Natalee Case Discussion #729 2/11 - 2/13/08

[Observer]

I had no idea the Persistence can find anything bigger than a baseball. That is unbelievable!!!


http://tinyurl.com/22cjbd

[caesu]

FYI

itenary visit Balkenende Antillen/Aruba

Balkenende and Bijleveld visit Netherlands Antilles and Aruba

press bulletin | 05-02-2008

Bring Bijleveld (kingdom relations) minister-president Balkenende and State Secretary of 10 up to and including 15 February a working visit to the Netherlands Antilles and Aruba.

The visit stands dominated by the renewal of the relations within the kingdom. The minister-president can be informed concerning the progress of the political process. The minister-president and the State Secretary visit projects in the field of education, health care and economic development. On the university of the Netherlands Antilles minister-president gives Balkenende a lecture concerning dynamics in kingdom, society and economy. During the visit the minister-president and the State Secretary put on all islands.

Sunday evening 10 February comes the lord Balkenende and Ms Bijleveldaan on sint at. They are as a result, received minister-president E. Jongh-Elhage of the Netherlands Antilles.

On Monday 11 February stand Saba and sint Eustatius on the programme. in the morning on Saba with the gezaghebber and the governing body and a visit is brought to the Sacred Heart school it is spoken. During the lunch it is spoken with persons from the society which is active in the field of nature, environment and tourism.

On sint Eustatius at noon a conversation takes place with the gezaghebber and the governing body. Also a visit to the hospital and the Oil terminal are paid. at night is there on sint at a reception.

Tuesday 12 February the programmaop sint at with a conversation start with the governing body and a visit to the Courthouse, where minister-president keeps Balkenende a speech concerning law enforcement and good governance. at noon on Bonaire it is spoken with the gezaghebber and the governing body. At the end of the afternoon minister on Curaçao a lecture gives to the university of the Netherlands Antilles. After result he goes with the students in discussion. at night the government of the Netherlands Antilles offers a diner. 

On Wednesday 13 February the minister-president and the State Secretary on Curaçao speak Goedgedrag with governor. Also they visit the states of the Netherlands Antilles. Furthermore there is a conversation with minister-president Jongh-Elhage and Council of Ministers. Later in the afternoon the gezelschaphet visit project Renaissance in.the.presence.of the gedeputeerde for tourism and economic matter. at night there is a reception which stands in the sign of education, culture and sport. 

Thursday 14 February starts the day with a visit to the Navy barracks on Curaçao. The attention will go out here to a young people programme of defence: future plan antillian militia (TAME). Later in the morning it is spoken with the island Council of Curaçao. at noon visit to Museo Tula brings and finds a conversation with connecting the gezaghebber and the governing board college of Curaçao. To the Netherlands Antilles is concluded with a press conference.

Friday 15 February stands in the morning a number of conversations on the agenda with arubaanse island drivers. First of all speak the official with the governor of Aruba. Connecting there is a conversation with minister-president Oduber and the Minister for Finance and economic matter, Mr Swaen. Afterwards speak the lord Balkenende and Ms Bijleveld with the President of the states of Aruba and the party leaders of the political parties.

The lunch with representatives from the society stands dominated by sustainable economic development.

 at noon minister-president Balkenende with parents and students of the Collegio Arubano speaks. Also there is a visit to the Valero Aruba Refinery. The topic is environment there, sustainability and socially justified undertake.

As from the refinery the party is picked up by Dutch mariniers. By boat one will stand to the marinierskazerne Savaneta, alwaar a sightseeing, a demonstration and a conversation with the mariniers on the programme.

At the end of the day Balkenende to the Netherlands and is there a closed press conference on the airport leaves minister-president. 

State Secretary Bijleveld has an administrative consultation with sint on Saturday 16 February on Curaçao still at, Curaçao and the government of the Netherlands Antilles concerning law enforcement and the design of the Public Prosecution Service. Also minister Hirsch Ballin van Justitie will be present.

http://www.minaz.nl/Actueel/Pers_en_nieuwsberichten/2008/Februari/Balkenende_en_Bijleveld_bezoeken_Nederlandse_Antillen_en_Aruba

[klaasend]

Waiting Game Continues for Holloway Family
An Appeals Panel Delays Decision to Re-Arrest Joran van der Sloot
 
Monday, Feb 11, 2008 - 11:50 PM
 
By Jennifer Hale

Prosecutors in Aruba say there's been another delay in their request to re-arrest Joran van der Sloot.
    Aruba's Ministry of Justice filed for permission to re-arrest  van der Sloot soon after his secretly recorded confession tape became public.
     A Dutch judge denied the request - saying the tape didn't provide enough evidence to justify van der Sloot's third arrest.
     Aruban prosecutors appealed, and a panel of three judges in The Netherlands was scheduled to decide Monday if they would over rule the first judge's decision.
    Instead, Monday afternoon the Appeals Court announced they're giving van der Sloot's defense attorney until Wednesday to fight the effort to re-arrest him.
     It's a stressful waiting game for Natalee Holloway's family. Her dad Dave Holloway says he is more convinced than ever that van der Sloot drugged his daughter the night she died. Holloway says he believes it happened at a more private back bar at Carlos and Charlie's that served up some suspicious drinks when bar tenders announced last call.
    “A male would come up and order two drinks. The bartenders would reach up, get the liquor bottles - then pour the drinks. Then the bartender would reach down below him and grab a bottle with clear liquid and just put it in one of the drinks," explains Holloway.
     Van der Sloot says he was lying on the confession tape, but Holloway believes it’s the truth. Holloway says one of the most tell-tale parts of the tape is when van der Sloot admits he was on the beach with Natalee the night she died, and then that he called someone to dump her body when she went unconscious.
      “Common sense will tell you, that's not a normal reaction. If you hadn't done something wrong, why would you bother to get rid of the body? Why go to the trouble?” questions Holloway.
     The Appeals Panel could make its decision on whether police can re-arrest van der Sloot by the end of the week.

http://www.nbc13.com:80/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2008-02-11-0022.html

[Anna]

I have a question concerning Dutch/Aruban law.

Wouldn't a person be legally considered still alive until declared otherwise by a coroner, physician or at least member of the medical community such as Emergency Med Tech?

Is Joran authorized to declare a person as deceased?

If not, then legally, was he not responsible for what was legally considered a still live person being put into the ocean as a distance from shore from which it was impossible for them to swim, recover, etc.

How is this not murder since it is only the word of the perpetrator to the crime that she was dead at the time?

It's really scary to think someone like Joran can go around declaring who is living and who is not and act according to his own determination.

This is legal?  WoW!

.

[hotping]

I have a question concerning Dutch/Aruban law.

Wouldn't a person be legally considered still alive until declared otherwise by a coroner, physician or at least member of the medical community such as Emergency Med Tech?

Is Joran authorized to declare a person as deceased?

If not, then legally, was he not responsible for what was legally considered a still live person being put into the ocean as a distance from shore from which it was impossible for them to swim, recover, etc.

How is this not murder since it is only the word of the perpetrator to the crime that she was dead at the time?

It's really scary to think someone like Joran can go around declaring who is living and who is not and act according to his own determination.

This is legal?  WoW!

.

Hi Anna..Seems to Me there are two murders Joran and whoever deposed of the body....wasn't one of the suspects accused of conspiracy to commit murder....if She was still alive and Joran asked someone to dump Her in the ocean and that person just said OK then that person is as guilty if not more so than Joran....Does this make sense?   

[Observer]

Arm found in Venezuela was from a Pelican

'Correct people should behind bars'
By MAAIKE RUEPERT
[WEBLOG ARUBA] Few Arubans are to this day engaged in searching for Natalee Holloway. Businessman Eduardo Mansur is one such exception.
Image enlarge Natalee Holloway on the beach of Aruba.
He helps the family Holloway where he can. He acts as a broker between the Aruban contacts there, and American zoekteams or private detectives acting on behalf of the Holloways Aruba calling.

Mansur hold office in his bar in Palm Beach, where everything and everyone together. As he tells us about the early days nearly three years ago. The days when any tip could be the golden tip. When he reached three times around the whole island has walked.

One of the most memorable tips came from a man who lived of the tip. , "He explained that he had seen people something rolled up in a carpet were dumped at the landfill. He had blond hair and was seen to be sure that it was Natalee.''After thirty days dig dirt, the carpet was Mansur, which includes up a palm tree. ,, The man had palmbladeren for Natalee's hair since. He was probably under the influence of drugs.''

Also Mansur can still recall that there is an arm aanspoelde in Punto Fijo, the Venezuelan place closest to the West Indies. ,, They sent the arm to the lab in Caracas. When we heard nothing more, I check call. What was found? Did they arm in Caracas discarded because it would have been a pelikanenpoot.''The businessman is there to this day convinced that it was an arm. ,, I have seen a picture, and although the quality was bad, it was clearly an arm.''

The Arubaan has grey hairs of the case. Why is he anyway? ,, I want to see the past. The family this tragedy can be closed. I want them their daughter back. And I want the right people behind bars controversy: Joran, his father, the genius behind this cover-up, and some dirty cops.''

http://www.ad.nl/holloway/weblog/article2033548.ece

[Anna]

Hotping,
I just find it troubling that the word of a teen-aged punk is taken as factual for whether or not a person was deceased even in his confession.

Since when is Joran even remotely qualified to pronounce people as living or deceased?  What training and certification does he hold to do this?

So to me, everything after he made this pronouncement falls on him as he took it upon himself to decide who was living and wasn't.

If one goes to Aruba, is this something that can be expected, punks stating you are dead and disposing of you and it called only a misdemeanor disposal of a corpse because they are allowed to make this determination?

Have they never heard of a Death Certificate and that one is required for such things as insurance and burial?

Well, unless Joran is involved then he makes that determination all on his own and suddenly his confession takes that as a fact and he is only suspected of disposal of a corpse.

This is ludicrous!  I don't know about others involved as perhaps they took the word for Joran that Natalee was deceased and assumed he had bothered to check or knew what he was talking about.  Seems they are not the only ones as authorities seem eager to take his word as well and call it only wrongful disposal, etc.

Without the requirement for coroner or physician to declare a person deceased, you can bet this might not be the first time someone has been buried or disposed of it all it takes is the word of a known teen aged punk.

The assumption should be that the person is alive until declared otherwise by someone with the authority to do so, that would not be Joran in any event.

.

[hotping]

Hotping,
I just find it troubling that the word of a teen-aged punk is taken as factual for whether or not a person was deceased even in his confession.

Since when is Joran even remotely qualified to pronounce people as living or deceased?  What training and certification does he hold to do this?

So to me, everything after he made this pronouncement falls on him as he took it upon himself to decide who was living and wasn't.

If one goes to Aruba, is this something that can be expected, punks stating you are dead and disposing of you and it called only a misdemeanor disposal of a corpse because they are allowed to make this determination?

Have they never heard of a Death Certificate and that one is required for such things as insurance and burial?

Well, unless Joran is involved then he makes that determination all on his own and suddenly his confession takes that as a fact and he is only suspected of disposal of a corpse.

This is ludicrous!  I don't know about others involved as perhaps they took the word for Joran that Natalee was deceased and assumed he had bothered to check or knew what he was talking about.  Seems they are not the only ones as authorities seem eager to take his word as well and call it only wrongful disposal, etc.

Without the requirement for coroner or physician to declare a person deceased, you can bet this might not be the first time someone has been buried or disposed of it all it takes is the word of a known teen aged punk.

The assumption should be that the person is alive until declared otherwise by someone with the authority to do so, that would not be Joran in any event.

.

I feel the same way....many years ago a young man was run over by an eighteen wheeler in front of My Father's business....He was most definitely deceased so before the police even got there someone covered him with a blanket that they had in their car...when the police did arrive They were very upset because the body had been covered before the proper authorities had pronounced Him dead...Joran said that He did not know if She was dead or not....So if She was disposed of without Joran and Daddy I mean Daury not knowing for sure if She was dead that is Murder.....IMO

[hotping]

Good Night All!

[Observer]

 


NANCY GRACE: FEATURING MR. JUG TWITTY
Part1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-O7ApQQi5IU
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRVij3iCzH8
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EndajyysbLI
Part4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4a0q9EWqv4
Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykPb5f9AUwM

[Anna]

Natalee was still LEGALLY alive when put into the ocean regardless of Joran's opinion.

Unless someone has appointed him Junior Coroner or something, he is not qualified to make that determination.  OM saying he ONLY confessed to disposal is ludicrous.

Natalee was not elderly and infirm but a young healthy person seen very much alive minutes before Joran claims to have disposed of her.  His opinion as to her state should count for zilch and I can't believe they are even taking his word on this at all.

Goes back to how stupid do they think we are, anyway.

[Nut44x4]

I don't believe the perry /patrick boat thing. Let's look at everyone who :
a.) has a brother
b.) brother was on Aruba
c.) brother has a boat
d.) no alibi for the night of or the next night of
OR:
Look at who confessed and who made many conflicitng statements
AND Who was the last person with Natalee.

Kat_Gram:  Sorry, I wasn't implying any boat connection with Perry to Joran...
It doesn't matter who owns the boat...(Sorry for my error) Just that info came from "someone" to Jossy about the "Wet Dream" and here's Daury on the boat.

The day after J2K are re-arrested & questioned the boat is in an explosion...evidence?

Info came from "someone" to Jossy????  Are you kidding?  A boat has an explosion, Jossy is the Managing Editor of a news paper, it's NEWS.

Everything that happens in Aruba doesn't pertain to the Natalee Holloway case, lol 

This is all from RU posts by Glenda and Jenna...3 threads over there regarding this .....

Recent RU threads:
1. Patrick denies his brother owns a Watersports Company  by Glenda/Julia 2-7
2. Booshi Wever   by Jenna 2-11
3. What are we missing about the Watersports Company?  by Jenna on 2-11

[caesu]

I have a question concerning Dutch/Aruban law.

Wouldn't a person be legally considered still alive until declared otherwise by a coroner, physician or at least member of the medical community such as Emergency Med Tech?

Is Joran authorized to declare a person as deceased?

If not, then legally, was he not responsible for what was legally considered a still live person being put into the ocean as a distance from shore from which it was impossible for them to swim, recover, etc.

How is this not murder since it is only the word of the perpetrator to the crime that she was dead at the time?

It's really scary to think someone like Joran can go around declaring who is living and who is not and act according to his own determination.

This is legal?  WoW!

.

very interesting point. it makes sense to me.


but it don't understand much about dutch law. especially in this case.
it seems to be designed to get people off the hook.
the judiciary seems to be not prepared for this.
but the evidence is inside the OM at aruba i think.
the dutch OM should issue a warrant to search the OM at aruba.
and the higher court at curaçao.
such a mindboggling mess this one. court case of the century already.
at least for the netherlands that is.

[MumInOhio]

Posted by FierlJepper at Scrux:


I was listening to my I-pod Touch (in bed) and watched a part of the DeVries show when I suddenly spotted an interesting 'slip of the tongue' about how Joran mixes up the 'him' and the 'they'.

It's in the following scene and I include in bold what was completely lost in translation.


P: Those Deepak and Satish?

J: Dumb boys, Patrick, they are not even worth it.

P: They dropped you off.

J: Yes, imagine how slick I had to be to persuade him ... to persuade them to say they had dropped me off at my hotel. That truly messed things up, that messed things up.

P: But of course.

J: So I told him, but if the police come, Deepak and Satish have dropped me off at the beach there, so I will have to talk with them also. Then he (<- FJ: Joran doesnt say 'he' at all!!!) they said, "Yes, that is true."

P: So you never told these two anything?

J: Never, never, never. Looking back I did not think that this shit would be so much...


I suddenly got the strong feeling that Daury isn't a single person, but that at least two people arrived and witnessed the 'situation'. Since Joran was lying about the number of people in is confession to Patrick, he suffered from quite some slips of the tongue and also was forced by his lie to make himself one of the carriers to the boat. In reality the two helpers could have told him to rush home and to get an alibi asap. They then carried Natalee to the boat without Joran present, but they did tell him about he mode of disposal after the fact.

This scenario would fit the timelines very well...

P.S.
How about his friends Luis and Joshua? They were at the HI that night.

Columbian and Venezuelan....Jaime 'Beto' and Freddy....Seems from Joran's book Luis and Joshua hung around the beach just like Joran, Jaime and Freddy....no mention anywhere form the MB'ers about Luis and Joshua...IMO...he switched the names to protect the guilty....

From Joran's 6/9 PV
After that the group of girls walked to the Sportsbar. In the Sportsbar I also saw to two acquaintances who were watching baseball. I greeted my two acquaintances, and told them that I was doing fine too, and that I would be going to "Carlos & Charlies" that night. My two acquaintances are named "Luis" and "Joshua". I regularly meet them at Carlos & Charlies. The last name of Luis is "BETANCOURT". I do not know the last name of Joshua. Luis BETANCOURT is a Venezuelan, and according to me Joshua is Colombian but I don't know that for sure.

[MumInOhio]

caesu...are you aware that there is an American tourist missing since January from St. Maarten?

I hope your PM addresses that one on his visit as well....

I was misunderstood yesterday, when I asked if our new Monkeys from the Netherlands had read Joran's book. As far as literacy value it probably has none.

The only value I have found is to compare the lies to the PVs and identify a few more friends/pimps. Remember it appears Joran had access to all the statements, including the 302s from the States.

[San]

I have a question concerning Dutch/Aruban law.

Wouldn't a person be legally considered still alive until declared otherwise by a coroner, physician or at least member of the medical community such as Emergency Med Tech?

Is Joran authorized to declare a person as deceased?

If not, then legally, was he not responsible for what was legally considered a still live person being put into the ocean as a distance from shore from which it was impossible for them to swim, recover, etc.

How is this not murder since it is only the word of the perpetrator to the crime that she was dead at the time?

It's really scary to think someone like Joran can go around declaring who is living and who is not and act according to his own determination.

This is legal?  WoW!
.

I agree Anna.  This is very scary that Joran is allowed to determine who is dead or not.  The only way he can determine that is if he outright murdered her.

They mentioned on the of the shows that Joran gave the "order" to dump her in the ocean.  My my he has such power doesn't he.  He was saying she was alive but he gave an order to dump her.  That is murder.

[MumInOhio]

Lala's...here's the info on GVC and the tourist...maybe I should post in the Shango thread....I know you'll see it there....LOL

Prev. posted Feb.5th.

Here's the article about GVC...I just read at reihlworld that Nat's friends had seen her talking to GVC see bottom of page.

Interview With Cromvoirt Acquaintance
Though currently studying abroad, I was able to establish contact and do a brief phone interview with a young American girl acquainted with current detainee in the Natalee Holloway investigation, Geoffrey van Cromvoirt.

She is still somewhat shaken by news of his arrest, particularly as it was June 9th, 2005, the night Joran Van der Sloot and the two Kalpoe brothers were arrested, when she met GVC at Carlos and Charlies. She was able to provide the day of the week, Thursday, which matches with the night of the three boys arrests. After speaking with her, I've no reason to doubt her veracity.

GVC was alone at Carlos and Charlies that night keeping mostly to himself. She could only remember him saying hello to one other person passing by that night in the club. After some initial eye contact, it was she who approached GVC. He immediately appeared to open up.

One item of possible interest, he told her that he worked during the day taking tourists out on a Catamaran. While I have no way of ascertaining it was the same catamaran, I do recall photos taken by the Mountain Brook students showing that they did take such a trip.

GVC struck her as something of a self promoter, constantly talking about himself, his many connections and his family's supposed wealth. She also recalled seeing images of some famous individuals he had stored in his cell phone, noting that GVC did not appear with those people in said pictures. Still, he insisted they were friends.

On another night, she may have been less receptive to the seemingly brash young man, but she found him attractive, she was on vacation and the two eventually danced. She indicated that there were no drugs involved, though both were drinking. At some point, GVC offered her a ride to her hotel and a male friend of the young woman went along.

GVC did apparently brag about being involved with security, trying to exert some pressure on a hotel guard to acknowledge who he was. The guard apparently failed to acknowledge him in any significant manner. She believes he was driving a jeep at the time, possibly blue and that he also mentioned a recent or pending purchase of a truck, color unknown.

Back at her hotel, it was decided that he would leave behind his ID and possibly some other wallet contents with her friends as security before the two went back out alone together. They spent approximately a half an hour or so together, primarily on the beach. The only potentially unusual thing she noticed during their time on the beach was that he might have been a bit nervous, looking about - at one point claiming he saw a security guard coming. She could not see a guard.

After some time on the beach his cell phone started ringing but he did not answer it. She believes it rang several times in succession, possibly as many as seven times. When she inquired about the calls, he stated that it was his Mother and that he had to get home. He kept reiterating, he had to go. She was puzzled at this as she believed him to be 19 years old at the time.

After a night of being extremely talkative, mostly about himself, she did eventually ask him in a casual way about the Natalee Holloway case. She feels very strongly that it was at that point his demeanor significantly changed. He almost completely stopped talking while the two were walking, swiftly now, back to her hotel.

She asked a few different questions ... if he knew of the case, of those involved, what was it that he thought. But he did not answer any of those questions, or change the topic. He mostly just stopped talking at all. They returned to her hotel, a friend brought down his things and that was the last she saw of him until his recent arrest. She felt he all but took off running, likely related to the phone calls, as he left.

Later after leaving the island, the interaction did leave her with a strange feeling, mostly because of his sudden silence when the topic of Natalee Holloway came up. Unsure if it meant anything, or not, eventually she did call the FBI. She gave them what information she could as regards the encounter, much of which I have now relayed here.

It remains unclear what, if any connection GVC has to the Holloway case. But at least one individual who spent some time with the boy soon after the disappearance was troubled enough about his demeanor simply talking about the case to make a call to the FBI.

I have agreed to keep her identity secret.


------------------------


According to what Holloway's friends have told authorities, the blond-haired, blue-eyed van Cromvoirt was seen with their classmate after she left van der Sloot - the pals say they saw them in the Holiday Inn casino together. But when the casino's video surveillance tapes were turned over to police, investigators could find no sign of Holloway and van Cromvoirt, the source noted.

Van Cromvoirt's father is the security expert in charge of video surveillance at the hotel.

Aruban authorities are also scrutinizing a surveillance tape taken earlier on May 30 that shows Holloway arguing with a light-haired young man in a jewelry store in the Wyndham Hotel, according to the source.

[Peaches]

Klaas, aren't they just essentially changing the name from Carlos 'n Charlies to Senior Frogs? Do you know why they are doing this? Could it be b/c of the case?

Good morning.  Just catching up before leaving for chemo.  I thought CnC and Sr. Frog's were owned by the same company.  Calling it something else isn't going to change what goes on inside.  Big waste of time and money if you ask me.

[Rob]

Arm bone from Pelican?

Someone better get that arm bone to the Smithsonian. Pronto. That would be a new species as far as I know. One with fingers.

Can ya just imagine?

A pelican that can open jars, turn handles, drive a car, work a calculator, and can probably post on the net. It can probably bait a hook too.... so why all that effort diving into the sea...LOL

That's a new legendary monster for the Arubans to conjure up all kinds of fantasies.

Good Morning everyone.

[private eye]

Greta doesn't think Joran is going to be arrested by weeks end.

Bernie said you can't be convicted based on your own statement.

Ted said there is a lot of political pressure.  There is some kind of admission that he helped dispose of a body.

Greta said Helen Lejeuz said it was a 3 or 4 defense and you can't extradite back based on that.

Jim Hammer said in his heart he cannot say he murdered Natalee.  He said he thinks we are still stuck.  Unless Deepak or someone talks.

Basically all are saying he had more to do with it then he is saying.  They will not be able to prosecute him.

Bernie said what he finds troubling is law enforcement and Greta made a quick comment and said what law enforcement.

Greta said what do the police know because they questioned Jug back in 2005.

Greta said if she were Natalee's parents she would be to my congressmen, my senator, my governor and saying you know we ought to do something these police officers if they knew something right after she disappeared and that's why they asked Jug those questions and they did nothing.

Ted said shame on them.

Hammer needs to read the transcript again. Joran plainly stated that he did not know if she was alive or not when he dumped her into the ocean. Hammer's heart gives the benefit of the doubt to version that she was already dead, even though it was Joran's fault that we don't know. Pretty pathetic