Natalee Case Discussion #728 2/10 - 2/11/08

[WhiskeyGirl]

What does Beth have after saying good-bye to her daughter at the airport?  Did she ever imagine that she would never see her daughter alive after she said good-bye?

Robert H. Jackson, in an opening statement once said – “The wrongs which we seek to condemn and punish have been so calculated, so malignant, and so devastating, that civilization cannot tolerate their being ignored, because it cannot survive their being repeated.”

Will anyone ever condemn and punish those that were last known to be with Natalee Holloway? 

[Silverfox]

Look at the father...

Look at the father's close professional friends= a good old' boy's club that seems to like drugged young women, right?  Well, hypothetically speaking...right?

Look at the casino video of Nat, Joran and ...ahem...Paulus...

See how Nat seems repulsed by Paulus and actually moves away from him?

consider all the little Freudian slips here and there, including the "Your own father"... and the recent Daury cloak...

look at the way judges make a ruling to detain, catch a plane back to their own island and upon arriving fax back a release...

look at how search warrants are modified by judges on premises...

look at how prosecutors get sent on vacations and upon their return suddenly have turned "to the dark side"...

This entire case ill go down in history...corruption and evil at their very worst...sinfully true...

this is why they are losing the PR war now...

the heat is going to get turned up and the dominoes will fall

bank on it!!!!

[teacat]

What would be really educational would be to get a true transcript of the entirety of 20 hours tapings.....and then have it translated verbatim.  Can you see us now, pouring over it line by line...... I can.

[Auntiem]

There are apx. 20 hours taped. Some of which has nothing to do with the case, just Patrick and Joran talking about other stuff. What would you suggest? A mini-series on TV of the whole 20 hours? I think not.

               <snipped> No, I don't want to see a miniseries......I want Joran to confess to his crime!!!!   He does not jeapordize himself on what I saw on 20/20.  To what did he admit?  Having sex with Natalee, who he says ....."she wanted it, she really wanted it.."  that's not RAPE. Suddenly, when he was going to ask her to perform another sexual act, he realized she wasn't breathing, he panicked (sp)  and called a friend for help. He is admitting to NOTHING  IMO.  Poor guy was gonna cry......give me a break.....what American jury would find this kid guilty, if it ever got to court????

      JMO.....this is not a confession of rape and murder.  It is a confession of an egocentric sociopath who has no remorse for what he did.....but it is so carefully worded, that there is no admition of what he really is guilty.  Drugged, kidnapped raped........where in that tape does he admit to these......nowhere........to me this confession, is NOTHING!!!!  deVriess had better come up with the......"rest of the story"!!!   JMHO

[WhiskeyGirl]

How many people say goodbye to loved ones at train stations?  How many spend a lifetime looking for any shred of evidence that tells them what happened?  How many die never knowing?

How many people never see loved ones after they are taken away by the police?

Who stops the shovel from covering up the evidence of mass executions?  Who cares that someone in the pit may still be alive?  Does anyone call for assistance?  Dial 911?  Or, do they keep their shovels moving, continue filling in the hole?  Following orders?  Taking direction from their superiors?

How hard is it to dig a hole on Aruba? 

[Buckeye]

San

Exactly, any prosecutor could have been sent across the pond.  Why this one?  Isn't Lugo really the head one?

Auntiem

I don't believe that Peter DeVries is holding back the smoking gun.  I wish Patrick would have been more probing but he really isn't a trained interrogator. It is what it is.....which is a whole lot more than we had before a lay person got involved.  I think we've all wanted a full confession, from day one. I believe there was one at one point.

[WhiskeyGirl]

There are apx. 20 hours taped. Some of which has nothing to do with the case, just Patrick and Joran talking about other stuff. What would you suggest? A mini-series on TV of the whole 20 hours? I think not.

               <snipped> No, I don't want to see a miniseries......I want Joran to confess to his crime!!!!   He does not jeapordize himself on what I saw on 20/20.  To what did he admit?  Having sex with Natalee, who he says ....."she wanted it, she really wanted it.."  that's not RAPE. Suddenly, when he was going to ask her to perform another sexual act, he realized she wasn't breathing, he panicked (sp)  and called a friend for help. He is admitting to NOTHING  IMO.  Poor guy was gonna cry......give me a break.....what American jury would find this kid guilty, if it ever got to court????

      JMO.....this is not a confession of rape and murder.  It is a confession of an egocentric sociopath who has no remorse for what he did.....but it is so carefully worded, that there is no admition of what he really is guilty.  Drugged, kidnapped raped........where in that tape does he admit to these......nowhere........to me this confession, is NOTHING!!!!  deVriess had better come up with the......"rest of the story"!!!   JMHO

Consensual sex has been used as an excuse before.  My bold for emphasis -

On the night of July third, 1996, Becky, who had just celebrated her 17th birthday in Bermuda with Jasmine and her family, was murdered in what has been described as among "the worst, most brutal, most animal sexually-depraved, most violent and inhuman murder of any woman or man anywhere in the world"... (Quote from Bermuda Online).

Why weren't they charged with the obvious crimes in the first place? Because some in the judiciary reportedly bought a known criminal's absurd allegation that sex was consensual--despite existing evidence otherwise.

http://www.rebeccamiddleton.org/

[WhiskeyGirl]

Why does this sh*t always happen to me?  How many times?  Do you remember?

How many people have a gold mine dropped into their laps?  How many reap millions and millions for the lies from their mouths?

How many would choose to live obscure lives and hope that people would forget?  How many go on TV and present themselves in an arrogant manner?

[Buckeye]

He says he wasn't drunk and says that she was but "knew what she was doing".  I guess then it becomes a question is someone can cnsent that is under the influence.  I don't know why they haven't gone for any lesser charges.  Maybe the punishment is so light, even if convicted, it would amount to time served.  From previous articles, I don't think the Dutch are very harsh with any sexual perpetrators.

[WhiskeyGirl]

2/8/2008 11:09:00 AM   

'I know who the killers are'

Top cop is thwarted, however, by the silence of witnesses

The Commissioner of Police believes he knows who committed a rash of unsolved murders on Bermuda's streets.

George Jackson says there is a small core of violent criminals - four or five individuals - who should be tried for the killing of Aquil Richardson, Shuandae Jones, and Jason Lightbourne.

However, he says his hands are tied because key witnesses are choosing to remain in the shadows.

In an exclusive interview, the Commissioner tells the Bermuda Sun of his frustration that Bermudians appear less and less willing to help police catch gang members.

Mr. Jackson is particularly candid on teenager Jason Lightbourne, who died in a hail of bullets on the streets of Paget in 2006. Not only are detectives confident of who killed Mr. Lightbourne, but they have also identified one key witness who could help put the matter before the courts.

"We have been pursuing that particular lead for some time," Mr. Jackson says. "Hopefully the individual will change his mind. Hopefully he will stand up and be a man, because Mr. Lightbourne's family have been waiting too long."

read more here -
http://www.bermudasun.bm/main.asp?SectionID=24&SubSectionID=270&ArticleID=36534

[Auntiem]

He says he wasn't drunk and says that she was but "knew what she was doing".  I guess then it becomes a question is someone can cnsent that is under the influence.  I don't know why they haven't gone for any lesser charges.  Maybe the punishment is so light, even if convicted, it would amount to time served.  From previous articles, I don't think the Dutch are very harsh with any sexual perpetrators.

[/color]
           All he admits to on the deVriess tape is being part of disposing of a dead body....at least he thought she was dead..until Patrick injects that she could have been in  a coma..(how about unconscious/passed out??)  I believe that the penalty for the above mentioned, admitted to, crime, in Aruba, is 6 mos. And, yes, probably would be considered time served.

[Rob]

He says he wasn't drunk and says that she was but "knew what she was doing".  I guess then it becomes a question is someone can cnsent that is under the influence.  I don't know why they haven't gone for any lesser charges.  Maybe the punishment is so light, even if convicted, it would amount to time served.  From previous articles, I don't think the Dutch are very harsh with any sexual perpetrators.

Right Buckeye, when Taco informed Joran he would be charged with Rape for having sex with an unconscious person, suddenly Natalee was not drunk.

Using that statement - one could deduce - something bad happened.

If the Dutch let him off this time - no one should have any doubt what's going on here.

He can't keep changing previous statements to fit in the new circumstances.

So, in a sense, the Authorities have decided based on his revised previous statements that there was not enough info. Now, the hidden camera of Godfather Peter Freeze has captured a stunning version of one portion of the event. The disposal - which he - Joran - has intimate knowledge.

Intimate knowledge of disposal = participant in the crime.

[private eye]

There are apx. 20 hours taped. Some of which has nothing to do with the case, just Patrick and Joran talking about other stuff. What would you suggest? A mini-series on TV of the whole 20 hours? I think not.

               <snipped> No, I don't want to see a miniseries......I want Joran to confess to his crime!!!!   He does not jeapordize himself on what I saw on 20/20.  To what did he admit?  Having sex with Natalee, who he says ....."she wanted it, she really wanted it.."  that's not RAPE. Suddenly, when he was going to ask her to perform another sexual act, he realized she wasn't breathing, he panicked (sp)  and called a friend for help. He is admitting to NOTHING  IMO.  Poor guy was gonna cry......give me a break.....what American jury would find this kid guilty, if it ever got to court????

      JMO.....this is not a confession of rape and murder.  It is a confession of an egocentric sociopath who has no remorse for what he did.....but it is so carefully worded, that there is no admition of what he really is guilty.  Drugged, kidnapped raped........where in that tape does he admit to these......nowhere........to me this confession, is NOTHING!!!!  deVriess had better come up with the......"rest of the story"!!!   JMHO

What he admitted to is conspiring to have a girl that has not been pronounced dead, which is a legal act accomplished by a protocol established by law, that he willingly admits could be alive, that he wanted her disposed of either way, be taken miles off the coast into the ocean to be dumped into so that she will never be found. Based upon the fact that she was not legally pronounced dead and Joran claiming he didn't know that she was dead, indeed claiming she easily could have been alive, the law would have to treat this as a murder case.

If the body could be recovered, if an autopsy could be performed, then the charge could be reduced if the findings proved that she was dead before she was drowned.

1) Premeditated murder- He thought, he developed a plan- he called a friend-he accomplished the act

2) Obstruction of justice

3) He attempted to frame 2 security guards-

4) Perjury as he was a witness to number 3

Paulus should be immediately disbarred for obstruction of justice, purjury, framing the 2 guards.

We now have a case where a crime has been committed against an American abroad where the perp has admitted doing the deed and the host government has declined to prosecute the case. There are laws that allow the US to bring this type of perp to the US to prosecute, especially if the host country allows it.


The trouble is, and surely by now it is getting obvious, that the Dutch locals in Aruba are black mailing Rudy and HE CANNOT PROSECUTE JORAN, PERIOD, unless he is willing to go to jail himself, lose his position in Aruba, etc. It is not a possibility that Joran be prosecuted unless Rudy is brought down first, for crimes unrelated to Natalee. Once Rudy comes down, then the house of cards crumble. The dirty Dutch are exposed, the drug lords are exposed, and the OM's are exposed. The amount of money the drug lords launder is so immense that there is no telling who and what all will be exposed if Rudy is exposed for prosecuting Joran.

Why pray tell is Holland's government up in arms about the situation and our President still cannot even publicly acknowledging that what is happening is unacceptable and morally reprehensible? Just what does the government of Aruba have to do to a US citizen before it is his place to say, NO More?

Aruba will no longer object if we step in, Rudy is screaming for a solution.

[Buckeye]

In the tape, Joran does say:

Joran: I see also, she's drunk, Patrick, really drunk, But I thought, I'll just take the girl for a little while and f*** her.

Now, I believe that is intent, with someone not up to consenting.

[Rob]

The reason for taking down a formal statement is to get a person on the record and compare that info to what is gathered and known. To see if the person is telling the truth. If the statements do not jive, one can deduce that the person is concealing knowledge and deserves further scrutiny.

In this case, Joran and Paulus are concealing intimate knowledge. Only info the perps would know.

[Nut44x4]

Natalee's case has its own summary page at ad.nl
Many articles, although of course in Dutch, can be seen here w/ reader comments.
http://www.ad.nl/holloway/

[private eye]

The easy crime is to prosecute the 3 boys for purjury in connection with the 2 innocent men. They were not suspects to that charge, they were witnesses according to them. That won't preclude them being charged to greater crimes either.

[Buckeye]

The reason for taking down a formal statement is to get a person on the record and compare that info to what is gathered and known. To see if the person is telling the truth. If the statements do not jive, one can deduce that the person is concealing knowledge and deserves further scrutiny.

In this case, Joran and Paulus are concealing intimate knowledge. Only info the perps would know.

And what's with Jorg's statement that the Dutch do not have perjury?  Is there no incentive or fear of punishment if one does not tell the truth?  I can see the right to remain silent but is there really a right to lie?? 

[Rob]

Checkmate.

The Dutch re-arrest Joran tomorrow morning. Extradite him to Aruba.

The onus is on Aruba, not the Dutch.

Force Aruba to act.

Throw it all on Aruba - where it belongs.

[private eye]

This is a campaign year, and I think we have been pressuring the wrong governments. It is time the media take these questions to Bush, and the candidates. We have an absolute and legitimate right to know and it is absurd that Bush has not been publicly questioned about this case. If him responding is such a dman big deal, if this is such an awkward question to force him to address, then we can assume that some how the US is dirty in Aruba as well.