Natalee Case Discussion #714 1/20 - 1/25/08

[Altruist]

Charles Croes interview....not sure if it's all there.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k78M65rFEPQ

Let me be more specific - Greta should show the WHOLE thing - without the editing... she said they spoke for some time but it wasn't that long of an interview and she said some things that he shared could not be shown so as not to jeopardize the case... well, there "aint' no case" so I'd like to see it.  I bet we could come up with a few discrepancies.  Might shed light on some things.  Just throwing it out there as something that hasn't been investigated.  Maybe Beth can get a copy of it?

If Fox & Greta didn't provide an unedited copy of this interview with Charles Croes than it would be a prudent move for Dr. Phil's legal team to get a copy of it subpeona'd all legal, clean & available for the case in chief.  Greta should be ashamed of herself if she didn't make sure that Beth & Dave Holloway had a copy of that interview considering what the guy posted on the internet within 4 days of this horror show beginning.  His interview would be very, very important & you could SO TELL THE INTERVIEW WAS SERIOUSLY EDITED.

[Dugga]

You folks won't want to miss Dana's commentary for Friday, January 25th (which the system will publish in just over an hour):

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2008/01/25/scared-monkeys-radio-daily-commentary-friday-january-25-2008-aruba-makes-you-want-to-puke/

Classic Dana Pretzer! 

[klaasend]

You folks won't want to miss Dana's commentary for Friday, January 25th (which the system will publish in just over an hour):

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2008/01/25/scared-monkeys-radio-daily-commentary-friday-january-25-2008-aruba-makes-you-want-to-puke/

Classic Dana Pretzer! 

Thanks for the heads up Dugga!  Can't wait to listen!

[hotping]

You folks won't want to miss Dana's commentary for Friday, January 25th (which the system will publish in just over an hour):

http://scaredmonkeysradio.com/2008/01/25/scared-monkeys-radio-daily-commentary-friday-january-25-2008-aruba-makes-you-want-to-puke/

Classic Dana Pretzer! 

Thanks Dugga! I'll Be There!

[BUCKSHOT]

Charles Croes was present during the confrontation with Joran, Deepak, and Paulus on the very first night. I am certain that he understood the language spoken, unlike the Americans present as they may have only understood bits and pieces.

Charles Croes is involved with the local cell phone provider. Although it may be part of a larger franchised company, he certainly represents a liason to that company.  Therefore, it can be ascertained that he could obtain cell phone communication records for that specific evening/early morning. Don't ya think??

He spoke to an "important friend" and met this person at a gas station, in the wee hours of the night and had separation from Beth and Jug, while they reviewed the casino tapes.

Yet....no one has seen a statement from him regarding his encounters with both families (VDS and Beth/Jug) that evening.  Nor has anyone seen the cell phone records from that evening/early morning and the days thereafter.  Unfortunately, in this investigation, nothing can be taken at face value.  His statement would likely be manipulated (and with stains from a spilled bowl of corn flakes) and the cell phone records could probably not be obtained due to a major computer crash, which lasted from May 28, 2005 through June 28, 2005 and can be verified by members of the Aruban government.

There is no doubt, in looking back with 20/20 hindsight that the VDS family was tipped off that a hurricane was heading their way.  Joran, Deepak, and Paulus were in major cover-up mode at that time.  Paulus was not sleeping, nor was his cell phone accidentally crazy-glued to his hand as he answered the door ten minutes after the first knock.  Deepak and Joran were not hitting up the casinos as indicated by their "deer in headlights" demeanor and dress attire of sweaty, dirty clothes.

Eric Summers fits into this puzzle in some way, shape, or form as well.  I know very limited information about him.  However, he reprewsents one of three scenarios in my mind: (a) he served as a liason for the family as they arrived. He put them in touch with the "right people" and assisted them as needed.  This scenario, according to what we have seen and heard from Beth did not occur.  He participated on the first night only and did not give a statement(PV) to the Aruban authorities, nor is he too concerned to make sure an accurate statement, which may actually hep the family and the case, is on record. (b) he served as a liason for the family as they arrived. He put them in touch with the "right people", then immediately removed himself from the situation.  This would indicate that he was there, covertly, and could not allow himself to be too visible on the island.  He only acted, out of kindness, to a fellow American.  (c) he used his DEA / FBI status, gained the trust of the family, purposefully steered them in the wrong direction, and stalled them for time as the hurrican descended quickly on the VDS.  This would indicate, if true, that he was on the dark side, so to speak.

Is it possible to locate Eric Summers, himself, and allow him to narrate his story and role in the first few days of the case, OR have the FBI/DEA confirm and/or deny his status at that time.  Should not be too hard to determine which side of the fence he is on...

Moving on, I have said this before and so have others... It is truly a shame that NH's family only sought to find their daughter, dead or alive, and make sure those responsible were held accountable, as was accustomed and standard in their home country.  I analogize their search as being the gerbil in a maze, where cheese is at the end of that maze.  As they make the right turn and find themselves on the right path, someone on the dark side lifts them up by the tail and places them back at start.  Aruba will do anything possible to ensure that the cheese is never obtained.  They will allow their economy to suffer a major decline, only to protect a select few.  2008: NH's family probably does not care at this point if anyone is even punished for their daughter's disappearance, and would be ecstatic if they found part of her body, only to bring home, bury, and lay(respectfully) to rest !!!

[robots]

one word

landfill

[Tamikosmom]

The trolls must have gotten to Alberto Groeneveldt ... the trolls who are obviously working on a misinformation campaign which will shift the focus of attention off of Joran and Paulus and ... shift the focus of attention onto the family of Natalee Holloway.

Beth shares in LOVING NATALEE ... for seven hours immediately following Jug and her arrival on the Island of Aruba ... Alberto Groeneveldt was on their side.  The assistance that Alberto Groeneveldt and Claudio Stamper provided was nothing short of a miracle.

According to Beth in LOVING NATALEE ... two of the handlers (Alberto Groeneveldt and  Claudio Stamper) left for a period of time following the 1:30 AM gas station meeting with Charles Croes ... a period of time when Jug and her were viewing casino videos.  In this period of time ... the handlers were able to find out Joran's last name ... locate the VDS' residence.  At the VDS' residence Deepak's vehicle was observed inside the gate and ... the tag number was recorded.

Janet

++++++++++

Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE

Page 44

Back at the Holiday Inn we again ask management about watching the video of their blackjack tables to see what Joran looks like.  This time the hotel manger finds someone to show us the tapes.  Jug and I will view the tapes while the handlers volunteer to hit the streets to see what they can learn.

It takes about an hour to facilitate seeing the security footage.  Scrolling through the videos we see images of Jug's nephew Thomas, and immediately call him.

Over the phone we tell him what we see.  He begins to describe Joran and where he is sitting.  And bingo, there he is.  Now we have a mental picture of him to  go with his first name.

Excited, Jug and I run down the stairs from the casino toward the lobby and almost collide with the handlers, Alberto and Claudio, as they run into the lobby toward the front desk.  Alberto is waving a piece of paper.  "We have him!  We have him and the car!"  The two of them are as exhilarated as we are.  They have Joran's last name.  It's van der Sloot.  And they have his address.

Alberto and Claudio went to the location, looked over the fences, and there it was.  A silver-gray Honda with big tailpipes and fancy features, just like the students had described.  They wrote down the license plat number and the address.  On the piece of paper is everything we need: the name of Joran van der Sloot, his address, and the tag number.

The handlers assistance to Jug and Beth Twitty did not end with the finding out of Joran's last name ... locating Joran's Aruban residence ... observing Deepak's vehicle and ... recording the tag number.

In LOVING NATALEE ... Beth shares that Alberto Groeneveldt and Claudio Stamper remained with the Twitty party until dawn and ... that assistance continued in the following days.

Jug's friend ... viet vet ... claims that it was not until days later that the "powers that be" in an obvious coverup put pressure on those Arubans where were assisting the family.   Julia Renfro and ... Charles Croes were persuaded within days but ... Alberto and Claudio remained loyal.

Janet

+++++++++++++

Beth Holloway
LOVING NATALEE
 
Page 44-45
We need to go back to the house with the police, I say, thinking that I am in America and that we need to at least try to follow some kind of law enforcement protocol. We haven't located any police yet, with the solid information (the name, address, and tag number) the handlers decide to take us to the North police station. It's the closest one of the Van der Sloots residence.


Page 48
The DEA agent arrives, and all the men gather in a circle in the dirt and gravel driveway area under a streetlight in front of the van der Sloot home. Alberto and Caudio go back and forth between the group and my car to update me on the conversation.


Page 61
Alberto takes complete charge and initiates media contacts for us. This consumes the rest of today. He takes us to all the media outlets to get the message out about Natalee's disappearance. Spreading the word is our focus, and even with Alberto's guidance it's quite trying, because everything takes a very long time to accomplish. Alberto and Caudio suggest we go to the Aruban newspaper, printed in Papiamento and Dutch, called Diario. ... Alberto leads us into the Diario office.


Page 64
Alberto leads the way again and drives Jug, Jodi and me to a TV studio and a radio station to record pleas for Natalee's safe return.

+++++++++++++

viet vet
FP Comment
July 4, 2007

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/07/03/aruba-blames-fbi-beth-jug-dave-the-family-hell-they-blame-you-for-the-disappearance-of-natalee-holloway/

I went to Aruba 3 times, every time by private jet and did go thru the area he mentions. Claudio was in charge of that area as I remember and Alberto worked for Claudio.

All three, Gabriel (his girlfriend too), Alberto, a girl I called Ava (she looked like Ava Gardner) and Claudio traveled with us as ALE sent us on one wild goose chase after another.I met Van Der Stratten on the Wed. after Natalee went missing.

It was very clear to us that the cover-up was in full swing. Claudio, Alberto, and Gabriel all tried to help us and in the beginning Julia Renfro was with us.

After Wed. or Thurs. someone in the governnment or tourism or law enforcement, or more probably all of the above started talked to the people who were trying to help us get some answers. I do remember them talking to some of these people and telling them to watch what they were saying and doing. It appeared they put pretty on anyone they could.

Charles Croes and Julia turned on us fairly quickly, but they did have leverage on them. Claudio, Alberto, and Gabriel were still with us when I left the third time I was there. It was fairly open, Aruba’s powers that be did not want us in their country any longer.

[texasmom]

one word

landfill

   Do you think that is where "Eric" is? Or Natalee?

[BUCKSHOT]

one word

landfill

robots - HOWDY !!!

We all hope that NH was dumped at sea and her remains will be discovered.
OR this will simply eliminate the sea as her final resting place.
I guess we should all keep our fingers crossed...

You and others (along with myself) wonder as to the significance of the landfill.  Dave and his assembled crew had areas, that had been searched, moved so as to efficiently tackle the task of thoroughly searching the landfill.  They were greeted by a FIRE, SABOTAGE (dumping / moving trash to impede their progress), and GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS who discontinued search efforts for lack of permits. KINDA STRANGE.........

Another disposal, that has been talked about and seriously given weight to is the incinerator.  I am positive that incinerator owners could have been convinced to cooperate. 

The sea, to me, always leaves the possibility (in the minds of the perpetrators) of being discovered so it may have been ruled out by them.

[robots]

one word

landfill

robots - HOWDY !!!

We all hope that NH was dumped at sea and her remains will be discovered.
OR this will simply eliminate the sea as her final resting place.
I guess we should all keep our fingers crossed...

You and others (along with myself) wonder as to the significance of the landfill.  Dave and his assembled crew had areas, that had been searched, moved so as to efficiently tackle the task of thoroughly searching the landfill.  They were greeted by a FIRE, SABOTAGE (dumping / moving trash to impede their progress), and GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS who discontinued search efforts for lack of permits. KINDA STRANGE.........

Another disposal, that has been talked about and seriously given weight to is the incinerator.  I am positive that incinerator owners could have been convinced to cooperate. 

The sea, to me, always leaves the possibility (in the minds of the perpetrators) of being discovered so it may have been ruled out by them.

hi buckshot 

im inclined to believe she is in the landfill
for the reasons you posted

the killers were trying to keep people out of the landfill
most criminals are simple... these killers are simple
they just had corruption on their side

[robots]

one word

landfill

   Do you think that is where "Eric" is? Or Natalee?

hi texasmom

Natalee   

[Slogger]

Buckshot,

Did you mean Eric Williams?  I thought Eric Summers/Soemers was ALE, and signed on some of the PVs--when he supposedly wasn't there.

[BUCKSHOT]

Buckshot,

Did you mean Eric Williams?  I thought Eric Summers/Soemers was ALE, and signed on some of the PVs--when he supposedly wasn't there.

Slogger,

Yes - I did mean Eric Williams (DEA/FBI)
Thank You !!!

[BUCKSHOT]

Charles Croes was present during the confrontation with Joran, Deepak, and Paulus on the very first night. I am certain that he understood the language spoken, unlike the Americans present as they may have only understood bits and pieces.

Charles Croes is involved with the local cell phone provider. Although it may be part of a larger franchised company, he certainly represents a liason to that company.  Therefore, it can be ascertained that he could obtain cell phone communication records for that specific evening/early morning. Don't ya think??

He spoke to an "important friend" and met this person at a gas station, in the wee hours of the night and had separation from Beth and Jug, while they reviewed the casino tapes.

Yet....no one has seen a statement from him regarding his encounters with both families (VDS and Beth/Jug) that evening.  Nor has anyone seen the cell phone records from that evening/early morning and the days thereafter.  Unfortunately, in this investigation, nothing can be taken at face value.  His statement would likely be manipulated (and with stains from a spilled bowl of corn flakes) and the cell phone records could probably not be obtained due to a major computer crash, which lasted from May 28, 2005 through June 28, 2005 and can be verified by members of the Aruban government.

There is no doubt, in looking back with 20/20 hindsight that the VDS family was tipped off that a hurricane was heading their way.  Joran, Deepak, and Paulus were in major cover-up mode at that time.  Paulus was not sleeping, nor was his cell phone accidentally crazy-glued to his hand as he answered the door ten minutes after the first knock.  Deepak and Joran were not hitting up the casinos as indicated by their "deer in headlights" demeanor and dress attire of sweaty, dirty clothes.

Eric Williams fits into this puzzle in some way, shape, or form as well.  I know very limited information about him.  However, he reprewsents one of three scenarios in my mind: (a) he served as a liason for the family as they arrived. He put them in touch with the "right people" and assisted them as needed.  This scenario, according to what we have seen and heard from Beth did not occur.  He participated on the first night only and did not give a statement(PV) to the Aruban authorities, nor is he too concerned to make sure an accurate statement, which may actually hep the family and the case, is on record. (b) he served as a liason for the family as they arrived. He put them in touch with the "right people", then immediately removed himself from the situation.  This would indicate that he was there, covertly, and could not allow himself to be too visible on the island.  He only acted, out of kindness, to a fellow American.  (c) he used his DEA / FBI status, gained the trust of the family, purposefully steered them in the wrong direction, and stalled them for time as the hurrican descended quickly on the VDS.  This would indicate, if true, that he was on the dark side, so to speak.

Is it possible to locate Eric Williams, himself, and allow him to narrate his story and role in the first few days of the case, OR have the FBI/DEA confirm and/or deny his status at that time.  Should not be too hard to determine which side of the fence he is on...

Moving on, I have said this before and so have others... It is truly a shame that NH's family only sought to find their daughter, dead or alive, and make sure those responsible were held accountable, as was accustomed and standard in their home country.  I analogize their search as being the gerbil in a maze, where cheese is at the end of that maze.  As they make the right turn and find themselves on the right path, someone on the dark side lifts them up by the tail and places them back at start.  Aruba will do anything possible to ensure that the cheese is never obtained.  They will allow their economy to suffer a major decline, only to protect a select few.  2008: NH's family probably does not care at this point if anyone is even punished for their daughter's disappearance, and would be ecstatic if they found part of her body, only to bring home, bury, and lay(respectfully) to rest !!!

Correction: Eric Williams (DEA/FBI)

[Slogger]

Aw, thanks!  I was starting to worry that I'd lost it.

I'm not convinced that CC turned early and am more "inclined" to believe he was on the other side from the start.

In the early days of (Battle at) RWV, a few of us were trying to determine some kind of timeline and whether or not the VDS compound was alerted.  We decided that someone had tipped them off, but were unsure exactly who did it.  I've leaned toward CC as the one.

It wasn't clear who went with whom until you read the "we were coming down" interview.  Claudio and Alberto had the information, and told Beth and Jug.  CC has a strange, cloudy timeline.  CC mentioned having been to the VDS house and was talking on the phone to the H/Ts about meeting at the Police Station.  He mentioned going "back" which indicates he had been there earlier.

When everyone converges at the Police Station, the group is delayed.  They are delayed again at the house.  They are taken on a chase to the Wyndham.  Can you smell orchestration, or maybe it is something you can feel?

If Eric Williams was the "major friend," CC was part of the orchestration....early.  He didn't turn; he was in position; he may be the tipster.

MO

[Peaches]

I know nothing about Charles Croes, other than the info posted in the media.
He owns a cell phone company that services the island.
He met with Beth upon arriving on the island, at a gas station.
Etc...

My personal opinion is that he is not completely above board.  There is something about him that leads me to believe that he (a) is shady, (b) made sure he stayed out of the limelight at all times, (c) has more information than he is willing to acknowledge, and (d) is a double agent for sloots and has always placed their interest over that of family looking for their daughter.

Does anyone else feel the same way OR am I way off base with these thoughts???

Yes, all of the above.

[Slogger]

I agree.  Something is not right with the clairvoyant.

[Kermit]

Aw, thanks!  I was starting to worry that I'd lost it.

I'm not convinced that CC turned early and am more "inclined" to believe he was on the other side from the start.

In the early days of (Battle at) RWV, a few of us were trying to determine some kind of timeline and whether or not the VDS compound was alerted.  We decided that someone had tipped them off, but were unsure exactly who did it.  I've leaned toward CC as the one.

It wasn't clear who went with whom until you read the "we were coming down" interview.  Claudio and Alberto had the information, and told Beth and Jug.  CC has a strange, cloudy timeline.  CC mentioned having been to the VDS house and was talking on the phone to the H/Ts about meeting at the Police Station.  He mentioned going "back" which indicates he had been there earlier.

When everyone converges at the Police Station, the group is delayed.  They are delayed again at the house.  They are taken on a chase to the Wyndham.  Can you smell orchestration, or maybe it is something you can feel?

If Eric Williams was the "major friend," CC was part of the orchestration....early.  He didn't turn; he was in position; he may be the tipster.

MO

I agree Slogger.

Charles Croes met with Beth at the gas station at midnight and then no one sees him again until he calls Beth to meet at the polis station in Noord. The beach where he says he paid some kid $100.00 to take him to van der Sloot's home is only 5 minutes from that area and maybe another 10 - 15 minutes to the vds home. So from 12:45 until 2:30 Charles Croes was at Paulus van der Sloots home - making plans - afterall he was the one who listened to the phone call with Beth.

Then two days later he makes his crypt post online.

Charles Croes owned Hugo Boss store - Paulus watch looks very much like a Hugo Boss watch.

[BUCKSHOT]

One of the biggest obstacles, in solving this crime:

(1) There is no fear for lying and obstructing justice.

(2) In conjunction with (1), the prosecutors and investigative team facilitate the aforementioned by manipulating status of the individual.  "Oh...you are being interrogated today...we will classify you as a suspect so you can lie your ass off...then switch you back to a witness when your interrogation is over. That way, all of your testimony will be useless and just shoved in the case files. Paulus will pick up this weeks evidence, analyze it, and get back to us as to how to proceed..."

The opportunity to bring this case to a resolution was lost in the first few days of the crime(s).  This three kids would crack in a heartbeat, after being confronted with each and every one of their inconsistent stories, in a normal prosecutorial setting (anywhere else in the world). However, in Aruba, it was learned early on that if you keep your mouth shut, and allow those on "clean-up duty" to do their work, you will walk free.

Which makes me wonder, if those in charge of the investigation knew that nothing was going to happen to those boys, and interrogations were done out of formality, what in the hell could possibly take place during them. Nothing is the answer.

"OK...everyone knows that you guys are being interrogated today and tomorrow...so, when you walk out of here, act like you were just crying, look scared, and do not talk to anyone...we will take care of the rest for you"

I have to believe, however, that honest policeman involved in the search did exist. How were these people kept under control? Did they send them on false leads, while those on clean-up duty handled the stuff that needed to disappear? I am just trying to run through in my mind the logisitics on cover-up, that encompassed so many people.

[Slogger]

Kermit said: "Charles Croes owned Hugo Boss store - Paulus watch looks very much like a Hugo Boss watch."

So, more likely than not, Charles Croes and PVDS knew each other from Hugo Boss comparison.  How many Hugo Boss outlets could there be on a small island?  It could be coincidence; but as my Granny Toad pounds into me......"there are no coincidences with murder." 

Is there anything to the information that CC could have been the beneficiary of the Mathews fiasco?