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Question: Will Joran be arrested?
Yes - 41 (33.3%)
No - 58 (47.2%)
No but will go to trial - 24 (19.5%)
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Author Topic: Natalee Case Discussion #728 2/10 - 2/11/08  (Read 264206 times)
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MumInOhio
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« Reply #820 on: February 11, 2008, 01:40:51 PM »

From Andre's PV:After Joran helped the girl, Joran and I walked around in the Excelsior casino. I saw the group of girls who were playing blackjack with Joran walk by, and I heard the girls say he should go to Carlos & Charlies later in the evening because they would like to meet him there. Joran told them not to worry, he would go.

Does anyone remember what time the casino video shows the girls leaving the table? Is it even in the video...likely not because then we would have seen that older man get up from the table and would be able to identify him.

from my notes...
Broughton’s 302 – can’t copy…so paraphrased
Broughton and Holloway had dinner 6-7. After that they went to casino to watch Mcvay gamble. Came across Joran who Natalee had met earlier in the day on the beach , At 8.40 Natalee switched to a drink containing vodka. Fat, Chinese or Hawaiian guy arrives
.
9.45…Broughton, Holloway, Joran and others go to the hotel pool bar. 5minutes later Joran leaves and Natalee asks about C&Cs.

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Tamikosmom
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« Reply #821 on: February 11, 2008, 01:42:24 PM »

Obviously ... there is no meeting of minds regarding what the two prosecutors in the Natalee Holloway determines is sufficient evidence for detainment and ... what the judiciary determines is sufficient evidence for detainment.

Something is not right.  All formal suspects in the Natalee Holloway case were released by the judiciary.  Lack of sufficient evidence was cited FOURTEEN TIMES.

Janet

++++++++++


JUNE, 2005

Mickey John:  first and second-degree murder and capital kidnapping.

Abraham Jones:  first and second-degree murder and capital kidnapping.
 
Joran van der Sloot:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder

Deepak Kalpoe:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.

Steve Croes:   Suspicion of murder and kidnapping as well as being an accessory to murder.   

Paulus van der Sloot:  complicity to pre-meditated murder, complicity to kidnapping and murder and kidnapping.


AUGUST, 2005

Deepak Kalpoe:  Suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences and even more alternately, raping somebody and new suspicions.

Satish Kalpoe:  Suspected of the primary criminal act of together with other people committing premeditated murder, alternately together with other people murdering somebody, more alternately rob a person of her liberty with fatal consequences and even more alternately, raping somebody and new suspicions


APRIL, 2006

Geoffrey van Cromvoirt:  criminal offenses that may be related to the disappearance" of Natalee Holloway.

Guido Weaver:  Assisting in the murder, heavy battery and kidnapping" of the teen


NOVEMBER, 2007

Joran van der Sloot - Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.

Satish Kalpoe -  Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.

Deepak Kalpoe - Suspicion of involvement in voluntary manslaughter and causing serious bodily hare that result in death.

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Loving Natalee - Beth Holloway
Page 219: I have to make difficult choices every day.  I have to make a conscious decision every morning when I wake up not to be bitter, not to live in resentment and let anger control me.  It's not easy.  I ask God to help me.
_____

“A person of integrity expects to be believed and when he’s not, he let’s time prove him right.” -unknown
MumInOhio
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« Reply #822 on: February 11, 2008, 01:43:22 PM »

From Sunfreak's Aruban Who's Who...Both Santos boys and the sister were questioned and they live near the Marriott.

SANTOS, Montival da Silva – Father of Andre and Arthur Santos.  He is the President of the Commercial Chamber Brazil Aruba.  The mission of the CCBA is to promote the approach between governmental entities, Brazilian and Aruban associations and entrepreneurs, aiming the consolidation of the commercial and cultural relations between the two nations.  Drives a green quad cab Ford Ranger, license plate number “A-23794.”  Played in the Texas Hold Em Tournament at the Excelsior Casino with Joran, Paulus, and Andre.  Took Elvis & Gladys Kelly to their home in Noord after first stopping by the “Wendys.”
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Lala'sMom
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« Reply #823 on: February 11, 2008, 01:55:57 PM »

From Andre's PV:After Joran helped the girl, Joran and I walked around in the Excelsior casino. I saw the group of girls who were playing blackjack with Joran walk by, and I heard the girls say he should go to Carlos & Charlies later in the evening because they would like to meet him there. Joran told them not to worry, he would go.

Does anyone remember what time the casino video shows the girls leaving the table? Is it even in the video...likely not because then we would have seen that older man get up from the table and would be able to identify him.

from my notes...
Broughton’s 302 – can’t copy…so paraphrased
Broughton and Holloway had dinner 6-7. After that they went to casino to watch Mcvay gamble. Came across Joran who Natalee had met earlier in the day on the beach , At 8.40 Natalee switched to a drink containing vodka. Fat, Chinese or Hawaiian guy arrives
.
9.45…Broughton, Holloway, Joran and others go to the hotel pool bar. 5minutes later Joran leaves and Natalee asks about C&Cs.



I don't recall ever reading where Joran claims to have walked around the casino with Andre...but I will look and see what I can find.  I do remember him saying he walked out there where the girls were by the pool area in one of his PVs....I think.  What does he say in his book?
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Nut44x4
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« Reply #824 on: February 11, 2008, 02:01:11 PM »

Did Joran kill his dog?




Yes, but not Choller.....a different dog way before Natalee.
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MumInOhio
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« Reply #825 on: February 11, 2008, 02:01:43 PM »

Klaas.....when you are not too busy could you please put the pic of Arthur Santos - the one with the absinthe bottle - sis by side with the artist's sketch...TIA

Per your request 




Klaas...what do you think?

I can't even remember what was said happened in the 'Haunting' show. Did she say this is the guy that hit Natalee?

Do you know where I can find a link for that?....Thanks again....
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klaasend
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« Reply #826 on: February 11, 2008, 02:05:54 PM »

Klaas.....when you are not too busy could you please put the pic of Arthur Santos - the one with the absinthe bottle - sis by side with the artist's sketch...TIA

Per your request 




Klaas...what do you think?

I can't even remember what was said happened in the 'Haunting' show. Did she say this is the guy that hit Natalee?

Do you know where I can find a link for that?....Thanks again....

The show Youtubes are in this front page post.  I can't watch them right now because I'm working but here's the link:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/06/21/court-tvs-haunting-evidence-the-natalee-holloway-investigation/
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MumInOhio
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« Reply #827 on: February 11, 2008, 02:06:12 PM »

From Andre's PV:After Joran helped the girl, Joran and I walked around in the Excelsior casino. I saw the group of girls who were playing blackjack with Joran walk by, and I heard the girls say he should go to Carlos & Charlies later in the evening because they would like to meet him there. Joran told them not to worry, he would go.

Does anyone remember what time the casino video shows the girls leaving the table? Is it even in the video...likely not because then we would have seen that older man get up from the table and would be able to identify him.

from my notes...
Broughton’s 302 – can’t copy…so paraphrased
Broughton and Holloway had dinner 6-7. After that they went to casino to watch Mcvay gamble. Came across Joran who Natalee had met earlier in the day on the beach , At 8.40 Natalee switched to a drink containing vodka. Fat, Chinese or Hawaiian guy arrives
.
9.45…Broughton, Holloway, Joran and others go to the hotel pool bar. 5minutes later Joran leaves and Natalee asks about C&Cs.



I don't recall ever reading where Joran claims to have walked around the casino with Andre...but I will look and see what I can find.  I do remember him saying he walked out there where the girls were by the pool area in one of his PVs....I think.  What does he say in his book?


The 9.45 is from the book...I had just started looking at his PVs and got sidetracked....blame Freddy...

His alibi for the Monday night at the casino ... Santos, Guido, Deepak and probably GVC's Daddy's security cameras....LOL
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martini
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« Reply #828 on: February 11, 2008, 02:08:24 PM »

Did Joran kill his dog?




Yes, but not Choller.....a different dog way before Natalee.


Anon post Dec. 30, 2005

Quote
Natalee died at the VDS house, but not in Joran's room. She died in the pool shed out back of the house where PVDS put her after Joran beat her up while trying to have sex with her against her will.
Nalalee went of with Joran willingly but did not want to have sex after Joran got started. This happened not in the presense of Deepak or Satish. The brothers had left Joran on the beach with Natalee after Natalee escaped from the car and ran. Joran went after her. It was not the beach near the Marriot, but one on the southern end of the island where they went to look at the stars that can only be seen from the southern hemisphere, most significantly The Southern Cross.
Joran called his dad when he realized he'd hurt Natalee. They took her back to the VDS house. Paulus sent Joran to bed and he put her in the pool shed until he figured out how to save his son from this mess. She died there of her injuries, most significantly the one to her head. She choked to death on vomit from her head injury the next day because she had tape on her mouth and was tied up.

PVDS hid the body in a grave under that dog of Joran's that Joran killed a few days before. There are lots of bodies buried under dogs on that island, bodies from deaths that occured at Rave parties from drug reactions.
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Frank
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« Reply #829 on: February 11, 2008, 02:15:00 PM »

Martini,

Regarding your post, just another reason why the truth can't come out. But we need it too, of only to move on from this horror show.

I feel Beth is hurting despite what she says, when the truth comes out, my god, how can we help her then?

Any word from Jossy?
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Nut44x4
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« Reply #830 on: February 11, 2008, 02:22:36 PM »

http://www.crimesite.nl/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6302

Translated...but I am still a bit     lol


ARUBA1 Comentaar on piece write: Joran of of the ditch have Natalee
Holloway assassinated? I find it sin that this Article does not fall
in compared to a lot of other large Article which on this Internet
site be to find.



 Where I annoy myself at this Article entirely dead to are
anti-objectieve the character which is given. Particularly if it
concerns criticism which is expressed on Aruba and its judicial
apparatus. For all clarity: Nearly all Officieren of justice and
judges (inc. chief public prosecutor mos) are DUTCH. There the
arubaanse law comes nearly at that the same such as those of the
NETHERLANDS is. And the weinigen which the Netherlands does not end up
its, however, IN the NETHERLANDS TRAINED.

There is mentioned in this Article that the term that ' the right
triumph ' surplus of good will be for Aruba. What I wonder myself is
what the writer wants reach with this pronouncement. Has he sometimes
been on Aruba? What weet he of the arubaanse political and justice?
has he sometimes done study into corruption on the island or at least
spoken with someone who can tell about that something sensible?

I want mention the following. The Netherlands has often come the last
years in the news by means of construction fraud, swindle with
evaluating houses (very recent), pinpas fraud, the Aegon fraud case,
the matter where committed by means of nieuwsblad v.d. KVK in the
Netherlands fraud became (to see www.bizz.nl), the matter of the
portfolio manager Wilfred a which with its lawyer to head stood of
criminal group (www.bizz.nl), the large-scale fraud of copying train
tickets in the 2006, (see www.elsevier.nl), so-called omkoopschandaal
in the eredivisie football (to present however not proved), the fraud
with asylum money (see www.nieuws.aol.nl), the large-scale dentist
fraud in 2006, ( have with the tax bicycle regulation (YES, INDEED,
the POLICE FORCE IS YOU BEST FRIEND!!)

(www.telegraaf.nl) recent in the news have also once more come that
entrepreneurs in the Netherlands for an amount of 400 millions euro
per year (! are duped!) by typing subjects swindlers
(www.telegraaf.nl, 04 February) by at all these Internet sites the
subjects in the box of MISSING its these to find. I want also once
more mention that it can possibly for the writer sometimes interesant
read Article to have been called ' pasieve politically leads to the
Netherlands to fraud country ' to see on the Internet site
http://www.janmarijnissen.nl/2005/03/01/passieve-politiek-leidt-tot-nederland-fraudeland/.
key words which are forward brought in this Article its among other
things construction fraud, Hbo-fraude, bankruptcy fraud, Esf-fraude,
benefit fraud, insurance fraud (many of these subjects in relation
with political moreover) Thereby there is also still the Internet site www.ikbengenaaid.nl
where the visitor is treated fraud large-scale to karrevracht to both
small deception and. Google the word fraud telegraph or fraud general
daily (only 2 newspapers) and the number to fraud matter that is
enumerated can not even more be counted.

I let be well clear. I do not want ABSOLUTELY forward bring that there
is on Aruba no corruption because that would be the largest nonsense.
Every people who a good has got functioning brein of our kind lord
weet that no country are on this world where there no corruption takes
place. Corruption takes place everywhere. Both in prive-sector, and in
the government and thereby sometimes even at police force and judicial
authorities. And yes, this happened on Aruba that is also admitted at
least by me, however.

What I, HOWEVER, CLEAR wants make is that I with the writer of Article
' have it Joran Natalee have not been once assassinated?' since he
Aruba considered as a very corrupt island. What tevens relevant is
beside its judgements mention is the fact that Aruba is the most
prosperous island compared to every island of the Antilles. Tevens I
want mention that also still the income by citizen lies on average
highest in comparison with Antiliaanse the islands or other islands in
the region. Thereby lie crime-rate of Aruba both in proportion and in
number of the a lot of times lower as those in the Netherlands. It is
a fact that Dutch know very a little of the Antilles and Aruba, and
sometimes himself not even know all islands (in name and number). As a
result, as a synonym it are frequently considered Aruba of islands in
the region where the crime and poverty lie high to very high.

Finally I want mention still that my Article does not apply to all
Dutch. That lets be clear, I believe that the opinion of someone is
due coupled to its character and not to its nationality. I know a lot
of Dutch who share, as it happens, the same opinion as me (all as a
matter of fact resident here, the group which it near sees of and
therefore, however, can form a firm opinion and no preconceptions have
since they near experience it of and not of 9000 km distance). Which I
have written it has been only intended for the writer and possibly
others who shares opinion also its. As well as corruption apparently
also frequently prevents an enormous quantity to ' naive to be '.

Pleasant greeting!
A gelukkige citizen and who has both in the Netherlands gewoont in
Aruba! (responses are welcome!!)"

http://www.crimesite.nl/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=6302
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One who doesn't trust is never deceived...

'I remained too much inside my head and ended up losing my mind' -Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #831 on: February 11, 2008, 02:25:19 PM »

Quote
Natalee died at the VDS house, but not in Joran's room. She died in the pool shed out back of the house where PVDS put her after Joran beat her up while trying to have sex with her against her will.
Nalalee went of with Joran willingly but did not want to have sex after Joran got started. This happened not in the presense of Deepak or Satish. The brothers had left Joran on the beach with Natalee after Natalee escaped from the car and ran. Joran went after her. It was not the beach near the Marriot, but one on the southern end of the island where they went to look at the stars that can only be seen from the southern hemisphere, most significantly The Southern Cross.
Joran called his dad when he realized he'd hurt Natalee. They took her back to the VDS house. Paulus sent Joran to bed and he put her in the pool shed until he figured out how to save his son from this mess. She died there of her injuries, most significantly the one to her head. She choked to death on vomit from her head injury the next day because she had tape on her mouth and was tied up.

PVDS hid the body in a grave under that dog of Joran's that Joran killed a few days before. There are lots of bodies buried under dogs on that island, bodies from deaths that occured at Rave parties from drug reactions.

K2 was involved, since they saw "that shit".
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imnoangel
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« Reply #832 on: February 11, 2008, 02:29:14 PM »

that could be very well what happened.
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Nut44x4
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« Reply #833 on: February 11, 2008, 02:31:04 PM »

Thanks Klaas...there are not a lot of ears like that in the pics we have...man I'm going to be glued to that for hours...you're a gem Klaas...


mmmmmmmm..........I agree! But Guido is, as always has been my first choice. This IS very interesting though!!
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Brothers and Sisters, I bid you beware/Of giving your heart to a dog to tear  -- Rudyard Kipling

One who doesn't trust is never deceived...

'I remained too much inside my head and ended up losing my mind' -Edgar Allen Poe
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« Reply #834 on: February 11, 2008, 02:33:12 PM »

Did Joran kill his dog?




Yes, but not Choller.....a different dog way before Natalee.


Anon post Dec. 30, 2005

Quote
Natalee died at the VDS house, but not in Joran's room. She died in the pool shed out back of the house where PVDS put her after Joran beat her up while trying to have sex with her against her will.
Nalalee went of with Joran willingly but did not want to have sex after Joran got started. This happened not in the presense of Deepak or Satish. The brothers had left Joran on the beach with Natalee after Natalee escaped from the car and ran. Joran went after her. It was not the beach near the Marriot, but one on the southern end of the island where they went to look at the stars that can only be seen from the southern hemisphere, most significantly The Southern Cross.
Joran called his dad when he realized he'd hurt Natalee. They took her back to the VDS house. Paulus sent Joran to bed and he put her in the pool shed until he figured out how to save his son from this mess. She died there of her injuries, most significantly the one to her head. She choked to death on vomit from her head injury the next day because she had tape on her mouth and was tied up.

PVDS hid the body in a grave under that dog of Joran's that Joran killed a few days before. There are lots of bodies buried under dogs on that island, bodies from deaths that occured at Rave parties from drug reactions.

I think all of that is entirely plausible.
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imnoangel
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« Reply #835 on: February 11, 2008, 02:35:19 PM »

Just saw Peter R. the Vries on "de wereld draait door".
He said he had expected to hear something from Aruba by now, and he also mentioned he and his team got between 3500 and 5000 tips after Jorans "confession" got on tv. Some tips seem to be very usefull he said, and he will make a folow-up,he's continuing his research.
Peter also repeated the fact that he thinks the parents of Joran reacted strange to the
confession tapes, strange as in not how responsible parents would react.
Peter was to promote his new book on the show, but they ran short of time, so he was quite pissed about that.
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« Reply #836 on: February 11, 2008, 02:35:39 PM »

Klaas.....when you are not too busy could you please put the pic of Arthur Santos - the one with the absinthe bottle - sis by side with the artist's sketch...TIA

Per your request 




Klaas...what do you think?

I can't even remember what was said happened in the 'Haunting' show. Did she say this is the guy that hit Natalee?

Do you know where I can find a link for that?....Thanks again....

The show Youtubes are in this front page post.  I can't watch them right now because I'm working but here's the link:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2007/06/21/court-tvs-haunting-evidence-the-natalee-holloway-investigation/

Spitting image - right down to the little hair sprout on the top of his head!
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imnoangel
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« Reply #837 on: February 11, 2008, 02:39:34 PM »

you dont think there is a media-silence per today?
that is, that the media cannot get info untill joran is in aruban jail?
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private eye
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« Reply #838 on: February 11, 2008, 02:44:42 PM »

More from the Professor:

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080211-holloway-legal-sloot

Is psychology playing an increasingly larger role in legal cases? That was the question being asked at a seminar at Utrecht University last week following the confession by Joran van der Sloot in the case of the missing American teenager Natalee Holloway. The hidden camera footage of his "confession" was broadcast to a record seven million Dutch viewers in a commercial television programme by crime reporter Peter R. de Vries.

Professor Willem Albert Wagenaar takes the floor - Thursday's seminar attracted great media interest
At the seminar
, both legal psychologist Willem Albert Wagenaar and professor of criminal law Chrisje Brants particularly criticised the methods used by Mr De Vries.
"Solved"

Willem Albert Wagenaar said he thinks the crime reporter, who claimed to have "solved the case"  was too quick to draw conclusions. In particular, because "it is not even a confession".

Above all else, actually broadcasting the footage has made it more difficult to secure a conviction. If Mr de Vries had given the material to the Public Prosecution Office straight away, it would be holding all the trumps, as investigators would be able to question Joran van der Sloot on information "that only the person responsible for Natalee's disappearance could know. Now everyone knows".



"Madman"
Another point of criticism by Mr Wagenaar is that, in spite of claims by Peter R. de Vries that Joran van der Sloot would have to be a madman to say the things he did, there are people who lie about a statement.

Mr Wagenaar said it's not as simple as it seems. He described a number of situations in which people confess to crimes they have not committed. "Some people read an article in a newspaper and then say: I did it," to attract attention.

He also pointed out people admit to crimes to protect certain people. And then there are those who confess because of pressure from others. "They just crack," said Wagenaar. They even start believing their own lies.

One thing is certain according to Mr Wagenaar, "The case has absolutely not been solved." The idea that the footage is a confession to a crime is also premature, as it's not even been established that a crime has been committed.

Judge and Jury
There is something the Public Prosecution can do with the confession, said the second speaker of the day, professor Chrisje Brants. The Aruban authorities can follow up new trails of investigation. The footage itself would not lead to an arrest, because there is no evidence to detain him on. She mainly criticised the way in which the programme did more damage than good.

"Combating, investigating and prosecuting crime is a matter for the authorities," said Professor Brants. "But in his programme Peter R. de Vries is both judge and jury."

Public interest
Chrisje Brants finished off by defining the role played by public interest. Because the case has been discussed so widely in the media, a broad audience is very interested in it. The question is why has it become so important.

Ms Brants pointed out that certain information should be confined to the criminal proceedings and should not be allowed out into the public arena. "What's in the public interest is not the same as what the public believe is interesting."
* RNW translation (nc)




Read this carefully, these are the "legal minds" of the country, yet, what amazed me is their full faith and belief in a system that is obviously corrupt and nonfunctioning.

By law, unless someone is legally pronounced dead, they are alive. The extenuating circumstances in this case is the fact that Joran readily admitted she could have been alive, and he and the not named accomplice are the only witnesses, so considering all facts, I would think the verdict would say yes she was alive. Also considering the fact that it was due to Jorans intentional violation of the law and his wilful act to dispose of the body that an autopsy cannot be performed to establish that she was indeed dead, it is no ones fault but his that he can't be given the benefit of the doubt, and she was by law alive when they dumped her into the ocean. The last time I checked that was murder and he confessed.

And yes, nuts often confess to crimes they didn't committ. But in this case he was the last to be seen with her and he confessed to the crime, and most nuts who falsely confess aren't in those shoes. The criminal psychologists need to read up on their healthcare law before flapping their educated but in this instance ignorant lips and making pronouncements. Healthcare law must be considered to determine if the victim was murdered, alive when drowned, or simply a body that was illegally disposed, and dead when dumped. MO
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« Reply #839 on: February 11, 2008, 02:47:17 PM »

Did Joran kill his dog?




Yes, but not Choller.....a different dog way before Natalee.


Anon post Dec. 30, 2005

Quote
Natalee died at the VDS house, but not in Joran's room. She died in the pool shed out back of the house where PVDS put her after Joran beat her up while trying to have sex with her against her will.
Nalalee went of with Joran willingly but did not want to have sex after Joran got started. This happened not in the presense of Deepak or Satish. The brothers had left Joran on the beach with Natalee after Natalee escaped from the car and ran. Joran went after her. It was not the beach near the Marriot, but one on the southern end of the island where they went to look at the stars that can only be seen from the southern hemisphere, most significantly The Southern Cross.
Joran called his dad when he realized he'd hurt Natalee. They took her back to the VDS house. Paulus sent Joran to bed and he put her in the pool shed until he figured out how to save his son from this mess. She died there of her injuries, most significantly the one to her head. She choked to death on vomit from her head injury the next day because she had tape on her mouth and was tied up.

PVDS hid the body in a grave under that dog of Joran's that Joran killed a few days before. There are lots of bodies buried under dogs on that island, bodies from deaths that occured at Rave parties from drug reactions.

I think all of that is entirely plausible.

What I want to know is...did that dog that Joran killed (how sick!), get buried out in the yard near the pool...in the ground where there is now cement surrounding the pool...and the bloody mattress with dog blood on it...was Natalee's blood there too?...the furniture truck that arrived soon after...I remember that there was speculation that a new mattress was delivered...is that true?  So many questions...so much speculation...Come on Joran...you are reaching a point where it might save your life to tell the truth.
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I Stand With The Girl *NATALEE HOLLOWAY*

Aruba Beware *AN ANGEL LIKE NO OTHER* has fallen amongst you....may you know the fury of HEAVEN!
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