Natalee Case Discussion #714 1/20 - 1/25/08

[Lala'sMom]

Latest update from Persistence:

Special Notice:
By John Silvetti-
The original search area surveyed by the R/V Persistence was selected based on numerous pieces of information provided by Dave Holloway, Tim Miller, investigations, interrogations, depositions and other information from local authorities. After compiling and reviewing the information, the search area was selected by Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti. Upon completion of the sonar runs in this area, 65 ROV dives were performed by Offshore Innovative Solutions (OIS) on targets identified by sonar. Divers from the Aruban Police Diving Division and Underwater Expeditions made several dives and retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Several targets in this first survey grid yet remain to be investigated by ROV which will occur in approximately one week when ROV dive operations recommence.

Selection of the next area, the “Extended Search Area”, was based on one single piece of information, a reported confession by one of the three suspects. This confession, as relayed to the survey team, has some credence. It involves the same type of disposal scenario, but better defines the search area. This information in combination with the weather patterns observed by the survey team since our arrival on December 15th left only one boundary to define. The team needed to observe the island from offshore on a small vessel at night to determine this boundary. Sounds easy….huh?

After 2 unsuccessful attempts using a local vessel due to fuel and mechanical problems, the decision was made to utilize the R/V Persistence’s Rescue Boat, the “Avon”. The Avon is a 16’ center console inflatable vessel powered by a 70 hp Daihatsu engine. Prior to dark, the Avon was launched from the Persistence and piloted to the Holiday Inn Pier by Captain Jim Graves. Later that evening, John Silvetti boarded the vessel with Capt. Graves, transited to the start point, and commenced an offshore run documenting the time and vessel position with a WAAS enabled hand-held GPS system. At one mile out, radio communications were confirmed with the Persistence. At six miles out, radio communications were again confirmed along with spot light identification as the Avon crossed astern of the Persistence. It was somewhere shortly after this point that Murphy boarded the Avon!

The weather was very similar to the recorded weather of late May, 2005. The seas were running 4-6’ with swells of 6-8’. It was rough for an Avon! Upon reaching the final destination point while documenting the final position, the engine sputtered and stalled. It never started again! Approximately 30 minutes of effort to restart the engine was fruitless. I believe that is when we noticed that we were taking on water! HELLO HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

As we watched Aruba disappear over the horizon, contemplating our broken engine, a vessel taking on water and the fact that we are about to enact the emergency contingencies of our procedures, Capt. Graves stated, “ I am sure glad that it is so dark!” I took the bait. Why? Because I believe we would be scared to death if we could see how big these waves are! Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 16 ..over! Silence. Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 16 ..over! Five minutes of silence. Back up frequency. Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 09 ..over! Five minutes of silence. VHF comms failure. Ya gotta love Murphy.

Thanks to the support of Coast Guard Curacao, Aruban Port Authority and some unbelievable cell phone coverage, the Persistence plucked us out of the water approximately 16 miles offshore Aruba. We had acquired a tremendous amount of information to determine the last boundary and learned a few lessons:

1) Never use your lower back to absorb the shock of pounding seas when you are fat and out of shape.
2) Never get fat and out of shape.
3) No matter how complete and thorough your safety procedures are, never count Murphy out!

-John Silvetti

Wow!  I would have died on the spot from fear...I am not a water person.  God bless this group of people. BTW did anyone notice the above highlight? Okay, I am going back to my thread...sorry, I am wired on coffee this morning.

[private eye]

Latest update from Persistence:

Special Notice:
By John Silvetti-
The original search area surveyed by the R/V Persistence was selected based on numerous pieces of information provided by Dave Holloway, Tim Miller, investigations, interrogations, depositions and other information from local authorities. After compiling and reviewing the information, the search area was selected by Louis Schaefer and John Silvetti. Upon completion of the sonar runs in this area, 65 ROV dives were performed by Offshore Innovative Solutions (OIS) on targets identified by sonar. Divers from the Aruban Police Diving Division and Underwater Expeditions made several dives and retrieved samples which were delivered for analysis. Several targets in this first survey grid yet remain to be investigated by ROV which will occur in approximately one week when ROV dive operations recommence.

Selection of the next area, the “Extended Search Area”, was based on one single piece of information, a reported confession by one of the three suspects. This confession, as relayed to the survey team, has some credence. It involves the same type of disposal scenario, but better defines the search area. This information in combination with the weather patterns observed by the survey team since our arrival on December 15th left only one boundary to define. The team needed to observe the island from offshore on a small vessel at night to determine this boundary. Sounds easy….huh?

After 2 unsuccessful attempts using a local vessel due to fuel and mechanical problems, the decision was made to utilize the R/V Persistence’s Rescue Boat, the “Avon”. The Avon is a 16’ center console inflatable vessel powered by a 70 hp Daihatsu engine. Prior to dark, the Avon was launched from the Persistence and piloted to the Holiday Inn Pier by Captain Jim Graves. Later that evening, John Silvetti boarded the vessel with Capt. Graves, transited to the start point, and commenced an offshore run documenting the time and vessel position with a WAAS enabled hand-held GPS system. At one mile out, radio communications were confirmed with the Persistence. At six miles out, radio communications were again confirmed along with spot light identification as the Avon crossed astern of the Persistence. It was somewhere shortly after this point that Murphy boarded the Avon!

The weather was very similar to the recorded weather of late May, 2005. The seas were running 4-6’ with swells of 6-8’. It was rough for an Avon! Upon reaching the final destination point while documenting the final position, the engine sputtered and stalled. It never started again! Approximately 30 minutes of effort to restart the engine was fruitless. I believe that is when we noticed that we were taking on water! HELLO HOUSTON, WE HAVE A PROBLEM!

As we watched Aruba disappear over the horizon, contemplating our broken engine, a vessel taking on water and the fact that we are about to enact the emergency contingencies of our procedures, Capt. Graves stated, “ I am sure glad that it is so dark!” I took the bait. Why? Because I believe we would be scared to death if we could see how big these waves are! Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 16 ..over! Silence. Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 16 ..over! Five minutes of silence. Back up frequency. Persistence…Persistence….this is Avon on channel 09 ..over! Five minutes of silence. VHF comms failure. Ya gotta love Murphy.

Thanks to the support of Coast Guard Curacao, Aruban Port Authority and some unbelievable cell phone coverage, the Persistence plucked us out of the water approximately 16 miles offshore Aruba. We had acquired a tremendous amount of information to determine the last boundary and learned a few lessons:

1) Never use your lower back to absorb the shock of pounding seas when you are fat and out of shape.
2) Never get fat and out of shape.
3) No matter how complete and thorough your safety procedures are, never count Murphy out!

-John Silvetti

I think the lesson you have taught all of us is that a hero is someone who comes thru for a stranger, investing his own personal safety, money, time, and assets to help them in a time of crisis. The same applies to the crew and Tim and Co. Who needs to believe in Super Power Heroes when there are real live people like all of you living the life of heroes!!!!!!!! You all don't just talk the walk, you actually walk the talk!!! During the holidays I had the pleasure to visit with Beth and first and foremost on her mind was this mission, which I really didn't understand, and what she said over and over was  that this was going to be the "A Team" and that if it can be done, they will get it done. Unassuming, down to earth men with "A Team" proweress, Tim and Co included by all means.

Well, though I didn't know then, I do know now, and I agree. I am impressed to say the least and grateful. And I can assure you I am understating Beth's respect and appreciation of all of you she relayed to all of her firends during that visit.

[private eye]

I can't imagine that it would be hard to find him if they wanted to interview him. Are they trying to interview him and can't find him? If they can't then that is a problem.

[msmarple]

FWIT - From my letter writing, I know that the U.S. consulate for the ABC islands is on Curaçao. From that, I infer that most U.S. government activity for the islands is based via Curaçao.

IIRC, Curaçao is the largest (geographic & population) of the ABC islands.

[BUCKSHOT]

A few things, additionally:

(1) Jossy Mansur - It seems like he has good intentions. His family has some shady connections. He runs the largest paper in Aruba. He claims to have lots of information on Joran and family that he intends to expose. He has not done this as far as I know.  Is this just a case of not shitting where you eat, as they say.  If he exposed information about the Sloots, and their corrupted connections, and/or corrupt officials, he may be asking for trouble as he would certainly become public enemy #1 on the island and be a target for those who wish to suppress his knowledge.

(2) Peter de Vries - This guy will turn out to be key, in my opinion.  He is an investigative reporter from the Netherlands.  This could make his career, if were able to keep up his persistence (no pun intended) of putting continued heat on the sloot family and those who are corrupt, and up to their eyeballs, on the island.  Also, he has a vendetta against Joran, especially after the wine throwing incident.  I do not think he will aknowlege publicly, though, how much he truly hates Joran.  Instead, He will quietly remain their shadow, as he will continue to follow them like a shadow.  This will make his career if he should be able to assist in solving this case, via a major breakthrough, which may come as a result of someone letting down their guard.

It will be nearly impossible to get real helpful information from that island as anyone, who may step up, will become public enemy #1, and might as well wear a bullseye target on their back.  It is a shame that someone, from the island and in the know, could not be convinced to relocate from the island and expose all of the information that is known, with regard to corruption and the ongoing NH investigation.  Antonio Carlo, at one point, seemd like he wanted to step forward.  Gerald Dompig, to me, seems like a decent candidate.  Offer him millions of dollars in the form of a tell-all book deal, allow him to retire to a different country, and lots of information, for sure, could be obtained as he surely witnessed secret evidence, interrogations, and first hand corruption by those investigating the disappearance. Just an idea...

[crazybabyborg]

The update from the Persistence says they had "unbelievable" cell phone coverage. I find that interesting when applied to the night Natalee went missing.

[private eye]

Remember the DEA agent is the one that drove to that gas station tomeet with Charles Croes...why the gas station?  Why not the lobby of the hotel?  He is also the one that asked Beth to remain in the car at the Sloots.

I called the FBI, and I called a couple of offices, the titles of which I honestly can't remember on that Monday when Beth got the call and was driving to Birmingham, one of them being an island in the region close to Aruba, another in Washington, Birmingham, etc and I was told that there was a US agent of some sort on the island. He wasn't normally stationed there, but he happened to be there. So I always assumed the DEA agent was to whom they were referring. Why is he suspect?

I don't think he's suspect as you put it...I have just always said that to have a DEA agent on the island at that time and for those in the know to know he's there is not because he was on vacation...

I have read and listen to so much since then that I don't trust my memory from what I was told then to what was heard on the news or read here. I just remember that an agent was there, and he would assist Beth.

[private eye]

FWIT - From my letter writing, I know that the U.S. consulate for the ABC islands is on Curaçao. From that, I infer that most U.S. government activity for the islands is based via Curaçao.

IIRC, Curaçao is the largest (geographic & population) of the ABC islands.

And I think that is the office to whom I was I referred.

[private eye]

I need to get to work before someone comes looking for me:))))))

[BUCKSHOT]

The update from the Persistence says they had "unbelievable" cell phone coverage. I find that interesting when applied to the night Natalee went missing.

Charles Croes ran the company who handled cell phones, and cell phone coverage, on the island.  He could easily provide exact details as to the cell phone usage by the suspected parties, as it relates to NH's disappearance, yet he has not.  Without knowing for certain, I can only surmise that those investigating, or involved in the crime, have made sure that definitive records have not made it to those, who truly seek to find answers.  That, in my opinion, is not right.  Therefore, I am of the opinion that he has been less than honest and completely forthcoming, with regard to his specific knowledge of the events that transpired that evening.  As another poster mentioned, he may have been a tad helpful at first, as he did not understand the ramifications of the case initially.  But as time passed (a few days) and others, who sought to suppress and cover-up, became involved, his loyalty shifted to them and against Beth, Dave, Jug, and others.  Verizon, AT&T, etc in the United States would never think, for one minute, to protect a criminal, involved in a crime !!! They would act professionally, and unbiased, and hand over subpoened information, so as to help the police or assigned investigative team in solving a crime with useful information, which they possessed.  

[msmarple]

BUCKSHOT - I think AtlantMetro explained that CCroes is basically a franchisee (sp?) and as such, would not have access to that information, or the authority to release it to anyone. Rather, the franchising company would have that responsibility.

I hope I am not mis-stating the case, but that's the way I remember it.

[BUCKSHOT]

BUCKSHOT - I think AtlantMetro explained that CCroes is basically a franchisee (sp?) and as such, would not have access to that information, or the authority to release it to anyone. Rather, the franchising company would have that responsibility.

I hope I am not mis-stating the case, but that's the way I remember it.

OK - But it still does not change my position that he is not completely forthcoming with information that he has regarding the case. 

The blame, then, should be equally shared with the franchising company because they have surely not put on the table (for the world to see) records from that evening.

Charles Croes could certainly have facilitated or assisted in that happening.  Those, who sought to obstruct the investigation, surely knew his position as a possible liason and made sure that this information was kept for private viewers only.

[crazybabyborg]

The update from the Persistence says they had "unbelievable" cell phone coverage. I find that interesting when applied to the night Natalee went missing.

Charles Croes ran the company who handled cell phones, and cell phone coverage, on the island. He could easily provide exact details as to the cell phone usage by the suspected parties, as it relates to NH's disappearance, yet he has not.  Without knowing for certain, I can only surmise that those investigating, or involved in the crime, have made sure that definitive records have not made it to those, who truly seek to find answers.  That, in my opinion, is not right.  Therefore, I am of the opinion that he has been less than honest and completely forthcoming, with regard to his specific knowledge of the events that transpired that evening.  As another poster mentioned, he may have been a tad helpful at first, as he did not understand the ramifications of the case initially.  But as time passed (a few days) and others, who sought to suppress and cover-up, became involved, his loyalty shifted to them and against Beth, Dave, Jug, and others.  Verizon, AT&T, etc in the United States would never think, for one minute, to protect a criminal, involved in a crime !!! They would act professionally, and unbiased, and hand over subpoened information, so as to help the police or assigned investigative team in solving a crime with useful information, which they possessed.  

When Hans Mos first was interviewed after the re-arrests, he indicated that cell phone locations were not stacking up to where the suspects said they were. There was speculation on the forum as to the distance at sea, cell phone coverage was possible. It's quite plausible that persons on a boat who were disposing of a body, would be in contact with someone onshore and let them know it was done, if coverage was possible, and I hoped that was information Hans might have. There were some adamant opinions on the forum that cell phone coverage would be nonexistent at any substantial distance.

[Lala'sMom]

Paul van der Sloot's Changing Story

Thursday , June 30, 2005

FOX NEWS

This is a partial transcript from "On the Record," June 29, 2005, that has been edited for clarity.

CHARLES CROES, TALKED TO DUTCH SUSPECT: A major friend of mine called me up. He was working with Natalee's mom to help them find Natalee.

VAN SUSTEREN: Why would he call you? What is your occupation that would be a reason he would call you?

C. CROES: Well, I have a sail rental company. And there was apparently a phone call made. And he was calling me betting or hoping that the phone call was made from one of our phones, and so that's why he called me.

VAN SUSTEREN: About what time did he call you?

C. CROES: He called me at 11:30.

VAN SUSTEREN: What did he say to you?

C. CROES: He told me that he needed my help. And I asked him what it was about. And he told me that it had to do something with a cell phone. And I didn't relate it to anything but work at that point.

And then he said, "There is a possibility that a phone call was made using one of our phones." And I said, "OK." And he said, "It's very, very important." I said, "Fine," and I asked him to go into further details, and he did. And then I made arrangements to go see him.

VAN SUSTEREN: When you got to the gas station, did you talk to Beth?

C. CROES: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: Did Beth have any idea at that point, as far as you knew, who her daughter had been seen with or who she had last been known to be with?

C. CROES: Yes.

VAN SUSTEREN: What did she tell you?

C. CROES: Specifically, she told me that her daughter went to Carlos and Charlie's, and that, while there, she had met up with a young guy and asked him to take her home, and that she got into a small silver or gray car that had a large exhaust on the back and tinted windows, and had left.


Just for FYI.

[crazybabyborg]

Klaas? Please check Musings.  TIA!

[Lala'sMom]

Charles Croes
http://justrepublic.wordpress.com/2006/05/18/charles-croes-how-did-he-know/

[Helen Back]

The update from the Persistence says they had "unbelievable" cell phone coverage. I find that interesting when applied to the night Natalee went missing.

Good morning monkeys! 

CBB, I had the same thought while reading the latest Persistence update.  Unbelievable cell phone coverage and loved reading about the GPS being utilized to identify a location.  Sounds like the search team has good information on which to base their efforts, including the CONFESSION of one of the suspects.  The CONFESSION that never happened.  It also sounds as if there is a great deal of cooperation with Aruban officials at this point.

NO wonder the nutbags are out in full force.  Someone is very, very nervous!

To the search team of the Persistence......
You are all heroes in my book.  One day, I want a T-shirt with a pic of the whole team.  In the meantime, I wish you smooth sailing and continued success!

 

[Lala'sMom]

BTW, I know there was never a phone call placed by Natalee...I am just posting the info for those that might wish to refresh their memories...like me.

[msmarple]

BUCKSHOT - I think AtlantMetro explained that CCroes is basically a franchisee (sp?) and as such, would not have access to that information, or the authority to release it to anyone. Rather, the franchising company would have that responsibility.

I hope I am not mis-stating the case, but that's the way I remember it.

OK - But it still does not change my position that he is not completely forthcoming with information that he has regarding the case. 

The blame, then, should be equally shared with the franchising company because they have surely not put on the table (for the world to see) records from that evening.

Charles Croes could certainly have facilitated or assisted in that happening.  Those, who sought to obstruct the investigation, surely knew his position as a possible liason and made sure that this information was kept for private viewers only.

I am not disagreeing about Croes; he seems creepy even by Aruba standards. Just saying that he probably would not have been in a position to release call information to anyone.

Is the company Setar? (I think klaas would know.) It's a U.S. company, I think. I have a feeling at least some phone records were requested/subpoenaed.

[crazybabyborg]

The update from the Persistence says they had "unbelievable" cell phone coverage. I find that interesting when applied to the night Natalee went missing.

Good morning monkeys! 

CBB, I had the same thought while reading the latest Persistence update.  Unbelievable cell phone coverage and loved reading about the GPS being utilized to identify a location.  Sounds like the search team has good information on which to base their efforts, including the CONFESSION of one of the suspects.  The CONFESSION that never happened.  It also sounds as if there is a great deal of cooperation with Aruban officials at this point.

NO wonder the nutbags are out in full force.  Someone is very, very nervous!

To the search team of the Persistence......
You are all heroes in my book.  One day, I want a T-shirt with a pic of the whole team.  In the meantime, I wish you smooth sailing and continued success!

 

Yes. They are real heroes, and the update is very encouraging. God Bless and keep them Safe!