Natalee Case Discussion #729 2/11 - 2/13/08

[Shell]

doing a drive by.... I don't know if anyone has heard yet... prolly but Beth will be doing Dana's show tomorrow... I can't wait!!

Would also like to hear Peter's thoughts on the corruption. Thanks![/b]

I would like to hear is thoughts on this also. Hopefully Beth told him a little about her experience in Holland,because so far he has just said things like "I found that strange" and Natalee died under mysterious circumstances.

I think Peter will get to that part of the case in good time, then POW, right in the kisser.

[Tamikosmom]

According to Kruimel, the Om has received a lot of tips through mail and email. Kruimel: "we absolutely think we can solve the case".

We've heard this bullshit before from OMs Karen Jannsen and Hans Mos. Action speaks louder than words. Peter deVries has handed them the case on a silver platter. Just do it!

BIRMINGHAM NEWS

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/11/new_evidence_leads_to_rearrest.html

New evidence leads to re-arrests in Holloway case
November 21, 2007 4:46 PM

Natalee Holloway"The public prosecutor's office has ordered their renewed arrest because further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating evidence," the statement said.

Adolpho Richardson, one of the lead investigators in the case, would not discuss the new evidence but said he was optimistic about it. He said the arrests were not related to a Dec. 31 deadline that prosecutors have under Aruban law to determine whether to move forward with the case.

"This case is not going to go unsolved -- not on my watch," he said Wednesday.

[ShinkinMonk]

I don't know Joran or his father, nor anyone else involved here.  But, I do have to say that Joran does seem narcissitic!!  The sense of being "special" and that others are beneath him.  It seems others are objects to him, classic narcissism.  If it's true that he gave his son a cell phone, told him, "no body, no crime", and/or helped him dispose of Natalee's body (or cover it up) then I would say there is a strong likelihood he's a narcissist, too.  I wonder what is wrong with the mom, dependent personality? 

I don't recall the necktie off the top of my head...

[Observer]

According to Kruimel, the Om has received a lot of tips through mail and email. Kruimel: "we absolutely think we can solve the case".

We've heard this bullshit before from OMs Karen Jannsen and Hans Mos. Action speaks louder than words. Peter deVries has handed them the case on a silver platter. Just do it!

Haha havent we? Granted we havent heard much from her yet,she has Karen's old job more less. I think that Mos is more of a PR guy.

[Bladerunner]

There are so many ways to tell if someone is lying.  It's a really hard skill to learn - lie detection.  A few things that I learned - excessive detail, touching the face during response, and looking to the left.  Excessive detail showes a need to overly prove oneself (doubt/insecurity), a face touch (can represent covering one's mouth - not wanting to reveal), and looking to the right indicates a person is accessing the right hemosphere of their brain - the creative side, thus perhaps lying.  But, each person is different and one needs to carefully observe to determine one's pattern when lying.  It's tricky.

But, yes, this "Shrink" has been following all this from day one and reading all these posts.

This was posted earlier and I had a similar reaction, what do you think doc?

Quote from: jackb on February 11, 2008, 09:49:40 PM
Quote from: BlueKYGirl on February 11, 2008, 07:57:07 PM
Quote from: klaasend on February 11, 2008, 07:53:07 PM
Quote from: San on February 11, 2008, 07:52:06 PM
Body language lady said there is no real emotion in this man.  She is concerned because he is not even looking at the person when he talks.


Are they talking about Joran?


Yes--O'Reilly asked if she thought Joran was lying or not, and she said she couldn't say for sure.


At one point he looked as if he were reliving something with a fondness, almost a sweetness, like he had a fondness for that memory.  It was a look that is stuck in my head when I saw his expression.  It was a look like when a normal person would be recalling an old friend and something rather amusing took place.  At points, he did look amused, like he could not part with his best memory of the event as it was just so special to him.  That is what I saw when he was speaking of the event.  It was almost like fondness for a joke he pulled on someone, but he was holding back being amused as he was since he knew it was just not really proper and he had not seen how the listner would react.....like he was waiting for Patrick to agree how funny it was.           Jack Blue

[Dayhiker]

We've heard this bullshit before from OMs Karen Jannsen and Hans Mos. Action speaks louder than words. Peter deVries has handed them the case on a silver platter. Just do it!

Haha havent we? Reaching a critical stage? They will all be questioned again at Christmas? Guilty as hell? New Evidence that will bring them to trial?

Granted we havent heard much from her yet,she has Karen's old job more less. I think that Mos is more of a PR guy.

Damn straight *******, we could rattle off a list as long as your arm about the promises made by Aruban OMs, police chiefs, media whores, etcetera when all along they were just trying to drag the case out hoping it would go away. They thought they'd gotten their wish until Joran shot his mouth off to Patrick.

[ShinkinMonk]

As I watched Joran on those tapes and as he spoke he seemed to be seeing what he was describing.  I also know that most people confessing will likely minimize their stories - giving themselves an out, not telling it all, altering it just so to clear themselves.

[BlueBob]

Shinkin, I think PVDS handled the disposal. . .and he and Joran have always seemed to me really confident that Natalee's body wouldn't be found.  That's why I think the incinerator was involved.  Somebody who had worked there wound up with a slit throat, I think.  Klaas will remember the details.  If Natalee's body had been disposed of at sea, I would think that Joran and Paulus would have seemed a lot more tense.  As for the mom, i agree about the dependent personality. . .I think she is an inverted narcissist.

Bluebob
Monkey Emeritas
(I don't have an official title due to my previous retirement, so I appointed myself this one.)

[Shell]

I don't know Joran or his father, nor anyone else involved here.  But, I do have to say that Joran does seem narcissitic!!  The sense of being "special" and that others are beneath him.  It seems others are objects to him, classic narcissism.  If it's true that he gave his son a cell phone, told him, "no body, no crime", and/or helped him dispose of Natalee's body (or cover it up) then I would say there is a strong likelihood he's a narcissist, too.  I wonder what is wrong with the mom, dependent personality? 

I don't recall the necktie off the top of my head...

the Mom seems like an enabler to me.

[Dayhiker]

BIRMINGHAM NEWS

http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2007/11/new_evidence_leads_to_rearrest.html

New evidence leads to re-arrests in Holloway case
November 21, 2007 4:46 PM

Natalee Holloway"The public prosecutor's office has ordered their renewed arrest because further investigation into the disappearance has led to new incriminating evidence," the statement said.

Adolpho Richardson, one of the lead investigators in the case, would not discuss the new evidence but said he was optimistic about it. He said the arrests were not related to a Dec. 31 deadline that prosecutors have under Aruban law to determine whether to move forward with the case.

"This case is not going to go unsolved -- not on my watch," he said Wednesday.

One more for the heap! Thanks Janet.

[BlueBob]

I think Joran has repeated these stories and their various versions enough that the NLP stuff we learned re: looking up and to the right being a sign of truthfulness and to the left being lies. . .with him we can probably thow those ideas out.  He may be looking through his brain to hit on the right store and remembering one of the previous times he told it, rather than recalling the scene as it occurred!

Bluebob
Monkey Emeritas (Self-proclaimed)

[ShinkinMonk]

I dunno... I get the sense that Nat's body was not incinerated.  He mentioned, K2 mentioned that "if her body was found..." incriminating evidence would be found.  Those repeated statements would lead me to think that they are concerned about evidence out there.  Otherwise I think they would be more cocky. 

Regarding the mother, if she's with a narcissist and her son is one, too, she's likely a dependent personality, they will conform to the wishes of the narcissist.  It's essential that the narcissist control them.  The dependent personality needs a strong person to tell them what to do, how to feel, etc.

[klaasend]

[BlueBob]

I have had some pretty intense dealings with several world-class NP's - and they lie really, really well.  Even when you know they lie, they can still be convincing.  I do agree that JVDS seemed to be telling the truth about two things. . .the convulsions and how sweet he said Natalee looked.

Bluebob
Monkey Emeritas (Unofficial)

[Bladerunner]

Here's my analysis: this photo is all you need to know.

[klaasend]

Here's my analysis: this photo is all you need to know.

I believe that photo was taken right around the time of the confession/retraction. Looks like someone that just confessed to me and doesn't know if his father can get him out of it.

[BlueBob]

Patrick hit the nail on the head when he said that JVDS seemed like an alien, or something to that effect.  That is a really good description of an NP.

[Frank]

Anybody have Jossy's email address.

Promoting Joran on Greta.

I really think we should ignore Joran, we're done with him, if we're focusing our guns they need to be on Janssen and van der straaten and Paulus.

It's always been about the big people, the adults.

Anyone who's raised teenagers knows they try so hard to avoid their transparency. Those cringe moments when someone you would die for lies and thinks they're smart.

[klaasend]

Patrick hit the nail on the head when he said that JVDS seemed like an alien, or something to that effect.  That is a really good description of an NP.

BB - I agree with everything you have said about Joran.

[ShinkinMonk]

Ok, all... good to see all the rejuvinated talk here.  I do believe that Nat's case will be resolved.  Aruba makes me sick!  ALE seems totally untrustworthy.  I'd never vacation there!  Joran, hopefully will get his dues.  Even if so, let's say he gets 20 years... year 21 he'll still think he's tops and that Nat was a B-....  Get's me to think he refuses to take ANY responsibility.  Plus, it makes me sick to hear his lawyers blatently trying to figure out how to get him off, vs. justice.  I think his lawyer knows exactly what Joran did and I think they would defend him vigorously regardless, hey money is money and lawyers can be sharks!  Money, fame....hey, grab on defense lawyers...you're guaranteed to make money, right?   ERRRR grrrrr