Natalee Case Discussion #712 1/12 - 1/16/08

[Bearlyhere]

GOOD QUESTION!!!!! Is he s-l-o-w?

Or is he the one most likely to crack?

Or had he committed a crime, like hit and run, that he had been hiding from?

Or is Joran incapable of telling the truth?  After all he says he was not seeing anyone for lying, it was for family problems.  His mom then says he was seeing her NOT ONLY for lying.  Two different stories--and they were right there in the same room.

[Bearlyhere]

Shower time for me! If I don't get back, have a great night, monkeys!

Nite CBB, I have plenty of catching up to do.  I will not be ignoring anyone, only reading.

[Tylergal]

(I brought this post over from the other thread.)

I think that Anita actions in regards to the top of her outfit implies that she may have gotten splashed with some of that wine that Joran threw at Devries.

IMO

Janet

That's what I thought as well, because she looks at Joran as if to reprimand him, not about what he has done to DeVries, as she does not lean into Mr. DeVries, but is "shaking or fanning" the wine from her clothing while reprimanding Joran about the consequences of stains that will never come out of polyester, the stains in the Honda's carpet that had to be removed.  Red wine and red blood.  There are connections, they are red, they are hard to remove and now he has ruined her nice 100% polyester blouse.

Tyler, how could you even suggest she would be so petty as to worry about her blouse?  I think she was afraid he wrecked one of her wonderbras underneath the blouse.   

[crazybabyborg]

Before I go, this is a link to the wine throw with English subtitles.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpPYqk_klXc&NR=1

I never could get the Nova link to give me anything but audio, so if this is the same thing, I apologize for posting it again!

[texasmom]

GOOD QUESTION!!!!! Is he s-l-o-w?

Or is he the one most likely to crack?

   that's what I've thought all along....

[texasmom]

goodnight everyone!

[sirensong]

When I look at the wine throwing incident, I wonder what he was thinking.  It's not a knee-jerk reaction.  A knee-jerk reaction would be if he threw the wine at him when something was said to him that he felt was derogatory.  No one was even provoking him when he threw that wine.  It was premeditated,  Look at his face, he looks like he was thinking, "what can I do to hurt that guy?"  He takes his time with this, he does not do it immediately.

Yes, he stops for an instant and looks to the right, as he is getting up, then throws it.  It is weird, like all out of context.  He was raging inside, decided to get revenge, and carefully put the plan in action.  Like stabbing someone in the back.

[Bearlyhere]

MSNBC Analyst, Clint Van Zandt, Former FBI Profiler

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmnmnVIzmBc&feature=related

"But when someone obstensively gets away with murder, whoever that is, there's a tendency to feel you can do just about anything you want to...to include throwing wine in somebody's face.

...If somebody lies about the little things, they lie about the big things, I wonder what big thing he might be lying about?"

Subtitle:  Talk Show Tantrum  Joran Van Der Sloot Goes Ballistic on Dutch TV Show

[private eye]

Joran is indeed being punished for his acts, even while being free from a cell. His life is ever so slowly disintegrating right in front of Anita's eyes, as is the life of her family and each family member's individual life. Individually, and collectively.

Anita's soul is empty and weary from trying to cheat God so there is nothing available for her other children to help nurture their lives, there is nothing to bring color into the relationship of Anita and Paulus, joy into their home, hope for their future. Punishment is descending upon them and into them coloring their world a bleak gray. Without confession, and punishment by society, society will forever feel that Joran's debt is still current and owed, so interest will accrue, and thus no redemption and no ending date to their pain will be set. Joran's ability to be rehabilitated is being diminished as he ages and hardens due to the rejection he feels from all. Everybody has an innate need to be wanted and loved.

Deservedly, yes, but the pain and harm could be greatly diminished, hope and color could be restored to her other children's lives, rehabilitation could begin while there is a chance for Joran, and a future reestablished for Anita's family, if Anita will turn to God to find the strength and faith to do the right thing.

Anita, I don't know how you can bear to sit back and watch your family being destroyed one day at a time, realize that you and you alone control whether this process continues or not, and then decide to do nothing. Ignorant of the Lord and the Lord's ways, weak, lost soul, foolish, of little faith, impotent mother, and not caring all come to mind.

Praise the Lord that Beth has faith, Beth's Mom has faith, and they will free themselves and their family from there pain without your help. If you need proof, just look at Beth. Based upon your approach her loss has been immense compared to yours, yet she is healing, she has hope, her family has a future even though her daughter, Matt's sister, Ann's granddaughter has been taken away permanently from them in this life.

Your worst prospect is to temporarily have restricted access to your son, not nearly so severe, yet the pain you are going to inflict on your family to avoid this temporary restriction will inflict a far greater toll on you and your family than Beth's loss, and for no reason other than your ignorance of the Lord and selfishness. Your legacy to your family for generations to come. And it is apparent that you would rather satisfy your own selfish urges to have unrestricted access to Joran than to get Joran the help he needs and thus provide for him to have a future.

Your family is dependent on you and you alone to save them from this dark path they are traveling and that you have chosen for them.

[carpe noctem]

FOX & FRIENDS

JORAN WINER

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_xxB8XsyIM

[ldstlou]

When I look at the wine throwing incident, I wonder what he was thinking.  It's not a knee-jerk reaction.  A knee-jerk reaction would be if he threw the wine at him when something was said to him that he felt was derogatory.  No one was even provoking him when he threw that wine.  It was premeditated,  Look at his face, he looks like he was thinking, "what can I do to hurt that guy?"  He takes his time with this, he does not do it immediately.

Yes, he stops for an instant and looks to the right, as he is getting up, then throws it.  It is weird, like all out of context.  He was raging inside, decided to get revenge, and carefully put the plan in action.  Like stabbing someone in the back.

great point sirensong!!! I never thought of that but you are so correct!!
Not a reaction at all, it was an action. 

[ldstlou]

Joran is indeed being punished for his acts, even while being free from a cell. His life is ever so slowly disintegrating right in front of Anita's eyes, as is the life of her family and each family member's individual life. Individually, and collectively.

Anita's soul is empty and weary from trying to cheat God so there is nothing available for her other children to help nurture their lives, there is nothing to bring color into the relationship of Anita and Paulus, joy into their home, hope for their future. Punishment is descending upon them and into them coloring their world a bleak gray. Without confession, and punishment by society, society will forever feel that Joran's debt is still current and owed, so interest will accrue, and thus no redemption and no ending date to their pain will be set. Joran's ability to be rehabilitated is being diminished as he ages and hardens due to the rejection he feels from all. Everybody has an innate need to be wanted and loved.

Deservedly, yes, but the pain and harm could be greatly diminished, hope and color could be restored to her other children's lives, rehabilitation could begin while there is a chance for Joran, and a future reestablished for Anita's family, if Anita will turn to God to find the strength and faith to do the right thing.

Anita, I don't know how you can bear to sit back and watch your family being destroyed one day at a time, realize that you and you alone control whether this process continues or not, and then decide to do nothing. Ignorant of the Lord and the Lord's ways, weak, lost soul, foolish, of little faith, impotent mother, and not caring all come to mind.

Praise the Lord that Beth has faith, Beth's Mom has faith, and they will free themselves and their family from there pain without your help. If you need proof, just look at Beth. Based upon your approach her loss has been immense compared to yours, yet she is healing, she has hope, her family has a future even though her daughter, Matt's sister, Ann's granddaughter has been taken away permanently from them in this life.

Your worst prospect is to temporarily have restricted access to your son, not nearly so severe, yet the pain you are going to inflict on your family to avoid this temporary restriction will inflict a far greater toll on you and your family than Beth's loss, and for no reason other than your ignorance of the Lord and selfishness. Your legacy to your family for generations to come. And it is apparent that you would rather satisfy your own selfish urges to have unrestricted access to Joran than to get Joran the help he needs and thus provide for him to have a future.

Your family is dependent on you and you alone to save them from this dark path they are traveling and that you have chosen for them.

Great post PI. very profound, very true.

[ldstlou]

Watching the wine throwing segment again.  At the end you can see Joran hightail it out of there.  Is that Valentijn in the background?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA5_m5DS_Uw&feature=user

I don't want to be argumentative, and won't mention it again, but if you look at 36 - 38 seconds into this, you'll see Paulus and Anita both turned toward Joran reacting to what he did. Paulus is indeed smiling as the incident occurs, but was smiling prior to the thrown wine and it seems to me he just had not had time to react physically with his facial expression as he turned to DeVries. They were all shaking hands at the end and ended the interview at least outwardly, amiably. Anita too, was politely smiling and extended her hand to a staff member. Joran's thermometer was about to explode, but I do not think his parents anticipated or applauded what he did. Paulus may very well have not been happy for reasons that had nothing to do with common decency and only percieved how this would impact Joran and the family, but again, I don't think they were pleased. JMHO.

man klaas, you have such an eye!!! Good catch!!
CBB...you could be correct...and I also think the laughs could be a reaction to a stressful situation. I am one of those people who tends to laugh when people fall or stumble...l know, I know...I am warped!! lol...I know it's not funny, it's just my reaction to the stress. AND YES I HELP THEM UP AFTER!!!! lol

[ldstlou]

what does he tell greta about how he got home that night ?

 

He told her Satish picked him up because Deepak was on the computer

I don't remember why he told her he lied about that. Do you, Klaas?

Interviewer:  What was the... there was a discrepancy at some point - - I mean, there've been a lot of reports. It's sort of hard to figure out what is and what isn't... that at one point, you said Deepak gave you a ride home. And it changed to Satish. Can you explain that? Or is there not a discrepancy? 

Joran van der Sloot:  Well, there is a discrepancy there, and I did at one point say that Deepak took me home. But that was at the more point from (unintelligible) we'd always said when we were at our house talking that we'd keep... that we'd keep Satish's little brother out it as much as possible when we'd actually made up the story to say that we dropped her off at the Holiday Inn. 

Interviewer:  Why did you want to keep Satish out of it? 

Joran van der Sloot:  I didn't want to. That's what Deepak wanted. He said, yes, you know, whatever, you keep... you know, We'll keep my little brother out of it, and that... yes. That's what we agreed on.

OK, before I really call it a night I'd like to point something out.  Deepak's little brother Satish is OLDER than Joran.  Why all the false protection for Satish?

He's the weak link and/or one of the k2 brother's had to stay out of jail to help Momma?

[ldstlou]

When I look at the wine throwing incident, I wonder what he was thinking.  It's not a knee-jerk reaction.  A knee-jerk reaction would be if he threw the wine at him when something was said to him that he felt was derogatory.  No one was even provoking him when he threw that wine.  It was premeditated,  Look at his face, he looks like he was thinking, "what can I do to hurt that guy?"  He takes his time with this, he does not do it immediately.

oops Bearly, this was your post...so sorry!! great post!!!

[ldstlou]

Had to do it the hard way, capturing in frames...lolol 

roflmao!!! good capture Klaas!!!!! coffee all over the screen now!!!

[Bearlyhere]

When I look at the wine throwing incident, I wonder what he was thinking.  It's not a knee-jerk reaction.  A knee-jerk reaction would be if he threw the wine at him when something was said to him that he felt was derogatory.  No one was even provoking him when he threw that wine.  It was premeditated,  Look at his face, he looks like he was thinking, "what can I do to hurt that guy?"  He takes his time with this, he does not do it immediately.

Yes, he stops for an instant and looks to the right, as he is getting up, then throws it.  It is weird, like all out of context.  He was raging inside, decided to get revenge, and carefully put the plan in action.  Like stabbing someone in the back.

great point sirensong!!! I never thought of that but you are so correct!!
Not a reaction at all, it was an action. 

Thanks ld (it was our post). 

I wouldn't advise anyone to sign up for the "Aruban 2-Step Anger Management Program."

[Bearlyhere]

Had to do it the hard way, capturing in frames...lolol 

roflmao!!! good capture Klaas!!!!! coffee all over the screen now!!!

Yep, I told you she was worried about her wonderbra.  I wonder what happens to it when exposed to red wine?

[Bearlyhere]

FOX & FRIENDS

JORAN WINER

http://youtube.com/watch?v=S_xxB8XsyIM

Well, I suppose Jerry Springer will want to sign him up now. 

[igsigs]

I think the wine toss was planned by Joran, but only in the last few minutes. His stress level had been building during the discussion - for sure - but the show was headed for a restrained ending. Joran felt he needed to even the score by putting DeVries on the spot with his what-if-i-am-innocent question. DeVries did not take that question seriously and brushed it off. The moderator makes a quip and everybody laughs - show over. IMO the laughter appeared to be a reaction to the end of the tension, end of the show. Everyone is relieved, starts relaxing and the participants begin to mix. But Joran is not everyone, misinterprets the social reality, stiffens and plans. Like an infant throwing a bottle, Joran reaches for whatever is closest and throws it. He HAD to do it. He HAD to act to relieve his tension. I don't see him changing anytime soon.