Natalee Case Discussion #721 2/3- 2/4/08

[Observer]

When does the programme air in the US? I mean, how long till it airs, I'm bad at timezones 

It's on tonight at at 9:30PM EST and I think 8:30PM central..West coast will probably see it at 9:30PM there time. It's a 90 minute program.

[Kermit]

Joran's story does not fit the evidence or what we know to be as close to fact as possible...check it out....

Things we know..monkeys help me here, please.

1. FBI told the family there was blood in Deepak's car....
2. There was an 8 min phone call to Deepak from Joran at a very convenient time.  What was Joran relating to Deepak? 
3. There is documentation that Paulus was out at 4 AM (still looking for it, but I know I read it)
4. Deepak was cleaning his car at 3 in the morning on said night.  Before or after the 8 min call?
5. Paulus was arrested on a premeditated murder charge.
6. Satish asks how is the girl?  WHY?
7. Joran's shoes are missing.
8. Freddy offers to buy him a new pair? Is that not a red flag?
9. Deepak calls Joran to tell him they hit the jackpot with Steve Croes testimony.
10. Joran's first confession is lost in infinity forever thanks to Jacobs.

This is a start...the things we know does not jive with Joran's story...this confession is to make it all go away...not gonna happen.

That is what I find interesting about this whole thing Lala's.  Why hasn't he been re-arrested yet?  Do I believe his entire confession?  Of course not.  But, I do believe truths are sprinkled throughout it, and that seems like reason enough to detain him and re-interview based on infor contained within...

I think an admission (on tape) like this is an interrogator's dream!!  I mean, you have a foundation of information to begin with.  Certain elements of the "story" can be focused on in order to extract additional admissions from.  Why not give them another shot at doing just that with Joran?  I mean, we've NEVER had info like this before.  If there was EVER a time to have him arrested, it would be now, wouldn't it?

LALA's MOM here is what I think you are looking for.

Superior Court
January, 2007

The possible involvement of Paulus with that could then be deducted from the file with the official reports of witnesses, amongst which two people suggested a contact existed between Paulus and Natalee Holloway the night of her disappearance, and a taped report (that was given by the Prosecutor in her final note 1 to the Court).  The taped information and his declaration that  he picked up Joran and Natalee by the McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to the Holiday Inn, are clearly understood by the Dept. of Justice, and could in the judgement of this Superior Court, be considered as an indication of the involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.”

[Helen Back]

Good day monkeys and welcome to all the new monkeys from all over the world!

Welcome to me too, as I've been locked out for most of the morning. 

Going back to catch up with you all.......

Helen Back

[Anna]

Not at all.  The law is explained in great detail to a jury and they MUST adhere to it.  They are not allowed to just act on a whim.  And there is the "beyond a reasonable doubt" clause to keep in mind as well.  All twelve must be in agreement also.  Even one can prevent a guilty verdict. 

How can you explain the law to a jury when it takes a judge several years to study it and has to pass exams to become a judge?

Only the laws and options with which the person has been charged need to be explained.  Petty theft laws would not be needed for a person charged with murder.  Only murder and its degrees would need to be explained.

Interestingly, murder is a state offense and the laws are different in the various states as well.  And jury selection is very detailed as well with attorney from each side being allowed to strike a certain number from the list of jurors after questioning them in open courtroom.  Anyone incapable of understanding a basic definition like the willful taking of the life of another would be eliminated during this process as well.  Both sides are supposed to be reasonably satisfied with the sitting jury at the end of this process.

Hope this helps.

[SunnyinTX]

I am just amazed that Joran is still alive and walking around.

hi vet...and welcome....I agree....however i think up until the show last night ...many people believed him....he is able to project himself as a normal person...however the car video showed the REAL urine and it's sickening to think the real urine is the one Natalee saw at the end of her life.

[Lala'sMom]

Vomit on the shoes...not a big deal in fact it would work to Joran's advantage.  She was sick. She had a seizure...see this is where she vomited on my shoes.  I could do nothing to help her...it was too late.  I panicked and tossed her out to sea.  I am so sorry...I was just 17 and it was just too much for me to think about.  Even analyzing the vomit could easily be interpreted as being in his favor... there would be alcohol, drugs and such and even maybe some GHB.  ALE would need to prove that he ordered the GHB for her. He already bought her a drink at CnC and we all know those are dangerous drinks there.  It would very hard to prove Joran did it without being able to test all the girls that night for the presence of GHB in their drinks.  I told you this scenario is easily defended without corroboration and Joran knew that did not exist when he made that tape.  We are giving this other guy way too much credit here...Joran is cunning. 

[Observer]

I am just amazed that Joran is still alive and walking around.

He is being protected and always has been..For whatever reasons..Those were not horrific blunders made over and over again by the Prosecuters,Police and Judges..It's a cover up! If someone takes him out it will be a Aruban who has suffered because of him or a crazy thug who hates him in Holland.

[cubbeegirl]

Posted by Sunmoonstars at RU:

Rechercheurs Monday of the KLPD have searched two addresses in Arnhem in the investigation into the disappearance of the American teenager Natalee Holloway. The Aruban public prosecutor had this commissioned.

Posted at RU:

Black-Tulip wrote:


Joran's own place and his grandparent's house. Not said what they were looking for.

Well, at least we have the satisfaction of knowing that Frankenstein Boy is prolly peeing in his pants.... I don't care how much he tries to act like a tough guy , he has to be scared.....I hope so...

cubbee...I too would like to think he is scared, but I can't. He thinks he is untouchable and it has been shown that the judges in aruba are not going to allow him to be tried....much less convicted.....i just can't see him scared at this point in time....he thinks he is


Sunny... one can always hope....
And the way his voice was cracking when he was talking on that radio show, he was definitely ready to cry... I think he knows he has opened up another can of worms with his bragadocious admissions.....

[Kermit]

I feel it is significant that one of the stories told way back in 2005 was about Natalee falling and hurting her head.  There is an element of truth in this kind of statement IMO.  Otherwis why would anyone just randomly bring that up?

Oh ...and hello all.  I am just thrilled to be a member now after three years of lurking!

I agree jehnifer and welcome to SM

[Anna]

2.04.2008
Confession was a sham


Amigoe.com
02/04/2008


HILVERSUM/ORANJESTAD -- Joran van der Sloot said in the Dutch TV-program Pauw & Witteman that his ‘confession’, of which Peter R. de Vries has recordings, was made up. “I just told him what he wanted to hear”, said Joran. His Aruban lawyer, Ariean de Bie confirms the story: “He didn’t know that he was dealing with a so-called friend. The man spoke perfect Papiamento and is from Aruba. What he told him was rubbish.”

The whole day on Friday it looked like Natalee Holloway’s case was solved. Several media ‘disclosed’ little by little the ‘missing’ information that De Vries supposedly has and is going to show in his program on the Dutch commercial broadcast SBS6. Due to carnival and broadcasting rights, the images won’t be shown live in Aruba. However, NOS Journal may show sections of the broadcasting on BVN that same day.

It became clear yesterday that the infiltrator was an older man. “It was so foolish, so foolish”, said Joran about what he did. “What I have told him, is not correct. That is also easy to figure out.” He gave an unambiguous answer on how to do that. He also didn’t give an answer on why he lied again. “That’s something I also ask myself”, he said. “There is not one reason why you should believe me. I have just been tricked.”

LITTLE BOAT

In his ‘confession’ he had said that he made love to Natalee Holloway, who was probably under the influence of drugs, felt sick and died. Where the investigation closed last year with Joran saying that he left the girl alone on the beach, he now ‘confessed’ to the infiltrator that he had called a friend, who came to the disaster scene with a little boat. The friend had supposedly dumped the body of Holloway in sea. When he was asked who the friend is, he didn’t say that the person does not exist, as would be expected from a person that is innocent. He said that he can proof that he had met that friend after the disappearance of Natalee. He also said that he had recently talked to the ‘infiltrator-friend’ and the ‘boat-friend’.

All the possible telephone conversations that Joran had that evening, were traced to the last detail. Several jurists point out that such a confession without supplementary evidence – boat, friend, telephone conversations – does not solve the case. Peter R. de Vries has meanwhile reacted again saying that Joran’s explanation is ‘completely not impressive’. He was even less impressed with Jeroen Pauw and Paul Witteman’s interview with Joran. He says that the two presenters didn’t ask him critical questions. It seems like they were so pleased that he wanted to talk to them on the phone that out of modesty, they forgot that they are journalists.”

PRIMETIME

De Vries’ announcement that he has solved the case, caused a barrage of international media-attention. The American TV-station ABC has meanwhile bought the episode of De Vries’ program from producer Endemol, who has the broadcasting rights, and will broadcast it in primetime on Monday.

Several news-casts, including CNN mentioned Friday that the OM in Aruba has already arrested Joran van der Sloot. Report is in the Netherlands that Joran van der Sloot went into hiding and keeps all media far away from him since his telephone conversation with Pauw & Witteman.

Just hours after Joran van der Sloot mentioned to Paul and Witteman that his confession in the Holloway-case was a lie, a lot of American media, like Associated Press, CNN, International Herald Tribune and the TV-stations FoxNews and ABC News reported this new development, ‘Student denies involvement in Holloway-case’. ABC is going to dedicate 90 minutes to the last hours of the, at that time 18-year old Natalee Holloway in Aruba. Since the beginning of the disappearance-case in 2005, hundreds of articles about the American Holloway and Joran van der Sloot were published in the American media.

PROSECUTOR PARTS WITH DIRECTION

“Which prosecutor parts with the direction and four days later, allows a crime journalist to bring his ‘evidence’ into the open?” is Renée Gielen’s reaction. The TV- and documentary producer in Curacao has been following the Holloway-case from the beginning and has announced that she is making a documentary on one of the most talked-about disappearance cases ever.

“This same prosecutor (Hans Mos, red.) was not willing to listen to my findings. When last week Monday I called him for an appointment, he told me that ‘he is very busy finishing up a case and that he has no time; he was soon leaving for the Netherlands for a few weeks and that I had to call him at the end of February. He also told me that I have all sorts of theories and only his is the correct one’.

So, I cannot tell the OM or the police of my findings. Dolphi Richardson told me that the police are no longer allowed to accept anything and referred me kindly to the OM. The entire world thinks that the case stops with Joran, but the case only started after Joran left Natalee alone on the beach.”


// posted by Getagrip @ 2/04/2008 10:36:00 AM 

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2008/02/confession-was-sham-amigoe.html


Klaas, if already posted, please delete.  I can't keep up.

.

[SunnyinTX]

I just watched Taco on GMA this morning, and all I could say was "damn"...

I mean, he's basically trying to dispute what he own client has said on tape!  Is that bothering anyone else?  Then, he says that the evidence doesn't point to his client?  Huh?  Isn't a videotaped confession considered evidence?  Something tells me that if they produced another videotape of the actual killing, he'd find a way to spin it being another "misinterpretation of the truth"...

This guy's a piece of work, that's for sure!

Hi TS...tacopenis is as much of a piece of scum as is his client

[Lala'sMom]

Kermit!!!!  Old buddy. old pal!  Yes, Yes, yes....that is it....Read everyone.  They know others are involved in this and it's not just Joran and some unknown person. Thanks you handsome frog. 



Superior Court
January, 2007

The possible involvement of Paulus with that could then be deducted from the file with the official reports of witnesses, amongst which two people suggested a contact existed between Paulus and Natalee Holloway the night of her disappearance, and a taped report (that was given by the Prosecutor in her final note 1 to the Court).  The taped information and his declaration that  he picked up Joran and Natalee by the McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to the Holiday Inn, are clearly understood by the Dept. of Justice, and could in the judgement of this Superior Court, be considered as an indication of the involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.”

[Anna]

My, the spin doctors are busy this morning!


2.04.2008
Doubt about the use of ‘evidence’ from hidden camera
Amigoe.com
02/04/2008


ORANJESTAD/DEN HAAG – The Dutch top-lawyer Gerard Spong expressed his doubts about the use of ‘evidence’ collected with a hidden camera. He did this in the TV-program Nova yesterday evening. Peter R. de Vries says that with these images, he has solved the Natalee Holloway-case, because Joran van der Sloot has supposedly confessed to a friend his involvement with the disappearance of Holloway.

The question whether the evidence with a hidden camera is illegal and whether the Aruban justice is allowed to use that, is ‘contriving’. He then refers to the Netherlands’ sentence by the European Court in Straatsburg on October 25, 2007 for the use of secret tape recordings. “That was according to the European Court, a violation of the right on privacy. This court decided that monitoring and recording conversations by a private person in the context of and on behalf of an official investigation with the use of technical assistance of the police, is inadmissible.”

According to Spong, even without the assistance of the police, penetrating the personal life with visual technical means is also inadmissible. “But if that illegal evidence is given to justice on a silver plate, it may, according to the verdict, still be used in some cases. I am not certain whether this is also the case here, but it is indeed exiting.”

Besides, whether Van der Sloot had lied in his ‘confession’ or not, it still is not a confession about murder, says the lawyer. According to Antillean law, a person that buries, hides, carries off, or takes off a body with the intention of concealing the death, will be sentenced to a maximum of 6 months imprisonment or a fine of a maximum of 300 guilders. It is not possible to keep the person in custody for such fact. Spong is wondering why, after professional judicial advice of his father, Joran van der Sloot, while knowing that the criminal consequences for him are so relatively small, has opted to remain silent in the Holloway-case.



// posted by Getagrip @ 2/04/2008 10:42:00 AM 

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2008/02/doubt-about-use-of-evidence-from-hidden.html

[cubbeegirl]

I am just amazed that Joran is still alive and walking around.

He is being protected and always has been..For whatever reasons..Those were not horrific blunders made over and over again by the Prosecuters,Police and Judges..It's a cover up! If someone takes him out it will be a Aruban who has suffered because of him or a crazy thug who hates him in Holland.

Yep..... cover up right from the beginning.... it surprises me how many people I talk to who do not even follow this case like we do who believe it is a cover  up also....

[blah]

this is a topic that could be debated all day long but i'll just try and give you some quick facts to help understand.

...

Let's agree to disagree.

I know it is difficult to understand for a person who is used to a system that allows people to lie without consequece but in our system, your lies can and will be used against you.

So we will disagree and keep moving so this isnt too distracting to the real topic. No problem.

[SunnyinTX]

Good day monkeys and welcome to all the new monkeys from all over the world!

Welcome to me too, as I've been locked out for most of the morning. 

Going back to catch up with you all.......

Helen Back

Hi Helen!  It took me nearly all morning to get caught up!  Good Luck

[Tamikosmom]

Posted by MF at RU - MF keeps adding to his press conference post:

Press conference Mos (4 Feb'08)

Mos said the main reason to held this is to avoid misinterpretation or misquotes like the one that happened on Oprah.

He just gave a short statement: the case was never closed, it has been ongoing and he regrets that on Oprah, eventhough the OM gave a statement about this, they misrepresented the OM and ALE.

THe judicial case against the suspects were closed, and has opened this back based on the seriousness of the statements on TV.

He said that there is a big difference between solving a case on TV and trying to present this to a court. When presented to the court to redetain the suspect, he said that the judge did not see that these images were strong enough for the detention and the appeal will take place tomorrow.

The statements made an impression on us. We are working with the ALE and have contact with the KLPD for some help, for example the searches that took place this morning at 9:00 am in the Netherland.

Mos confirmed that he talked to the families about security and it is their job to guarantee that.

They are indeed looking for the new person mentioned in the show. And they think that the tape is admissable in court, and stressed that the OM was not involved in this, but was a private project.

He does not want to go into details about the boat, but joked about there are a lot of boats out there, to question if he found the boat.

He was asked of the lack of a payphone but credit card phone on the beach and said that they are investigating that, and for him paying with a credit card is a payphone. But they are investigating that.

He said that the Kalpoes must be happy now that Joran said that they were not involved.

He once again stressed that they consider the statements as serious and it should be investigated, that could bring judicial consequences. And important is that what he now is telling is different what he has told us, the place now is a few hundred meters to the north and that brings a whole new change in the investigation.

Aruba's police has a good track record, and that there is a 100% solution rate about a question from an American reporter how many american tourists have been killed in Aruba. He laughed.

They are trying to corraborate what he said. And when Joran said that it is easy to check what he said was not true, and that's what OM plans to do.

I there an official transcript or a credible Network article available of Hans Mos press conference?

Thank you.

Janet

[cubbeegirl]

Kermit!!!!  Old buddy. old pal!  Yes, Yes, yes....that is it....Read everyone.  They know others are involved in this and it's not just Joran and some unknown person. Thanks you handsome frog. 



Superior Court
January, 2007

The possible involvement of Paulus with that could then be deducted from the file with the official reports of witnesses, amongst which two people suggested a contact existed between Paulus and Natalee Holloway the night of her disappearance, and a taped report (that was given by the Prosecutor in her final note 1 to the Court).  The taped information and his declaration that  he picked up Joran and Natalee by the McDonalds Palm Beach and brought them to the Holiday Inn, are clearly understood by the Dept. of Justice, and could in the judgement of this Superior Court, be considered as an indication of the involvement of Paulus in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.”

And they don't even care...

[robots]

"your own father"

paulus was never referred to as "Dad"  i always thought that was stange but maybe in some countries its normal, but nothing about joran is normal

paulus and joran out gambling together, out drinking together in casinos when it was AGAINST the law. paulus was jorans buddy - his best buddy even above freddy

what else did they do together ?

kill together

rape together


it appears as though they did

paulus is the one

[Lynnie76]

Tacopina on GMA
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4237805&affil=wncf

MSNBC COVERAGE
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/22991283#22991283

GMA NATALEE'S MOM REACTS
http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=4237586&affil=wncf

Thank you *******

Yes, thanks *******.  Is it just me or does Taco look like he had sleepless, drunk night?