Peter.

Peter de Vries: After the broadcasting, my sender was taken of and I arrange my clothes, I was looking down, at that moment Joran had stood up and I myself had not seen that, and shortly thereafter I got an amount of wine in my face that he had thrown.
There was a full glass of wine on the table, and he had grabbed that and threw it in my face. And because I did not see that coming I got the wine in my eyes, and of course because there was alcohol in it, that itched.

-clip-
De Vries is standing with his hands for his eyes, his wife next to him and Jeroen Pauw says he should use some water for his eyes.
Anita with a sad voice: Why do you do that now, come on now, ohhh!
Wife of de Vries towards Anita: Now you have done such a great job raising that, yes, very well raised indeed.
-end of clip-

Witteman: After the broadcasting he said he was so agitated during the broadcasting because he had to explain why he had lied again and again, and he had then felt he could do this, now I have the chance, and then he did this.

de Vries: He did this out of a form of frustration, agitation. I have later talked with him, and he then apologized, and he then said that already during the broadcasting he had wanted to insult me, but that during the broadcasting he had been able to held back, but then then at the end, it came out of him, and before he knew/realised it himself he had thrown wine in my face.

-clip-
May 2005, the American Natalee Holloway is with her class on Aruba vacationing, after a night of going out she takes of with some guys, they end up at the beach, in the end she is together with Joran van der Sloot, but ever since there is no trace of Natalee.
Joran van der Sloot is a suspect and is interrogated over and over again, but last month the Aruban judge let go of the case.
-end of clip-

In the interview last night he was attacked because in the case he had taken his right to remain silent.

-clip-
de Vries: The fact that also now, the last time he was arrested he refused to answer any single question during all that time, I find that very strange, and I wonder if this is something his father agrees with, as being a man who attempted to become a judge himself. That your son, In such a crucial case in which a girl has went missing, in which the mother is desperate about the faith of her daughter, that you then keep your mouth shut, while the goal of the investigation is to obtain clearity.
-end of clip-

Interviewer: Why is it a good idea at times to take your right to remain silent?
Peter Plasman: Because if you know the prosecution does not have enough against me and you then remain silent, then there cannot come anything upon that, at least not from me. If justice does not have enough and you are questioned and give answers, you take the risk of making mistakes -regardless if you are innocent or guilty, also innocent people make mistakes- that can be interpreted wrongly, and look we now have contradicting statements, and additional incriminating material.

-clip-
Joran: And I have told everything, and I also feel, why would have have to give the police 20 statements, the only thing they want is to find differences in that.
-end of clip-

Interviewer: To take your right to remain silent in many cases is a normal strategy.
De Vries: Well I do not feel this a normal strategy, we are here not dealing with a career criminal of a drugs case, these usually standardly get the advise of their lawyers to take their right to remain silent.
We are here dealing with a guy who last saw a girl, so please give me one reason why you would not tell your story.

-clip-
Joran: I no longer have faith in the OM in Aruba, they are not after truthfinding in this case, they just want to hang someone. Just for their own ego's.
Witteman: Also when the person is innocent?
Joran: Yes also when the person is innocent I am convinced of that.
de Vries: I find it kind of strange you say that you have no trust in the OM, while you are the one who have continued to lie.
Joran: Yes I have lied, I admit that, but there are reasons for that, and those reasons you know also.
de Vries: I would like to know these reasons, to lie about something you did, while you have nothing to hide. Why would you have to lie then, please explain.
-end of clip-

Plasman: This could not go right. The questions of Peter de Vries could have been predicted in advance, it were very legitimate questions. Questions like, why remain silent if you have nothing to hide, you cannot explain that yourself, if you want to explain that you will have to let a professional do that.
Plus all the inside information that was given, especially by the father, I found the role of father especially saddening (as in worse of all) .Well, they just never should have done this (going on the show).

-clip-
Anita: Now I am his mother, I love him very much, I am convinced he would not harm a girl.
These initial emotions for me are also important to notice at him, because I did actually had doubts about him for a while.
I have thought, damn, could an accident have happened, could something have happened, does he not want to tell?
-end of clip-

Plasman: If you go to a television broadcasting, and you know in advance that the mother is going to say that she has doubted her son, then that in itself is a reason not to go.
Interviewer: So this is not so smart
Plasman: No no no
Plasman: Especially the father should have known what questions would come up, and how the mother would react upon the questions. And if he knows that if there is going to be a question did you ever doubt him and that she is going to answer yes, he should have decided not to go there.

-clip-
Witteman: You were a stand in judge
Paulus: Yes
Witteman: Imagine Joran had told you, dad I did something terrible, what would you have done?
Paulus: I would have gone with him to him to the OM.
Witteman: Did you had a talk about this?
Anita: Between us as parents? Yes, yes.
Witteman: And you agreed with that?
Anita: Yes I agreed with that fully.
Witteman: You would then have brought in your own son?
Anita: Yes
Joran: And I can confirm that also.
-end of clip-

Plasman: What I found dramatically to hear from the parents was that they said, if he had told them he had something to do with it, that they would have gone to the police, since that means as parents you are cutting of your role as a parent to your son, you then know going to your parents with your problems, asking advise, telling what happened means jail, the parents taking over the role of police officers, incredible for parents.

clip-
-Wine incident is shown again-

de Vries: I can imagine it in many ways and do not make a big deal out of this. I mean if this is the worse you have to meet in your career as a crime reporter, then I have no reason to complain.

Witteman: By a larger public I think he has become more solid in the chair of a supsect, but we will have to wait for the body of Natalee Holloway to know what really has happened.

http://www.novatv.nl/novaplayer/player169.html?bw=bb&player=wmp&id=hpe-1-0&x=11&y=6#
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texasmom
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ARUBA: It's all about Natalee...we won't give up!


« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2008, 10:26:46 PM »

Posted by CancunMole at RU (interresting to see how Joran's latest stunt has affected the way people now see him):

Just about Every decent, loving Mother will defend and protect their Child even when They know or suspect something may be askew up to a point, IMO.


I do not agree!!!  There is nothing decent and loving about parents who will defend their child knowing that he/she is in the wrong.

Decent and loving parents assume the responsibility of training/teaching their child that there are boundaries which define right from wrong.  Decent and loving parents warn their child that there are are consequences for negative outcomes when he/she chooses to do wrong.

Janet

I'm with you Janet.  Decent and loving parents make that child that may have done wrong "look them in the eye" and tell them the TRUTH.  My boys KNOW that if I say "LOOK ME IN THE EYES" and tell me the truth, that I mean business.  I have yet to find that they could do that and lie to me.  If you have raised your child in the way you should have that child will know that no matter what you will always LOVE them, BUT you will expect them to pay the consequences for their choices.   
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I stand with the girl, Natalee Holloway.

"I can look back over the past 10 years and there were no steps wasted, and there are no regrets,'' she said. "I did all I knew to do and I think that gives me greater peace now." "I've lived every parent's worst nightmare and I'm the parent that nobody wants to be," she said.

Beth Holloway, 2015 interview with Greta van Susteren
Kermit
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2008, 10:31:44 PM »


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mqdBSFwpyw
Can anyone read his lips after he throws the wine – I'm sure he is speaking Dutch.
What did he call Mr. Peter de Vries?
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Kat_Gram
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2008, 10:48:34 PM »

Well, a person can only go so far in blaming the parents. Sometimes, even the best parents will have children who do wrong.
...
There sure was alot of fussing when Joran came ot NY and Bo Dietl was in his face, wasn't there ? Alot of fussing about the statements made about Joran's behaviour by Beth. What has Beth said so far about the character of Joran that has not proved to be true ? The prior bad acts that were dismissed as untrue by the Sloots ?
.
Why can't these ppl just live their lies as quietly as a stone and quit the protestations already. No one is buying the product.
..
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robots
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« Reply #30 on: January 13, 2008, 10:50:30 PM »

the Loser once again Lost it


enough said  Cool
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Anna
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« Reply #31 on: January 13, 2008, 10:51:48 PM »

clip-
de Vries asking: "Tell me now how did you got home that night".
Joran: I was brought home by D.. Satish the brother of Deepak
"de Vries: But he denies that, he says I did not bring him home at all.
Joran: Yes
de Vries: and first you have stated that Deepak have brought you home, not Satish
Joran: Mr de Vries, I don't know if you...
de Vries: Why would they lie about that?
-end of clip-



Careful, Joran!  Almost but not quite. . . we came very close to a revealing moment there.  But then he has told so many lies, I guess he can't be expected to keep them straight.

And with the passage of time and the telling of more lies, it must become much more difficult.

I wonder how long before Joran realizes that Paulus gave him some very, very bad advice both legally and as a parent.
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Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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« Reply #32 on: January 13, 2008, 10:53:35 PM »

Hi, Robots.

 Very Happy
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« Reply #33 on: January 13, 2008, 10:59:12 PM »

Hi, Robots.

 Very Happy

hi Anna

i have said hi like 3 times and i can never find out if you you saw me saying hi

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

im lost  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing
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« Reply #34 on: January 13, 2008, 11:02:05 PM »

Hi, Robots.

 Very Happy

hi Anna

i have said hi like 3 times and i can never find out if you you saw me saying hi

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

im lost  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


I always read your posts, Robots.  Of course I see you.

.
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« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2008, 11:05:43 PM »

Hi, Robots.

 Very Happy

hi Anna

i have said hi like 3 times and i can never find out if you you saw me saying hi

 Shocked Shocked Shocked Shocked

im lost  Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing


I always read your posts, Robots.  Of course I see you.

.


 Wink Wink Wink Wink

nice to see you  Cool Wink
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« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2008, 11:07:24 PM »

I am a little bit amazed and pleasantly surprised at how
much media attention Joran's wine throwing incident has
attracted.  All of the major networks have reported
the story.  Nobody stops and asks: "who is Joran vander Sloot?"
I know that we, as Monkeys, are all concerned with Natalee's disappearance,
but this just proves that the story has not diminished in the least.
People everywhere are still waiting for answers in this case,
and the majority know where the answers lie. ARUBA and the SLOOTS.
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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2008, 11:07:48 PM »

Well, I agree that you teach a child that his actions have consequences and right from the start, not when he is larger than you are.  I also agree that parenting can only account for so much as it can also depend on what they have to work with from the get go.

I think sociopaths are born and not made but parents have to recognize they have one, not that much can be done about it.

Paulus running after Joran today was yet another example of enabling.  He should have seen after Joran's victim instead of rushing to his evil spawn's side.  Unless, of course, he was going out there to have a very serious talk with Joran or better yet, frail the daylights out of him for what he had just done.  I seriously doubt that was the case, however.

How long before Joran realizes what bad advice his father has been giving him, both legally and as a parent?  Joran should never have listend to Paulus with his no body no case nonsense.  Sure, he is out of jail but branded a criminal by most of the entire world is not exactly no case, IMO.

.
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Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2008, 11:09:27 PM »

Well, a person can only go so far in blaming the parents. Sometimes, even the best parents will have children who do wrong.
...
There sure was alot of fussing when Joran came ot NY and Bo Dietl was in his face, wasn't there ? Alot of fussing about the statements made about Joran's behaviour by Beth. What has Beth said so far about the character of Joran that has not proved to be true ? The prior bad acts that were dismissed as untrue by the Sloots ?
.
Why can't these ppl just live their lies as quietly as a stone and quit the protestations already. No one is buying the product.
..


Yes, you are correct, Kat_Gram...
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R.I.P Dear 2NJ - say hi to Peaches for us!

I expect a miracle _Peaches ~ ~ May She Rest In Peace.

SOMEONE KNOWS THE TRUTH  

None of us here just fell off the turnip truck. - Magnolia
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« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2008, 11:11:24 PM »

USA Today's coverage with photo of Joran in Aruba

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2008-01-12-vandersloot-tvappearance_N.htm?csp=34
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Murder & Crime on Aruba Summary http://tinyurl.com/2nus7c
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