Natalee Case Discussion #728 2/10 - 2/11/08

[Auntiem]

  I believe you're correct on the US getting an edited  version...which leads me to another question WHY???  Why are we not getting the tape in it's entirety, or at least containing all the facts.
    To edit out any part admitting to drugging Natalee makes no sense!!

[Auntiem]

Oh, Anna, all along I thought it was just pontificating to impress Robin but I believe you have found the origins of the problem and no doubt the genesis of the Orweillien gasbaggery itself.

      I'm sorry, I haven't  been here that long,  and this makes no sense to me, (esp when I, too, need coffee) Who was "pontificating to impress Robin (Holloway??)???

[teacat]

Right... in the last 50 pages, it was stated that the Kalpoes both say they dropped JVDS and NH off at the beach and left them. These are the 2 collaborating witness statements. BUT!
on 5/31/05, Satish K says:
On your question if Joran and the girl had gotten out of the car at the Fisherman’s Huts and walked by the sea;
I answer you no.  Joran and the girl never got out of Deepak’s car. He also says she fell out of the car at her hotel and that a dark guard approached her etc etc all of which was disproved. So clearly he's a liar.

and
Deepak K stated on the same day:

On your question if Joran and the girl had stepped from my car at the Fisherman’s Huts and walked by the sea;
I will answer you no.  and stated that she got out the HI and fell, and that JVDS helped her stand, she pushed away and a dark guard with walkie talkie came to her, all of which has been disproved. So he's a liar.

Question: Why are they credible witnesses to dropping the two off at the beach? 

Sarcasm on..... I think I need to move to Aruba where I can alternate between lies and say I am lying and that's the truth (WTF?), get away with lying and misbehaving and general obnoxiousness and live on an island paradise and drug up and lay in the sun and drink umbrella drinks and thumb my nose at tourists and demand that American keep the dollars rolling in. Anybody want to join me?
Sarcasm off....
.....question:

All the physical evidence, the belt, cloth, single shoe, bones, phone, etc.... where are they all now? Aruba or the Netherlands. Have they all been explained away as not relevant? The belt sure looks like the one JVDS had in his hand.


I do apologize if these are old questions but I am rather new to this group. Thanks for indulging me!
OH! and Good Morning!

PS what is the "Visibility Team"?

[nonesuche]

Peaches - I agree with you, first Beth is a heroine and the epitome of a mother who will relentlessly turn over every rock on the planet to find her child, and I also suspect that there is more damning evidence on those tapes we haven't seen yet.

Private Eye - you and I truly do agree about Rudy Croes, his fingers are so deep into the illegal pies on Aruba he could never have afforded for this case to be solved. I also do not think the dutch including the queen mother herself, ever truly just look the other way, I think they too financially benefit behind the scenes. It might be time for that monarchy to have some vivid examination, I don't think it will happen in the queen's lifetime but it may for her heirs. As for your remark about Hurrican Betico and the goat's ass, I wish you could have seen me nearly falling out of my chair in laughter when I read that at midnight last night. 

Tyler - I'd like to feel Mos is trying and perhaps he is, but I think the mindset of criminals before victims is so ingrained into the dutch culture that part of our struggle throughout, has been due to how foreign that is to each of us and how hard for us to digest and be cognizant of. I think Mos' job is damage control, I think he was only sent when the stuck financial pig of Aruba continued to bleed copiously. I don't think his mandate was to ever solve the case, but I do think he's smart enough to not publicly work against De Vries now. This was the ripple/kink they didn't expect, that De Vries would beat them at their own game with a videotape broadcast to the world. To those who post they wish De Vries had saved the tape to protect it for prosecution purposes, trust me, it would have gone into that drawer with all the other key evidence that keeps disappearing here. He HAD to broadcast it, it was the only hope of driving some measure of accountability by utilizing the forces external to Aruba and even Holland, to come to bear on this.

I think De Vries' very existence and his success is evidence that not all of the dutch agree with their justice system, or support it. The fact that man is still alive is proof of that, he's smart and has had to be, or he would have been six feet under long ago. We do owe him a big debt for he's done more to support all the work done here, than anyone with the exception of our Hurricane Betico and Red and SM. We need to remember Tom too, Klaas and so many others who made such a commitment to this site.

Jossy is surely a mixed bag and I don't wish to diminish what he's done, I just think we are wise to continue to question agendas in this case. When pieces of a puzzle don't fit we can't ignore that, we exercise caution.

I will have to be away in the arctic cold for a few days and won't have my personal PC in tow to be checking in, but I'll try to call our San and get an update when I can. I also hope everyone continues to be the precious support structure for this case, and that each of your realizes you have played a part in hopefully changing this world for the better. Change is hard, it always is, it's like pushing a heavy boulder uphill. But you have made a difference, a huge difference and hopefully that will eventually cascade across the world in so many good results.

As always, I stand with the girl and with Hurricane Betico.

[MumInOhio]

Hi teacat.....the visibility team...ran by GVC fathers. If you google VCB you should find it...it appears the site hasn't been updated forever and their house was for sale as of mid-December...not sure where they are now.

Same guy in charge of all the security tapes for hotels etc and also hires security guards....Caps please put him on the list...

[Auntiem]

teacat, don't forget the ripped part of Natalee's top, that they tried to pawn off as a "fishing net"????  The duct tape with the blonde hair.....oh, I forgot,that is the way surfers hold their hair back...ouch!!!!

[Auntiem]

   So, itis common knowledge that ABC paid a small fortune to Peter deVriess, for a "heavily edited" version of his "Joran tape" ?????  Why doesn't somebody copy, dub with English, and hit on another channel??  Copyrights????

[Buckeye]

DeVries has an article on his site regarding the two days of editing.  The Dutch did not see 20 hrs. either.  Chris Cuomo was in Holland during this time (I believe).

Hi None

I believe Mos was brought in as a strong PR guy.  His associate Dom had a history of commentaries.  The last fake push may have been for show before closing the case.  I would like to believe in his sincerity but I go with Janet...JQK didn't have much good to say after the face to face.  Mos can work the broadcast audience.  I'm just not sure why JQK believes that Karen J had her heart in it and was more committed.   

In Reality, I don't know enough background.

[teacat]

Hi teacat.....the visibility team...ran by GVC fathers. If you google VCB you should find it...it appears the site hasn't been updated forever and their house was for sale as of mid-December...not sure where they are now.

Same guy in charge of all the security tapes for hotels etc and also hires security guards....Caps please put him on the list...

Gotcha...thanks for bringing me up to speed. I just googled and read the SM post on April 21 2006 concerning GVC and Visibility Team info. So why would a kid, picked up on suspicion of foul play mention something like this in his statement:

On Monday, May 30, 2005, around 01:15, we walked with our guest to Deepak’s car. I with my brother in the front of his car. Joran sat with the white girl in the back seat. The girl spoke with Deepak and not with me. My brother drove twice around with his car and I saw that near Dunkin Donuts a group of the Visibility Team stood.

Does this strike anyone else as odd?  I keep thinking to myself that this is all within 24 hours of her disappearance, all before the 3 players and G-D knows who else might be involved had a chance to REALLY work up an elaborate story that clouded the truth and distorted the facts. Why would the youngest and supposedly most naive guy present mention seeing a group of security agents? Would YOU recognize or even take notice of such a thing UNLESS you were up to No GOOD?!

I still come back to the first few hours as being crucial for discovering what truly happened.

BTW, dontcha just LOVE how he says we walked with "our guest"? <hurl!>

[Buckeye]

Part of a Dutch article was posted by Back Tulip on RU (with the link).  It is interesting:

Bomvol was de zaal in het gebouw van de Utrechtse Universiteitsbibliotheek, want daar behandelde prof. dr. Willem Wagenaar, emeritus hoogleraar in de rechtspsychologie, de vraag : ’Heeft Joran eigenlijk wel een echte bekentenis gedaan?’

[...]

Waarom dus legt iemand een valse bekentenis af? Hier onderscheidt de professor drie groepen. Ten eerste de groep van ’zotten’. „Die lezen over een zaak iets in de krant en gaan dan bekennen.” Na de ontvoering en moord op Gerrit-Jan Heijn meldden zich tien daders.

De tweede groep bestaat uit mensen die de echte dader willen beschermen. Een vader die opkomt voor een dochter. Of een crimineel die een andere crimineel beschermt.

De derde groep bekent ’onder druk’, in een politieverhoor. Er zijn er zelfs die er dan zelf in gaan geloven. „Die zijn helemaal slecht af.”


Bomvol was the hall in the building of the Utrechtse universities library, for there treated professor. Dr.  Has Willem Wagenaar, emeritus professor in the right psychology, the question:' Joran done actual well a real confession?' 

[..] 

Why does thus someone take off a false confession?  Here the professor distinguishes three groups.  Firstly the group of' fools'. "That read over an affair something in the paper and then will confess."  After the abduction and murder of Gerrit-Jan Heijn, ten perpetrators reported. 

The second group consists of men that the real perpetrators want to protect.  A father that come up for a daughter.  Or a criminal that someone else criminal protects. 

The third group confesses' under busily', in a police interrogation.  There are will believe there even that in it then self. "That be totally badly finished." 


http://www.trouw.nl/deverdieping/dossiers/article913249.ece/Was_het_een_bekentenis

[sharon]

Oh, Anna, all along I thought it was just pontificating to impress Robin but I believe you have found the origins of the problem and no doubt the genesis of the Orweillien gasbaggery itself.

      I'm sorry, I haven't  been here that long,  and this makes no sense to me, (esp when I, too, need coffee) Who was "pontificating to impress Robin (Holloway??)???

Auntiem -- I think they are referring to Mip$hit

[San]

     Good morning monks!   I just jumped out of bed with a big question.

       Why does Patrick never ask Joran what he thinks caused the "so called"  seizure and death of Natalee.  He goes into coma stuff...but never the cause!!!
       Peter, himself on one tape says he does not believe that a young person just dies of having too much to drink.  I am assuming that Peter was discussing the tapes with Patrick and viewing them during this "sting" .....so why did Peter NOT tell Patrick to ask Joran the cause of her death.  He could've said...  "hey man, so why after fooling around on the beach did this girl die, did you give her any drugs"?

      My other question.......Joran had done this before, I believe in his apartment....why didn't he take Natalee there????  We know he did not, because it was searched...that is, it was the ONLY area on the Sloot property ALLOWED to be searched.... the fact that Paulus had his big wig friend "cop" and /or Judge there, to prevent the police from searching the rest of the property is more than just a little suspicious to me.
 

I find it strange that Patrick didn't ask that question either.

Joran took Natalee to the apartment.  Even the ALE mentioned something about them not being on the beach.  I believe Natalee's DNA was found in Joran's apartment but we will never get the right answer from Aruba.  Look what they did with all the evidence.  KJ hand delivered evidence to Holland and we never heard a word about it anymore.

I think Patrick asked enough questions for Joran to hang himself in public opinion but not get him arrested.

School is still out in regards to Patrick with me.  I know a lot of people feel he is a hero for doing this for the family in trying to get the truth but I just feel there is something up with him.  This is just my opinion.

[WhiskeyGirl]

On Monday, May 30, 2005, around 01:15, we walked with our guest to Deepak’s car. I with my brother in the front of his car. Joran sat with the white girl in the back seat. The girl spoke with Deepak and not with me. My brother drove twice around with his car and I saw that near Dunkin Donuts a group of the Visibility Team stood.

Where is this from?  Is this the statement where they turn to avoid the Visibility Team or the police?

IIRC, the Visibility Team includes members of ALE.

[Nut44x4]

 I believe you're correct on the US getting an edited  version...which leads me to another question WHY???  Why are we not getting the tape in it's entirety, or at least containing all the facts.
    To edit out any part admitting to drugging Natalee makes no sense!!

There are apx. 20 hours taped. Some of which has nothing to do with the case, just Patrick and Joran talking about other stuff. What would you suggest? A mini-series on TV of the whole 20 hours? I think not.

[Auntiem]

DeVries has an article on his site regarding the two days of editing.  The Dutch did not see 20 hrs. either.  Chris Cuomo was in Holland during this time (I believe).

     <snipped>  During Nancy Grace's interview with Beth(Feb. I believe they both mentioned that a more complete version was viewed in Holland and that it was more shocking than what we saw.  I don't understand why the "complete" version wasn't shown here.  Chris Cuomo doen't speak Dutch and while it might be interesting to view Joran in a car smoking and talking......there is no way to know what he is saying.

[WhiskeyGirl]

Someone on another blog stated that Aruba won ‘the war’.  Did they also win the battle?

What are the traditional costs of war?  IIRC, the victors are left with a large bill.  It costs time and money to wage war.  What is the return to Aruba for expending those resources? 

What were they trying to accomplish during this war?

Who has reaped monetary rewards?   What are the rewards of victory?  Where is the celebration?  When will Aruba reward their heroes?

Where is the victory monument at the airport to welcome visitors?

[Tylergal]

Not sure how many people caught it but the same night Peter was on with Chris Cuomo, I caught Glenn Beck program.

Mickey Sherman and another international attorney were on there and they were asking why would anyone vacation in Aruba? 

The host (substituting for Beck) said if they don't convict Joran after this video, Aruba can board up the hotels and motels and drift off to Bermuda.

[teacat]

On Monday, May 30, 2005, around 01:15, we walked with our guest to Deepak’s car. I with my brother in the front of his car. Joran sat with the white girl in the back seat. The girl spoke with Deepak and not with me. My brother drove twice around with his car and I saw that near Dunkin Donuts a group of the Visibility Team stood.

Where is this from?  Is this the statement where they turn to avoid the Visibility Team or the police?

IIRC, the Visibility Team includes members of ALE.

I found it under Important Documents....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=d3b1ecd0f8d996ee40dfe39286a28f3c&topic=330.0

[Tylergal]

DeVries has an article on his site regarding the two days of editing.  The Dutch did not see 20 hrs. either.  Chris Cuomo was in Holland during this time (I believe).

      <snipped>  During Nancy Grace's interview with Beth(Feb. I believe they both mentioned that a more complete version was viewed in Holland and that it was more shocking than what we saw.  I don't understand why the "complete" version wasn't shown here.  Chris Cuomo doen't speak Dutch and while it might be interesting to view Joran in a car smoking and talking......there is no way to know what he is saying.

I watched the Dutch version.  It was much more entailed.  I think some of the language Joran used might not be greeted with a smile by our FCC.  Those nasty old rules, you know.

[San]

DeVries has an article on his site regarding the two days of editing.  The Dutch did not see 20 hrs. either.  Chris Cuomo was in Holland during this time (I believe).

Hi None

I believe Mos was brought in as a strong PR guy.  His associate Dom had a history of commentaries.  The last fake push may have been for show before closing the case.   I would like to believe in his sincerity but I go with Janet...JQK didn't have much good to say after the face to face.  Mos can work the broadcast audience.  I'm just not sure why JQK believes that Karen J had her heart in it and was more committed.   

In Reality, I don't know enough background.

Buckeye I agree.  There was a reason why Mos was brought in this case and that was his experience with the media.  Mos never had any good intentions and that last push that he did was a disaster.

I believe the reason Kelly liked KJ better was because she gave him more information.  Let's not forget it was KJ who charged Paulus with Premeditated Murder and Guido with Heavy Battery.  How would she know this unless she had the evidence.  In the beginning she listened to the Chief of Police who was Paulus' best friend and arrested the two security guards.  Was she playing along then and going with what she was told and taking Paulus' best friends word that those guards had something to do with Natalee's disappearance.  Did she later find out that they in fact were not involved and she released them.  I believe she started to work the case and when Paulus was brought in on charges of premeditated murder the higher ups lowered the boom on her authority and said you do what we tell you to do and you will be rewarded appropriately (meaning get in line with the rest).  We have Marianne Croes to thank for letting that little tid bid slip about the charges against Paulus.  Because after that she was never see again.  That's what they get for putting a young inexperienced person in front of our media.

So now what did Aruba do they hired Mos who is a media expert.