Natalee Case Discussion #722 2/4 - 2/5/08am

[caesu]

the scaredmonkeys (observer777 is moderator) site has a lot of valuable information.

there has really been a lot of indepth honest investigation over there i noticed just by glancing at the blog and forum.
but ofcourse also misinformation and speculation.

but that's what you get with such a complicated case with false confessions, statements being withdawn, potential cover up and all that.

problem is, the information is just overwhelming.
it might be a good idea for SM to make comprehensive summary of al the 'facts' with timelines and sources and everything.

i will be a hell of a job, but this way it is easier to get into all the information surrounding this case.
if more people (in the neterlands) get to know all the proven facts and propable theories it could ultimately reach the regular media and maybe even help solving the case...

or is there already such a summary on the SM-site? sorry for missing that...

(posted the same on a dutch forum - where observer777 is also posting there)

http://forum.fok.nl/topic/1123224/1/50#56540764

[crazybabyborg]

Now we have to figure out who the owner of the boat is.  I say it belonged to either the Marriott or someone involved there.  Many of you think it is Koen's boat while others think it is Steve Croes and one of the girls who used to be a great and prolific poster at RWV said it belonged to Scuba's brother-in-law.

Steve Croes was/is very good friends with GVC who has access to boats as he does beach patrol as well as business patrol.  He has a sister who is a policewoman who worked for Vander Stratten.  GVC is a party animal and there are pictures of him partying with Croes.  He could come up with whatever is needed and was the one who had a problem when he gave NH a butt slap.  None of those guys in that group are used to being rebuffed, it seems.  GVC is a hard nose when he has to be and it is useful to him, I am thinking.  He was picked up at one time and they wisked him away.  They all knew about this and many of them participated in pre and post death crimes.  I believe, and feel I have reason to, that GVC and Croes, participants along with PVS  participant in at least the coverup, took over the final death and disposal or at least made sure she would not point the finger at anyone.       Jack blue

I thought about that last night as GVC would have access to water equipment.  The girl who was with GVC at a motel the night "the something bad happened" news came out said he received a cell phone call and told her it was from home and was very disturbed and I think, if I recall correctly, left her in bed and went someplace, never to return again.  She appeared about the time he was arrested saying she had no idea it was possible she was in a motel with a possible rapist/murderer.  I think Joran might consider one of the beach patrol qualified regards life and death, although I don't think GVC would be.  I am saying "his father," because some people on Aruba seemed to think GVC might be a bit unstable and maybe Joran called his father who referred Steve Croes to them and gave him permission to use the beach patrol equipment.  What if Steve Croes donned one of the beach patrol shirts so as not to be recognized and that was the shirt that was found that some believed would put GVC in a somewhat precarious position, although I am sure there were probably dozens of those shirts around but if Steve Croes was wearing one and using beach patrol equipment, no one would think a thing about it.

Girl, you DO have a fantastic memory! That's right, I'd forgotten about that phone call to GVC! I've always wondered just how close Steve Croes and Deepak were. I'm convinced Deepak called Croes and was the catayist for Croes "backing up" the HI story. Of course, if Steve was involved in Natalee's disposal in the ocean, he would be motivated to focus the investigation elsewhere.

[Scandi]

Thanks for the updates, everyone. I was unable to watch either Greta or the ABC show but you all filled me in. I sense great relief and happiness here tonight. Sure enough, as everyone hoped, he eventually talked too much. Natalee could not have guessed what kind of person she was dealing with. He fooled the best of 'em for a long time. This is not an ordinary street punk.

Hi Port Valerie,  That really hit home for me tonight, that he isn't an ordinary street punk.   

He's no angel http://ganjataz.com/smileys/01-angels/images/naughty/lyingbastard-im-no-angel.  He's cold hearted, no emotion.

I have heard more people on TV today say, Just Watch.  He'll be in big trouble again soon.  A wanna-be criminal! 

I wonder how his little bro is doing thru all this?   Night everyone.  Manyana ;}

[Scandi]

Oh, I found this little smilie earlier so see if this works.  It was so perfect and now it won't work! 
http://ganjataz.com/smileys/01-angels/images/naughty/lyingbastard-im-no-angel.gif

[crazybabyborg]

I just did a little refreshing of my memory with the car tape and am bringing this excerpt here, in light of recent events, for your thoughts..............


Joran: The only thing that I can think of is my family. I do what my family
tells me to do. Right, +++++.
Deepak: Your own father, unbelievable.
Joran: What my father, it is your fault that he is arrested. I didn't
declare anything against my father, you two declared against my father
Satish: We didn't declare anything.
Joran: Or course, you did.
Satish: What did I tell against your father?
Joran: You are telling that he declared, that if there is no body [lijk =
dead body], there is no case or I don't what. All shit. That is totally not
true, the only thing is that he said is, if there is no body [lichaam =
body], then there isn't a case.
Deepak: Yes, that's true.
Joran: That's not true.
Deepak: I also said in my statement, that it wasn't meant like that.
Joran: Didn't read it in your statement. They use that now against my
father.
Deepak: We suffered a lot because of you.
Joran: That's the price that you let my father pay. That you let him suffer
like that. f*** you. If you let me suffer, I say ok. It doesn't matter to
me. I can just sit here for 160 days. It doesn't make a f***ing difference
to me. I'm sitting good here.

[crazybabyborg]

I just did a little refreshing of my memory with the car tape and am bringing this excerpt here, in light of recent events, for your thoughts..............


Joran: The only thing that I can think of is my family. I do what my family
tells me to do. Right, +++++.
Deepak: Your own father, unbelievable.
Joran: What my father, it is your fault that he is arrested. I didn't
declare anything against my father, you two declared against my father
Satish: We didn't declare anything.
Joran: Or course, you did.
Satish: What did I tell against your father?
Joran: You are telling that he declared, that if there is no body [lijk =
dead body], there is no case or I don't what. All shit. That is totally not
true, the only thing is that he said is, if there is no body [lichaam =
body], then there isn't a case.
Deepak: Yes, that's true.
Joran: That's not true.
Deepak: I also said in my statement, that it wasn't meant like that.
Joran: Didn't read it in your statement. They use that now against my
father.
Deepak: We suffered a lot because of you.
Joran: That's the price that you let my father pay. That you let him suffer
like that. f*** you. If you let me suffer, I say ok. It doesn't matter to
me. I can just sit here for 160 days. It doesn't make a f***ing difference
to me. I'm sitting good here. [/b]

Those first 2 sentences made me immediately think of Joran's story to Patrick. He told him that his "friend" that night told him to go home, go to school, act normal. ( I do what my family tells me to do)

And Deepak's response is about Joran's father ( your own Father, unbelievable.........)

I really do think it was Paulus that Joran turned to for help.

[crazybabyborg]

I just did a little refreshing of my memory with the car tape and am bringing this excerpt here, in light of recent events, for your thoughts..............


Joran: The only thing that I can think of is my family. I do what my family
tells me to do. Right, +++++.
Deepak: Your own father, unbelievable.
Joran: What my father, it is your fault that he is arrested. I didn't
declare anything against my father, you two declared against my father
Satish: We didn't declare anything.
Joran: Or course, you did.
Satish: What did I tell against your father?
Joran: You are telling that he declared, that if there is no body [lijk =
dead body], there is no case or I don't what. All shit. That is totally not
true, the only thing is that he said is, if there is no body [lichaam =
body], then there isn't a case.
Deepak: Yes, that's true.
Joran: That's not true.
Deepak: I also said in my statement, that it wasn't meant like that.
Joran: Didn't read it in your statement. They use that now against my
father.
Deepak: We suffered a lot because of you.
Joran: That's the price that you let my father pay. That you let him suffer
like that. f*** you. If you let me suffer, I say ok. It doesn't matter to
me. I can just sit here for 160 days. It doesn't make a f***ing difference
to me. I'm sitting good here.

The conversation continues about Paulus and Joran accuses K2 of saying Paulus says "No Body, No Case). That's uncanny in light of what we have heard on the DeVries tapes. This conversation has melted from "doing what his family tells him", right into disappearing her body. If you place Paulus in as the friend who assisted Joran, it follows the same sequence as the scene on the beach.

[Bearlyhere]

Thanks for the updates, everyone. I was unable to watch either Greta or the ABC show but you all filled me in. I sense great relief and happiness here tonight. Sure enough, as everyone hoped, he eventually talked too much. Natalee could not have guessed what kind of person she was dealing with. He fooled the best of 'em for a long time. This is not an ordinary street punk.

And if someone doesn't figure out how to put him away, we will hear the name Joran Van der Sloot again connected with another innocent person that has become his victim. I really do believe that!

If there hasn't been one already.

[Debra]

I cannot believe that Joran would put out the name of a friend of his
as the actual murderer!!!!

Joran better watch his back!

Where is the actual murder scene?
Fisherman's huts oir Holiday Inn?
Neither?

[crazybabyborg]

I just did a little refreshing of my memory with the car tape and am bringing this excerpt here, in light of recent events, for your thoughts..............


Joran: The only thing that I can think of is my family. I do what my family
tells me to do. Right, +++++.
Deepak: Your own father, unbelievable.
Joran: What my father, it is your fault that he is arrested. I didn't
declare anything against my father, you two declared against my father
Satish: We didn't declare anything.
Joran: Or course, you did.
Satish: What did I tell against your father?
Joran: You are telling that he declared, that if there is no body [lijk =
dead body], there is no case or I don't what. All shit. That is totally not
true, the only thing is that he said is, if there is no body [lichaam =
body], then there isn't a case.
Deepak: Yes, that's true.
Joran: That's not true.
Deepak: I also said in my statement, that it wasn't meant like that.
Joran: Didn't read it in your statement. They use that now against my
father.
Deepak: We suffered a lot because of you.
Joran: That's the price that you let my father pay. That you let him suffer
like that. f*** you. If you let me suffer, I say ok. It doesn't matter to
me. I can just sit here for 160 days. It doesn't make a f***ing difference
to me. I'm sitting good here. [/color]

Deepak says they have suffered a lot because of Joran. That would follow Joran's story of them not really being involved, but he mightily defends his Father, and any threat to Paulus really seems to push his buttons. Joran told Patrick that this "man" that assisted him meant a lot to him, he had known him since he was a kid, and that he would give his life for him.

[hotping]

Thanks for the updates, everyone. I was unable to watch either Greta or the ABC show but you all filled me in. I sense great relief and happiness here tonight. Sure enough, as everyone hoped, he eventually talked too much. Natalee could not have guessed what kind of person she was dealing with. He fooled the best of 'em for a long time. This is not an ordinary street punk.

And if someone doesn't figure out how to put him away, we will hear the name Joran Van der Sloot again connected with another innocent person that has become his victim. I really do believe that!

If there hasn't been one already.

Hi BH! Did You hear Joran say on one of the tapes that the person with the boat would not rat him out because Joran has something on that person....I say Daury is Paulus..MY Hubby even made a joke that maybe when Joran was little He couldn't say Daddy he might have called Him Daury.....but Daury might also be a code name for Paulus.....Weird thoughts I'm having tonight.....  

[crazybabyborg]

I cannot believe that Joran would put out the name of a friend of his
as the actual murderer!!!!

Joran better watch his back!

Where is the actual murder scene?
Fisherman's huts oir Holiday Inn?
Neither?

Welcome, Debra! Yes, Joran is hardly welcomed anywhere right now, is he? We're all trying to figure out where Natalee died and there are lots of opinions!

Bearlyhere, I really do worry that he'll have another victim if they just let this go!

[Altruist]

Greta said that Jug told her that early on the polis were asking the family if Natalee had ever had seizures.  Hold that thought.

On June 10th, they announced someone had confessed that something bad happened, and was leading them to where they buried her.  (So possibly they did cover her with sand briefly.)  Then they immediately retracted that announcement and denied it happened. 

But it did happen.  Joran must have confessed something akin to the story we just heard about her passing out, convulsing, and then dying.  But of course he can maintain he didn't hurt her because, after all, in his mind he wasn't the one who put the drug in her 75% alcohol.  So they started asking if she'd had seizures.  But they knew some version of what had happened.  They just elected to cover it up and not prosecute him for any of it.

Remember the rumors were that the confession was stated after 10 PM & that it is against the law for minors on LieRuba to be interrogated past the 10PM therefore the confession was inadmissable, I say this was all compliments of Van de Stratten.  He is very much involved in this IMO.

[hotping]

I cannot believe that Joran would put out the name of a friend of his
as the actual murderer!!!!

Joran better watch his back!

Where is the actual murder scene?
Fisherman's huts oir Holiday Inn?
Neither?

Welcome Debra! Neither... in My Opinion its the VDS House!

[Scandi]

Hi CrazyBabyBorg,  So if Joran called his dad, do you think he in turn called S croes to do something with the body?  And I say that as Steve called the VDS home at 6:30 in the morning,  Could have been reporting in.  When Joran said this guy came over to his house later when the deed was done, I think that wasn't really true and the phone call was their confirmation!

OH, I just remembered something,  Remember the night the Twitty's came to town and Charlie Croes went looking for Joran,  He stopped at the beach and asked some kids which car was Joran's , or SS.  And then he told whoever he was driving in his car that he wanted to check out some bushes next to the beach to see if maybe Natalee could be there?

Maybe Charlie Croes had been told where Natalee had been temporarily put and wanted to see if she was now gone.

Do you remember more about that?  Thanks, and sorry this was such a disorganized post.

[Shell]

Thanks for the updates, everyone. I was unable to watch either Greta or the ABC show but you all filled me in. I sense great relief and happiness here tonight. Sure enough, as everyone hoped, he eventually talked too much. Natalee could not have guessed what kind of person she was dealing with. He fooled the best of 'em for a long time. This is not an ordinary street punk.

And if someone doesn't figure out how to put him away, we will hear the name Joran Van der Sloot again connected with another innocent person that has become his victim. I really do believe that!

If there hasn't been one already.

I keep thinking about the other victims from his 20 times before. I had a lot of thoughts today but the forum moved too fast for me to keep up and read, much less post. I have had 2 jammy days in a row. Tonights show wore me out emotionally. I'm going to bed and try to sleep. Thanks Red, Mrs. Red, Klaas, *******, CBB, San and Dugga for your hard work. You have done a fine job and I am grateful. Thanks to all the monkeys for their kindness and dedication. L, Shell

[Justice4all]

Debra, I'm thinking it was just a name that came into his head. I think the murder scene is the beach between the Marriott and The Holiday Inn.

[crazybabyborg]

Hi CrazyBabyBorg,  So if Joran called his dad, do you think he in turn called S croes to do something with the body?  And I say that as Steve called the VDS home at 6:30 in the morning,  Could have been reporting in.  When Joran said this guy came over to his house later when the deed was done, I think that wasn't really true and the phone call was their confirmation!

OH, I just remembered something,  Remember the night the Twitty's came to town and Charlie Croes went looking for Joran,  He stopped at the beach and asked some kids which car was Joran's , or SS.  And then he told whoever he was driving in his car that he wanted to check out some bushes next to the beach to see if maybe Natalee could be there?

Maybe Charlie Croes had been told where Natalee had been temporarily put and wanted to see if she was now gone.

Do you remember more about that?  Thanks, and sorry this was such a disorganized post.

Excellent post, Scandi! I don't remember any more than you do, but your train of thought is very interesting.

Nite Shell! Sleep well and thank you on everyone's behalf for the kind words!

Edited: Sorry Shell!

[hotping]

Joe Taco said tonight on Greta that there are 20 hours of tapes from Peter and that He (JOE)  has read the transcripts...I just wonder what other info is on them that SM would find very interesting.....I wonder if they will be published...sure hope so.....I bet We might get some answers from them....MO 

[hotping]

Good Night All!