Natalee Case Discussion #728 2/10 - 2/11/08

[San]

In the tape, Joran does say:

Joran: I see also, she's drunk, Patrick, really drunk, But I thought, I'll just take the girl for a little while and f*** her.

Now, I believe that is intent, with someone not up to consenting.

If a girl is really drunk it's ok for Joran to take advantage of her but if he is smoking pot in a car he was under the influence and he didn't know what he was saying.

The rules according to Joran and everyone must follow what he says.  If he says she was dead then she was.  But if you say it was murder because of his actions he will say well I don't know if she was dead so that makes the guy Duary the actual murderer.

[private eye]

This is a campaign year, and I think we have been pressuring the wrong governments. It is time the media take these questions to Bush, and the candidates. We have an absolute and legitimate right to know and it is absurd that Bush has not been publicly questioned about this case. If him responding is such a dman big deal, if this is such an awkward question to force him to address, then we can assume that some how the US is dirty in Aruba as well.

I know my stance isn't popular, but I'm not someone who always supports my government even when I think the government is wrong. To me, blind acceptance leads to exactly the type of corruption we've witnessed in Aruba. I agree with you - our government at the top levels needs get on board.

Its not like we're asking them to act in particular, but at least have the decency to tell us all what went down in Aruba starting that first night with the DEA agent and then what all happened while they were there monitoring the case. They were present for all of the interrogations. What is the secret and what was their reason for being there if it wasn't to keep us informed? Don't they work for us? Or were they there for their own undefined purposes? If so, then they need to tell us that as well. They could shed a whole lot of light on this.

[BTgirl]

The family started the circling of phone calls spreading the word that Natalee was dead June 10, 2005. All of the relatives started arriving at Mrs. reynolds house on June 11, 2005, armed with food and flowers thinking that the burial process was underway, only to see on TV the gradual recanting of the confession by Joran. This activity began because the FBI said they witnessed the confession and that Natalee was definitely dead.

Now wtf is so secretive about that that the FBI won't publicly acknowledge it. Why do they not clear the air about what they saw and heard? It is absolutely insane and absurd.

I lost trust in the honesty of the government at a very early age. I lived near a plant that manufactured a large majority of the gunpowder used in the Viet Nam war. I used to go to the local elementary school to catch the bus to the high school. One morning when I arrived at the elementary school, my nylon stockings and slip I was wearing simply disintegrated, and it was difficult to breathe. The high school bus arrived and I went on to school, minus the slip and stockings. Later in the day, I was called to the principal's office. It seems that many of the elementary school children had been hospitalized with blistered lungs, and they wanted to know if I was okay. (I was.) The government denied that what happened had anything to do with the ammunitions plant. About 35 years later, an admission was finally made that the plant had accidentally released hydrochloric acid into the air, and that is what had damaged the lungs of all those elementary school students.

I have always believed that the FBI knew beyond a doubt that Natalee was dead, but they were willing to sacrifice that knowledge in pursuit of some aim of their own. IMO, that makes them part of the problem, not part of the answer.

[Tamikosmom]

Troubling questions remain -

What is the worst thing that could have happened if anyone had dialed 911 to get help for Natalee?

Did Joran make a confession early on?  Did authorities avoid looking to the water for remains that first week in June?  Why focus on the land? 

Does Joran have a right to confess and be held accountable for his actions the night Natalee Holloway disappeared?

Confession, responsibility, punishment, and forgiveness seem very basic.  Has Joran been given these opportunities?

Is it possible that no authority on Aruba would accept a viable confession from Joran?

Would anyone be allowed to take responsibility for what happened to Natalee?  Will anyone be punished?

What happened to forgiveness?

Joran cannot be forgiven for what he claims not to have done

I agree PI.

In my opinion ... the line in the sand regarding the issue of  forgiveness was drawn over 2000 years ago ...  "genuine" repentence and forgiveness are a package deal.

Janet

+++++++++++
 
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

However ... in spite of "genuine" repentence and forgiveness ... wrongdoing implies that there are personal and legal consequences which need to be accepted.

Janet

[Buckeye]

http://www.newsweek.com/id/109260
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109260/page/2
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109260/page/3

Cracking the Holloway Case?
Meet the crime writer who believes he's solved the mystery.

De Vries secretly filmed van der Sloot (middle, with his father) saying he had witnessed Natalee Holloway's apparent death and helped dispose of her body. (Van der Sloot has said he was joking and maintains his innocence.)
 
By Catharine Skipp | Newsweek Web Exclusive
Feb 8, 2008 | Updated: 10:56 a.m. ET Feb 8, 2008

Thanks Janet.

[Rob]

PI, I can't seem to find that screen shot. I am pretty sure I grabbed it. I'll stumble onto it at some time. I have a ton of folders and it could be in any of of them....

such as -
Aruba SUX
JVDS
Corruption
Main Aruba folder
and many more

In the capture I remember the confiscated drugs were half of what the were in 05 for 06.

When I find it, should I find it, I'll post it. >>>>shrugs shoulders<<<<< 

[Buckeye]

In the tape, Joran does say:

Joran: I see also, she's drunk, Patrick, really drunk, But I thought, I'll just take the girl for a little while and f*** her.

Now, I believe that is intent, with someone not up to consenting.

If a girl is really drunk it's ok for Joran to take advantage of her but if he is smoking pot in a car he was under the influence and he didn't know what he was saying.

The rules according to Joran and everyone must follow what he says.  If he says she was dead then she was.  But if you say it was murder because of his actions he will say well I don't know if she was dead so that makes the guy Duary the actual murderer.

Wonder who taught him how to play the system??  Jorg, at one time, nailed that one.  "How would a seventeen year old get that idea in his head?"

[Tylergal]

yesterday i realized i've been looking too much in the dirty ditch.
so i got overwhelmed by it. (see previous thread)
i am not going to let that happen because it won't help.
i had a good night sleep.

i am not going too look again in the ditch that deep and in so much detail.
you guys have been doing that for me since the start.
i will never be able to keep up with and get all the information in.
i don't even think i can handle even if i tried.

the arubans have failed you, the dutch have failed you.
i have failed for not paying attention to what was really happening on aruba from the start of natalee's disappearance.
even before that when the ditch was created.

i think i will take a step back and look at the big picture.

keep you guys updated with dutch politics in connection with this.
because i believe the dutch politics are slowly realizing aruba, america, the dutch, the world will not wait an eternity for justice.

this week balkenende his visiting the antilles and aruba (friday!).
today peter r. de vries comes back the amsterdam.
so peter r. will be in the news talking about his usa tour while balkenende is not in the country.
if peter r. wasn't such a noble and democratic man he would stage a succesful coup d'etat with american backing - because he is a hero in both countries.
i think the timeline is interesting.
also hans mos being on 'vacation' in the netherlands.

in my signature is an earlier sting operation by peter r. de vries to show you what he can do.
i have to be honest but also that man is still free...
this are other cases not linked to natalee peter r. has covered / solved:

De Vries tracked down the Heineken-kidnapper Frans Meijer in Paraguay, worked on behalf of the Putten Two and revealed that Mabel Wisse Smit knew the criminal Klaas Bruinsma better than she had previously admitted. Another important issue in his show was a found floppy-disk. This disk contained detailed information from AIVD research, the Dutch secret service. It turned out that the service observed murdered politician Pim Fortuyn; the service thought that he had sex with Moroccan minors.

On 13 September 2006, De Vries was arrested in Oisterwijk and detained for several hours in Tilburg when he tried to confront a police officer with allegations about questionable actions concerning the inheritances of elderly women. He was charged with one count of trespassing. The case was dropped in January 2007 "in view of the final results of the persistent search for the truth and the results of the disciplinary inquest" into the behavior of the police officer in question.

(Mabel Wisse Smith is married to Prince Friso who lost his claim to the throne - due to Peter R. de Vries - this was huge)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_R._de_Vries
i am putting this out here to show you what peter r. is about.
peter r. de vries won't fail you!

he has managed to expose the ditch.
only a glimpse of the ditch.
even if people close their eyes and ears it is already a horrible stench.
the smell won't go away by ignoring it, that's what the dutch politics have been doing the last week.

but now balkenende himself has to go to aruba to a pre-planned summit with aruban pm.
he can't just cancel it because he doesn't want to go - that would be even more suspicious.
he doesn't want it covered by the media so he doesn't talk about it to pretend it's low-key.
but has to go there, although he doesn't want to see the ditch.

when he comes back the stench will follow him around everywhere.
and people will start to ask why he suddenly started stinking after having been in aruba.

I have very much appreciated all your input and involvement and I feel that Beth would too.  Please know that your contribution has been large!

[Auntiem]

Checkmate.

The Dutch re-arrest Joran tomorrow morning. Extradite him to Aruba.

The onus is on Aruba, not the Dutch.

Force Aruba to act.

Throw it all on Aruba - where it belongs.

And Aruba won't because Rudy can't.

Then we have them right where we want them. And the boycott was justified and deserved. It would all be validated PI.

True, except the real goal is to prosecute the guilty. I have never bet before that someone is going to get killed, but when this actually becomes checked, the crime folks in Aruba are simply going to kill Joran.

     will "the Personna non Grata" return to Aruba?  Where is he now?  The snake mentioned that he might have to leave Holland.  It seems the Dutch are more outraged than the Arubans, although it is hitting them that their economy has been hurt.  But, aren't they between a rock and a hard place.......their economy also depends on drug trafficking and money  laundering......

    

[Frank]

The ball is in Aruba's court. Specifically the 3 judge appeals court.

the appeals court has the whole case file now. They will rule whether to arrest Joran or not.

Is there any doubt they are not really looking at the evidence and this is a political decision?

What are the consequences if they arrest him again, or not?

My guess is they will not order an arrest, because then what? It almost seems like Mos is just giving up.

I think Rudy Croes has already told us, again, they want this to go away and they will not bring Joran back to Aruba.

No way it should take this long. If Mos was going to trial, he would have said so, but to bring Joran to Aruba to "talk to him."

They just did that and got nothing. More strangeness to come.

[oldfart]

http://www.elsevier.nl/dossier/asp/dossier/620/index.html

Here is another dosssier w/ summaries, some going back to 2005 in Dutch
The site loads slow, but passing along anyway for those who wish to peek.

Thanks Nut44x4 

and by using babelfish  I can translate the entire page so it kinda makes since
http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr   

[Tylergal]

Caseu, can you tell me if your "constitution" or the foundations for the Dutch law is based on the Magna Carta, and in particular articles 38 and 39 as it pertains to habeas corpus. 

[jackb]

On Monday, May 30, 2005, around 01:15, we walked with our guest to Deepak’s car. I with my brother in the front of his car. Joran sat with the white girl in the back seat. The girl spoke with Deepak and not with me. My brother drove twice around with his car and I saw that near Dunkin Donuts a group of the Visibility Team stood.

Where is this from?  Is this the statement where they turn to avoid the Visibility Team or the police?

IIRC, the Visibility Team includes members of ALE.

Since GVC is on the visibility team, I imagine they were followed to the party, or at least some of them.  They may have threatened her with arrest and planted drugs on her to scare her.  I do not trust the fact that GVC and father was in charge of videos and business security and the son (GVC) could have been involved (as well as the father) in making sure the security tapes were NOT useful.  The boy was rebuffed by NH.  The boys at one point admitted Satish showed a porn video to this "guest" in the car.  She probably knew she was in trouble then.  They probably have hidden cameras throughout the various motel and hotels to get information on people who stray and put themselves in a position to get out of trouble with a lot of these video tapes.  Real Security and honest cops do not use drugs and harrass the tourists.  Nothing is real there except the greed of those who should be protecting the country and the tourists.
No doubt, they need to clean house.    Jack Blue

I found it under Important Documents....

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=d3b1ecd0f8d996ee40dfe39286a28f3c&topic=330.0

[Rob]

caesu - thanks for being here with us. And you did not fail us or Natalee.

But this guy sure did.


February 26, 2007 U.S. Congressman Tom Lantos, the Chairman of the House International Relations Committee, visited The Hague, primarily to consult with Dutch officials about foreign policy issues.
In the photo Congressman Lantos gives an interview to Dutch television news program "EenVandaag" ("Channel 1 Today"). The interview was broadcast on Wednesday, February 28, 2007.

[BTgirl]

Caseu, can you tell me if your "constitution" or the foundations for the Dutch law is based on the Magna Carta, and in particular articles 38 and 39 as it pertains to habeas corpus. 

Hi Tyler

I'm not Caseu, but out of curiosity I googled Dutch law. This is what I came up with:

Roman Dutch law is a legal system based on Roman law as applied in the Netherlands in the 17th and 18th century. As such, it is a variety of the European continental Civil law or ius commune.

In the Netherlands, the history of Roman Dutch law ended, when the kingdom of the Netherlands adopted the French Code civil in 1809.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman-Dutch_law

The Napoleonic Code, or Code Napoléon (originally called the Code civil des Français) was the French civil code, established under Napoléon I. It was drafted rapidly by a commission of four eminent jurists and entered into force on March 21, 1804. Even though the Napoleonic code was not the first legal code to be established in a European country with a civil legal system — it was preceded by the Codex Maximilianeus bavaricus civilis (Bavaria, 1756), the Allgemeines Landrecht (Prussia, 1792) and the West Galician Code, (Galicia, then part of Austria, 1797) — it is considered the first successful codification[citation needed] and strongly influenced the law of many other countries. The Code, with its stress on clearly written and accessible law, was a major step in establishing the rule of law. Historians have called it "one of the few documents which have influenced the whole world."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoleonic_Code

So it looks as if Dutch law is based on the Napoleonic Code.

[Tylergal]

caesu - thanks for being here with us. And you did not fail us or Natalee.

But this guy sure did.


February 26, 2007 U.S. Congressman Tom Lantos, the Chairman of the House International Relations Committee, visited The Hague, primarily to consult with Dutch officials about foreign policy issues.
In the photo Congressman Lantos gives an interview to Dutch television news program "EenVandaag" ("Channel 1 Today"). The interview was broadcast on Wednesday, February 28, 2007.

Rob, Brother Tom has always been rough on my blood pressure.  He did somewhat redeem himself on some other issues, however, when he went back in October 2007.  I hate to ever agree with anything he says or does, but at least he did make half of Europe mad the last time, save Tony Blair and Sarkozy.

[Auntiem]

  If Dutch Law is based on the Napoleonic Code.....Joran should be under arrest right now...   Guilty until proven Innocent....the opposite of our Justice System....In other words, Joran should be tried and have to prove that he did NOT murder Natalee.......I would like to see this happen!!!

[Rob]

caesu - thanks for being here with us. And you did not fail us or Natalee.

But this guy sure did.


February 26, 2007 U.S. Congressman Tom Lantos, the Chairman of the House International Relations Committee, visited The Hague, primarily to consult with Dutch officials about foreign policy issues.
In the photo Congressman Lantos gives an interview to Dutch television news program "EenVandaag" ("Channel 1 Today"). The interview was broadcast on Wednesday, February 28, 2007.

Rob, Brother Tom has always been rough on my blood pressure.  He did somewhat redeem himself on some other issues, however, when he went back in October 2007.  I hate to ever agree with anything he says or does, but at least he did make half of Europe mad the last time, save Tony Blair and Sarkozy.

search him on my blog Tylergal....see what gets him hot under the collar.

I called his offices in San Fran and Washington and got the run-around. What a coward.

Dog fighting and steroids take precedent over a human being.

<snip>
A California congressman has joined the cause against Michael Vick, firing off a letter Friday that urged NFL commissioner Roger Goodell to "act swiftly and forcefully" if the Atlanta Falcons quarterback was involved in dog fighting on his former property. U.S. Rep. Tom Lantos (D-Calif.) pointed out that he's a senior member of the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which two years ago held highly publicized hearings on the use of performance-enhancing drugs in professional sports.

Lantos raised the prospect of government intervention if the NFL fails to discipline Vick.

Here he pisses off the Dutch.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,,-7028503,00.html

<snip>
It was not the first time that Lantos had offended European political circles. In May, he lashed out at the former leaders of France and Germany. His comments, which included calling former German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder a ``political prostitute,'' provoked a rebuke from German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier.

<snip>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Lantos

 family in Budapest, Hungary, Lantos was part of a resistance movement against the Nazis during the German occupation of Hungary. In his floor speeches, he sometimes refers to himself as one of the few living members of Congress who fought against fascism.

He sought refuge in a safe house established by Raoul Wallenberg; in 1981 Lantos sponsored a bill making Wallenberg an Honorary Citizen of the United States. He moved to the United States in 1947, and still speaks with a pronounced Hungarian accent.

Lantos considers himself a secular Jew. He is the only Holocaust survivor ever to serve in Congress.[3] Upon immigrating to the United States he attended the University of Washington and the University of California, Berkeley, receiving his Ph.D in 1953.

For three decades prior to his service in Congress (1950–1980), Lantos was a professor of economics, an international affairs analyst for public television, and a consultant to a number of businesses. He also served as a senior advisor to several U.S. Senators.

Lantos made his first run for office in 1980, when he defeated one-term Republican congressman Bill Royer by 5,700 votes. He has never faced another contest nearly that close, and has been reelected 13 times.

Lantos and his wife Annette have two daughters, Annette and Katrina, and 17 grandchildren. Lantos' wife is a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the Mormon church). Annette Lantos is a first cousin of the sisters Zsa Zsa, Eva, and Magda Gabor.[4] Katrina, who married ambassador and former U.S. Representative from New Hampshire's 2nd congressional district Richard Swett, was a candidate for the U.S. Senate in New Hampshire.

Lantos appeared in the Academy Award winning film The Last Days, a documentary of the Holocaust's effect on Hungarian Jews, and "To Bear Witness", another documentary.[5]

Lantos often brings a small white terrier named Mackó (little bear in Hungarian, pronounced mɒtskoː) to his Capitol Hill office. Lantos' previous dog, a small poodle named Gigi, was also a fixture in Washington.

Tom and Annette Lantos are Honorary Members of The International Raoul Wallenberg Foundation

Political Positions

Lantos was a strong supporter of the Iraq War from the start, but from 2006 onward has made increasingly critical statements about the war, and as the chairman of the United States House Committee on Foreign Affairs he held 20 oversight hearings on the war in 2007. See separate section below about the war in Iraq.

Lantos is a member of the Congressional Progressive Caucus[6] and has repeatedly called for reforms to the nation's health-care system, reduction of the national budget deficit and the national debt, repeal of the Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001, and has opposed Social Security privatization efforts. He supports same-sex marriage rights and marijuana for medical use, is a strong proponent of gun control[7] and is adamantly pro-choice.[8]

Lantos is a well-known advocate on behalf of the environment, receiving consistently high ratings from the League of Conservation Voters and other environmental organizations for his legislative record.[9] His long-standing efforts to protect open space have brought thousands of acres under the protection of the Golden Gate National Recreation Area, including Mori Point, Sweeney Ridge and — most recently — Rancho Corral de Tierra, which will keep its watersheds and delicate habitats free from development permanently.[10][11] In 2005 he opposed an effort to expand public use of the Farallon Islands, a protected wildlife haven.

Lantos has consistently championed local transportation pr

Foreign affairs issues

Lantos currently serves as the chairman of the United States House Committee on Foreign Affairs.

Through its more than 20 years of work, the Congressional Human Rights Caucus[12] — of which Lantos is co-chair with Representative Frank Wolf — has covered a wide range of human rights issues, speaking out for Christians who want to practice their faith in Saudi Arabia and Sudan, fighting for Tibetans to be able to retain their culture and religion in Tibet and advocating for other oppressed minorities worldwide. Lantos’ efforts to protect religious freedom in 2004 resulted in a bill to halt the global spread of antisemitism.[13]

Lantos and his colleagues on the International Relations Committee are also involved with many decisions that affect other aspects of American foreign policy. Lantos has spoken out strongly against waste, fraud and abuse in the multi-billion dollar U.S. reconstruction program in Iraq, and has warned that the U.S. may lose Afghanistan to the Taliban if the Bush Administration fails to take decisive action to halt the current decline in political stability there.

Lantos, then the ranking Democrat on the International Relations Committee, tried to disrupt U.S. military aid to Egypt. Lantos argued that the Egyptian military had made insufficient efforts to stop the flow of money and weapons across the Egyptian border to Hamas in Gaza, and had not contributed troops to internationally-supported peacekeeping efforts in Afghanistan and elsewhere. Lantos is a strong advocate of Israel, and has spoken at the American Israel Public Affairs Committee.[14]

[jackb]

San

Exactly, any prosecutor could have been sent across the pond.  Why this one?  Isn't Lugo really the head one?

Auntiem

I don't believe that Peter DeVries is holding back the smoking gun.  I wish Patrick would have been more probing but he really isn't a trained interrogator. It is what it is.....which is a whole lot more than we had before a lay person got involved.  I think we've all wanted a full confession, from day one. I believe there was one at one point.

I would imagine that which can be used as evidentiary material would not be released to the public.  Also, we really do not know which country sent Patrick.  Nothig is as it seems many time.  Some people work for different countries under the guise of being a hoodlum if it suits the purpose.  Their records checked reveal what the sender wants the public or whomever to see.  It is an easy thing.  As I have said many times, all is not as it seems.  This country and other countries have people working and living there that bind together for the good and is deep within other agencies where not many can uncover the patriotic work.  Some things just have to be.        Jack Blue

[Kat_Gram]

http://www.radionetherlands.nl/currentaffairs/080209-holloway-sloot
Last night,  I had the radio on late and there was a program broadcast on Radio Netherlands. There was a Dutch lawyer on and thery were discussing the case from the standpoint of whether or not the DeVries tapes are evidence.
It was one of the higher standing lawyers in the NL. It was his opinion that the answer was no, based on the unreliability of the subject. He was a professor type, you know the kind.
Anyway, this is a big story in NL. He said that you must not mix law with emotion. He said that there were mobs following Joran around, wanting to do something. LOL
I can't find a podcast of the actual program, but I did like the part about mobs.
These programs go worldwide. I like that part also.