Natalee Case Discussion #728 2/10 - 2/11/08

[NorthernStar]

Yeppers Caesu, I believe time being spent isn't about how to arrest the bastard but how to spin not prosecuting him without making the Dutch system look corrupt.

I agree. I think they are franticly working on a "satisfactory" solution for their little problem. That is how to bring the case before a judge without burning all those involved. Joran isnt their concern, its who and what to sacrifice in the process. It has always been a game of interests, it still is, that wont change. What has changed is the outcome they pursue. Joran will stand trial, there's no avoiding that anymore. Who will go down with his has no become the question.

If there is one thing that has been pervasive throughout this entire investigation it is the Dutch system has no backbone. Zero, zip, nada. It takes an atricious murder like Theo van Gogh for them to get the nerve to even prosecute, and of course he is one of their own elite. Only 28 life sentences given out to convicted murderers in Holland in the last 67 years?

Does an American victim even stand a chance?[/b]

The Dutch system differs from the Anglo-Saxon system in its emphasis on "punishment".

Where in the Anglo-Saxon system punishment (or even revenge) is very much part of the idea of Justice, that aspect has much less weight in the Dutch philosophy.
The Dutch system is much more focused on rehabilitation. How can we "fix" this person and make him/her a productive member of society again. Their is a tendency to avoid long sentences as this hinders the rehabilitation process. People who serve long sentences tend to get used to the prison-culture.

Both systems have their pro's and cons. We do have less recidivism. We don’t have many people in prison, where as the US has the highest number of prisoners per capita. The other side of the medallion is that Dutch often don’t feel justice is being done. How could you when people who commit murder get of with a few years time? For years the Dutch have been asking for more severe sentences and there is some change but it has proven to be a lengthy process. It is however part of the ongoing political discussion in the Netherlands. There are now proposals for mandatory minimum sentences, things like that.

I believe I have read or heard on news there has been a public outcry for lengthier sentences following the van Gogh murder, and your system was not very lenient with this guy.  Unfortunately, I hear his family are taunted and bullied constantly.

Hmm dont know about that one. Keep in mind that Van Goghs case is often exploited for political agendas.

But yes there is a constant public outcry for more lengthier sentences. And of course even more in these high profile cases. The same with Pim Fortuyn. And then public opinion no doubt becomes a factor. But when it happens to just your ordinary Joe? I'm often surprised why people taking the law into their own hand is still rare.

[caesu]

Yeppers Caesu, I believe time being spent isn't about how to arrest the bastard but how to spin not prosecuting him without making the Dutch system look corrupt.

I agree. I think they are franticly working on a "satisfactory" solution for their little problem. That is how to bring the case before a judge without burning all those involved. Joran isnt their concern, its who and what to sacrifice in the process. It has always been a game of interests, it still is, that wont change. What has changed is the outcome they pursue. Joran will stand trial, there's no avoiding that anymore. Who will go down with his has no become the question.

If there is one thing that has been pervasive throughout this entire investigation it is the Dutch system has no backbone. Zero, zip, nada. It takes an atricious murder like Theo van Gogh for them to get the nerve to even prosecute, and of course he is one of their own elite. Only 28 life sentences given out to convicted murderers in Holland in the last 67 years?

Does an American victim even stand a chance?[/b]

The Dutch system differs from the Anglo-Saxon system in its emphasis on "punishment".

Where in the Anglo-Saxon system punishment (or even revenge) is very much part of the idea of Justice, that aspect has much less weight in the Dutch philosophy.
The Dutch system is much more focused on rehabilitation. How can we "fix" this person and make him/her a productive member of society again. Their is a tendency to avoid long sentences as this hinders the rehabilitation process. People who serve long sentences tend to get used to the prison-culture.

Both systems have their pro's and cons. We do have less recidivism. We don’t have many people in prison, where as the US has the highest number of prisoners per capita. The other side of the medallion is that Dutch often don’t feel justice is being done. How could you when people who commit murder get of with a few years time? For years the Dutch have been asking for more severe sentences and there is some change but it has proven to be a lengthy process. It is however part of the ongoing political discussion in the Netherlands. There are now proposals for mandatory minimum sentences, things like that.

I believe I have read or heard on news there has been a public outcry for lengthier sentences following the van Gogh murder, and your system was not very lenient with this guy.  Unfortunately, I hear his family are taunted and bullied constantly.

Van Gogh's family taunted and bullied??
where did you hear that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Bouyeri

Life imprisonment

Not sure that I did not read it on line, maybe from an English newspaper or other European paper.  I read extensively on line almost every single night, so it is hard for me to recall, but I think I read someplace the van Gogh family/children were being harassed by those of Muslim orientation.

http://www.planet.nl/planet/show/id=62967/contentid=603229/sc=1437d8

you are right that's was in 2005, i vaguely remember this.
Theo's son got attacked twice on street by Muslim youth.
his grandparents were very disappointed with the police, OM, AIVD (secret service).

...

[Tylergal]

I think the USA laws are pretty much our version of the European laws.  I often say "as goes England on its overall responses and changing laws, so goes America."  I am quite perplexed with England adopting Sharia law and certainly had hoped they could hold that off but it seems unlikely.

Our elections this year could determine whether or not Sharia law will become a part of our constitution or whether our constitution may even be suspended.

[Observer]

02 - 10 - 2008 / 8:45 p.m. (G.M.T.)

What's Joran's parents' case?

A few weeks ago, the parents of Joran van der Sloot appeared with me in the Dutch talk show Pauw & Witteman. They asserted that Joran was a boy with a good upbringing, who always treated girls with respect. They also stated that if they had any indication that Joran was indeed involved in the disappearance of Natalee, they would have gone to the police immediately.

- BORDERING ON NAÏVITÉ -

On this occasion, Joran’s mother – who was in the Netherlands at the time of Natalee’s disappearance – gave me the impression of a kind, honest woman, who loves her son dearly, but has no idea about what really made him tick. However, even naïveté has its limits, which I feel she should have reached after watching our program.

Especially in the USA, Joran’s father is seen as someone who knows more about the case than he is willing to let on. He was indeed on Aruba at the time of the disappearance, and later advised his son not to say anything to the police during questioning. According to Joran, his father has devoted himself to filing compensation claims.

In conversations recorded by us, Joran expressly denies that his father was involved in Natalee’s disappearance. However, many see his assertion that on the night in question, his ‘helper’ urged him to ‘get home quickly because he had to go to school the next day’, as an indication that his father could indeed be involved.

- SMUGGLED MOBILE PHONE -

There is also something else that Joran admitted to Patrick in some detail. He said that when visiting him in custody after his initial arrest, his father Paul van der Sloot, who was a Judge at the time, smuggled a mobile phone to his son. The story comes across as highly plausible, and implies an unforgivable transgression by the Judge/attorney.

This story, casually related by Joran, could understandably cast Joran’s parents’ role in a very different light from what they would have liked us to believe during Pauw & Witteman. It is, after all, in their best interests that everything Joran has stated be dismissed as fabrications. Any veracity afforded to Joran’s statements will effectively also ‘hang’ his father for smuggling the mobile phone into the prison. In that case, he would undoubtedly be disbarred as an attorney, with his reputation in Aruba in tatters. Until recently, the parents enjoyed a reasonably respected position on the island. That reputation will be history, should it be verified that Paul van der Sloot deliberately sabotaged the investigation into the disappearance that has caused Aruba so much damage.

- REPORTING TO THE POLICE -

If the parents’ earlier pronouncements were in earnest, one would expect that following our program – during which their son admits his involvement no fewer than ten times – they would confront their son saying: ‘enough is enough. We are going to the police and you will tell them everything that happened. You will not reserve your right to remain silent for another instant.’

This did not occur, however. Instead, Joran issued a statement through his attorney, saying that all his pronouncements were made while under the influence of marijuana joints and that his litany of admissions is a bizarre fabrication. Surely the parents must realize that this is a cheap attempt at a cop-out, that actually also works to the benefit of father Paul. If everything is a fabrication, then so is the story about the mobile phone. Contrarily, if everything is in fact true, it will undoubtedly be assumed that the story about the smuggled mobile phone is true as well, with appropriate consequences.

- NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE -

Anyone who has done any thinking, or has themselves smoked marijuana, must surely realize that Joran’s story about the joints just doesn’t hold water. During the course of five separate drives, on different days – sometimes separated by more than a week – Joran made extensive confessions. His confession was confirmed and repeated during each subsequent drive. Not once did he say that last time, while under the influence of marijuana, he had been sprouting a lot of hot air. On the contrary. ‘Coincidentally’, the bulk of his admissions fall perfectly in line with the vein of the earlier police investigation, and in them, Joran provides answers to several open-ended questions (how he got home, what he did with his shoes, the involvement of the Kalpoe brothers etc. etc.).

Furthermore, I have to point out that there were several drives during which he either DID NOT smoke marijuana, or only did so AFTER discussing Natalee’s case. The TV footage shows this quite clearly. He made and/or repeated confessions even while he was ‘as sober as a Judge’. Or does Joran now allege that when Patrick came to pick him up him at around noon, he had already got stoned sitting on his grandma’s sofa?

- CONFESSION COMPULSION? -

But even if he was already stoned – which I don’t believe – the question remains whether he would suddenly start to confess to all manner of bizarre crimes of which he is actually innocent? Or would the parents and grandma now like us to believe that he was in the daily habit of confessing to unsolved murders each time he rolled a reefer??? Of course not. A marijuana joint does not have that effect at all. If it did, the corridors of police stations in the Netherlands and elsewhere would be chock-full of marijuana users, spontaneously confessing to all manner of unsolved crimes. That is, of course, not the case. Joran’s story is untenable. In my opinion It's simply the only excuse he could think of to explain his constant confessions – an explanation that suits his parents just fine. After all, it is now also in their best interests….

Peter R. DeVries

http://www.peterrdevries.com/news-parents-joran.htm

[Tylergal]

02 - 10 - 2008 / 8:45 p.m. (G.M.T.)

What's Joran's parents' case?

A few weeks ago, the parents of Joran van der Sloot appeared with me in the Dutch talk show Pauw & Witteman. They asserted that Joran was a boy with a good upbringing, who always treated girls with respect. They also stated that if they had any indication that Joran was indeed involved in the disappearance of Natalee, they would have gone to the police immediately.

- BORDERING ON NAÏVITÉ -

On this occasion, Joran’s mother – who was in the Netherlands at the time of Natalee’s disappearance – gave me the impression of a kind, honest woman, who loves her son dearly, but has no idea about what really made him tick. However, even naïveté has its limits, which I feel she should have reached after watching our program.

Especially in the USA, Joran’s father is seen as someone who knows more about the case than he is willing to let on. He was indeed on Aruba at the time of the disappearance, and later advised his son not to say anything to the police during questioning. According to Joran, his father has devoted himself to filing compensation claims.

In conversations recorded by us, Joran expressly denies that his father was involved in Natalee’s disappearance. However, many see his assertion that on the night in question, his ‘helper’ urged him to ‘get home quickly because he had to go to school the next day’, as an indication that his father could indeed be involved.

- SMUGGLED MOBILE PHONE -

There is also something else that Joran admitted to Patrick in some detail. He said that when visiting him in custody after his initial arrest, his father Paul van der Sloot, who was a Judge at the time, smuggled a mobile phone to his son. The story comes across as highly plausible, and implies an unforgivable transgression by the Judge/attorney.

This story, casually related by Joran, could understandably cast Joran’s parents’ role in a very different light from what they would have liked us to believe during Pauw & Witteman. It is, after all, in their best interests that everything Joran has stated be dismissed as fabrications. Any veracity afforded to Joran’s statements will effectively also ‘hang’ his father for smuggling the mobile phone into the prison. In that case, he would undoubtedly be disbarred as an attorney, with his reputation in Aruba in tatters. Until recently, the parents enjoyed a reasonably respected position on the island. That reputation will be history, should it be verified that Paul van der Sloot deliberately sabotaged the investigation into the disappearance that has caused Aruba so much damage.

- REPORTING TO THE POLICE -

If the parents’ earlier pronouncements were in earnest, one would expect that following our program – during which their son admits his involvement no fewer than ten times – they would confront their son saying: ‘enough is enough. We are going to the police and you will tell them everything that happened. You will not reserve your right to remain silent for another instant.’

This did not occur, however. Instead, Joran issued a statement through his attorney, saying that all his pronouncements were made while under the influence of marijuana joints and that his litany of admissions is a bizarre fabrication. Surely the parents must realize that this is a cheap attempt at a cop-out, that actually also works to the benefit of father Paul. If everything is a fabrication, then so is the story about the mobile phone. Contrarily, if everything is in fact true, it will undoubtedly be assumed that the story about the smuggled mobile phone is true as well, with appropriate consequences.

- NO SMOKE WITHOUT FIRE -

Anyone who has done any thinking, or has themselves smoked marijuana, must surely realize that Joran’s story about the joints just doesn’t hold water. During the course of five separate drives, on different days – sometimes separated by more than a week – Joran made extensive confessions. His confession was confirmed and repeated during each subsequent drive. Not once did he say that last time, while under the influence of marijuana, he had been sprouting a lot of hot air. On the contrary. ‘Coincidentally’, the bulk of his admissions fall perfectly in line with the vein of the earlier police investigation, and in them, Joran provides answers to several open-ended questions (how he got home, what he did with his shoes, the involvement of the Kalpoe brothers etc. etc.).

Furthermore, I have to point out that there were several drives during which he either DID NOT smoke marijuana, or only did so AFTER discussing Natalee’s case. The TV footage shows this quite clearly. He made and/or repeated confessions even while he was ‘as sober as a Judge’. Or does Joran now allege that when Patrick came to pick him up him at around noon, he had already got stoned sitting on his grandma’s sofa?

- CONFESSION COMPULSION? -

But even if he was already stoned – which I don’t believe – the question remains whether he would suddenly start to confess to all manner of bizarre crimes of which he is actually innocent? Or would the parents and grandma now like us to believe that he was in the daily habit of confessing to unsolved murders each time he rolled a reefer??? Of course not. A marijuana joint does not have that effect at all. If it did, the corridors of police stations in the Netherlands and elsewhere would be chock-full of marijuana users, spontaneously confessing to all manner of unsolved crimes. That is, of course, not the case. Joran’s story is untenable. In my opinion It's simply the only excuse he could think of to explain his constant confessions – an explanation that suits his parents just fine. After all, it is now also in their best interests….

Peter R. DeVries

http://www.peterrdevries.com/news-parents-joran.htm

That looks like a very important document that deserves a place of honor tucked away for later reference.  I just want to save I love Peter dV.  He's a great advocate for justice.  I wish Dana had the opportunity to meet with him. I think Mark Furman is perhaps the only person in USA that comes close to Peter dV. 

[downloadingdaddy]

Brought this link over from the front page of sm. (hope it hasn't been posted here yet.) http://www.peterrdevries.com/news-parents-joran.htm
 Devries speaks his mind about Joran"s Parent"s

[downloadingdaddy]

OOps I see the article is being discussed alraedy sorry

[klaasend]

OOps I see the article is being discussed alraedy sorry

No problem at all!  I posted it a couple pages back too!  It's worth posting a few times!

[caesu]

I think the USA laws are pretty much our version of the European laws.  I often say "as goes England on its overall responses and changing laws, so goes America."  I am quite perplexed with England adopting Sharia law and certainly had hoped they could hold that off but it seems unlikely.

Our elections this year could determine whether or not Sharia law will become a part of our constitution or whether our constitution may even be suspended.

i was about to post that i didn't believe you.
then i did one google search and found this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7232661.stm

 

did you guys also follow the Ayaan Hirsi Ali story?
connected to Theo van Gogh.
she got very very badly treated by Balkenende and Hirsch Ballin and his predecessor Piet Hein Donner.
they wouldn't pay for her protection.
eventhough the killer of Theo van Gogh wrote on a letter he left on the chest of Theo that Ayaan Hirsi Ali would be next. the also knifed a poem to his chest.

funny story about Hirsch Ballin: years ago he was also justice minister.
he had to resign after his justice department was caught smuggling drugs.
some kind of badly run under-cover sting operation gone wrong...
i wonder how many people had to suffer for that disaster.

[Observer]

That looks like a very important document that deserves a place of honor tucked away for later reference.  I just want to save I love Peter dV.  He's a great advocate for justice.  I wish Dana had the opportunity to meet with him. I think Mark Furman is perhaps the only person in USA that comes close to Peter dV. 

I love him also Tylergal,I knew from the moment he did that first show that he was going to make a difference.

[klaasend]

 

I have no idea what they are saying but you have to watch this, LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGszbTAxbu4

[Altruist]

The family started the circling of phone calls spreading the word that Natalee was dead June 10, 2005. All of the relatives started arriving at Mrs. reynolds house on June 11, 2005, armed with food and flowers thinking that the burial process was underway, only to see on TV the gradual recanting of the confession by Joran. This activity began because the FBI said they witnessed the confession and that Natalee was definitely dead.

Now wtf is so secretive about that that the FBI won't publicly acknowledge it. Why do they not clear the air about what they saw and heard? It is absolutely insane and absurd.

I lost trust in the honesty of the government at a very early age. I lived near a plant that manufactured a large majority of the gunpowder used in the Viet Nam war. I used to go to the local elementary school to catch the bus to the high school. One morning when I arrived at the elementary school, my nylon stockings and slip I was wearing simply disintegrated, and it was difficult to breathe. The high school bus arrived and I went on to school, minus the slip and stockings. Later in the day, I was called to the principal's office. It seems that many of the elementary school children had been hospitalized with blistered lungs, and they wanted to know if I was okay. (I was.) The government denied that what happened had anything to do with the ammunitions plant. About 35 years later, an admission was finally made that the plant had accidentally released hydrochloric acid into the air, and that is what had damaged the lungs of all those elementary school students.

I have always believed that the FBI knew beyond a doubt that Natalee was dead, but they were willing to sacrifice that knowledge in pursuit of some aim of their own. IMO, that makes them part of the problem, not part of the answer.

Just wanted to know that you are certainly ON TO SOMETHING with the above post.  Just this week, no link sorry, watched a program think it was on PBS subject was AbuGraib & Gitmo & a memo had surfaced, FBI internal, stating very clearly that what was going on there was BAD & the agent stated in the FBI internal that it was imperative that the FBI distance themselves from this activity.  So LONG BEFORE we the American public became aware, through the photo's the FBI WAS AWARE & Muehler DID NOTHING TO STOP IT.  This follows along your line of thinking & demonstrates that it is highly probable.  I won't get into politics here but it just demonstrates that NO I do not believe that these government departments recognize WHO THEY WORK FOR, they work for & to the tune of what ever administration is in power, gee that sounds very similiar to how operations take place in Aruba, DOESN'T IT?

[caesu]

That looks like a very important document that deserves a place of honor tucked away for later reference.  I just want to save I love Peter dV.  He's a great advocate for justice.  I wish Dana had the opportunity to meet with him. I think Mark Furman is perhaps the only person in USA that comes close to Peter dV. 

I love him also Tylergal,I knew from the moment he did that first show that he was going to make a difference.

before the pauw&witteman talkshow did you know peter r. was on the case or not?
he had been very quiet about it before that, but that apparently was for a reason.

(i 've been reading beak on SM the comments you guys made during and of course especially after that show - very good reading!!) 
after that the ditch has started smelling more each day.

[klaasend]

caesu - yes we knew of DeVries and watched his first show on the case.  We've been waiting for him to do a followup program and he delivered BIG TIME! 

[caesu]

I have no idea what they are saying but you have to watch this, LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGszbTAxbu4

i've heard the audio but with video even better.
there are many many incredible funny things floating around. 

on the dutch fok-forum i proposed to split the sub-forum in funny and serious.
because i thought all the jokes were getting in the way of the serious important (imo) topics.

[klaasend]

I have no idea what they are saying but you have to watch this, LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lGszbTAxbu4

i've heard the audio but with video even better.
there are many many incredible funny things floating around. 

on the dutch fok-forum i proposed to split the sub-forum in funny and serious.
because i thought all the jokes were getting in the way of the serious important (imo) topics.

I'm laughing at the monkeys in it, LOL 

Time for me to call it a night.  GOODNIGHT ALL!

[caesu]

caesu - yes we knew of DeVries and watched his first show on the case.  We've been waiting for him to do a followup program and he delivered BIG TIME! 

 

i tell dutchies and they think i am crazy if i tell you guys are following the dutch media so extensively
and analyzing everything bit by bit.

[Tylergal]

caesu - yes we knew of DeVries and watched his first show on the case.  We've been waiting for him to do a followup program and he delivered BIG TIME! 

 

i tell dutchies and they think i am crazy if i tell you guys are following the dutch media so extensively
and analyzing everything bit by bit.

Well, we have a very good poster here, Anna, who is of Dutch ancestry and my husband is as well.  If I told you what our name is (our real name), you would know.  Hmmm, we might be related to Lorenzo.   

[Observer]

I have a feeling this will be a very big week..Everyone say a special prayer for Natalee

Natalee Holloway - Have You Seen Her
http://youtube.com/watch?v=z5T9oUoQBbk

[caesu]

i am just trying to think how Aruba/Dutch are going to spin this thing.
maybe keep him for a very very long time in his 'safe house'.
of course this means in fact house arrest on his on will. so but no officially imprisoned.

and than al of sudden Daury Rodriquez (who is totally unrelated - almost everybody knows by now) is found death.

then OM Aruba / Dutch say: told you! no witchhunt - let us solve this and go to sleep.

interesting reading might be: Shock Doctrine - Naomi Klein

essentually saying:
governments take advantage of a population in shock or confusion by forcing through major policy changes the population normaly wouldn't agree too.

also interesting might be:
trying to figure out which newsstories would have been on the frontpages or headlines if Peter R. wouldn't have broadcasted the tapes.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/1823120.stm