Natalee Case Discussion #729 2/11 - 2/13/08

[klaasend]

Beth and Dave both on NBC/13 Birmingham

Both think that Joran is getting preferential treatment from both
the Dutch and Aruban justice departments.

Joran was only questioned by one investigator.

Most of the other was stuff we already know.

Beth's last statement was that if the 3 judge panel refuses
to rearrest Joran, that Aruban authorities will go ahead and
file Murder charges against him and take him to trial.

Thanks Magnolia!

[Tamikosmom]

Janet:

Everything seemed very credible in Junior's story..He had us all fooled back then. He pointed out everyone and every vehicle..He even pointed out PVDS directing the boys outside of the gate. The only car that was not familiar to me was the yellow station wagon with a woman in it?

******* ... I cannot find that post/article which implied that a woman wearing a scarf was sitting in a vehicle outside the fence of the landfill.  I thought the vehicle was a red jeep but ... I could be mistaken.

Do you have that post/article?

Janet

[Bladerunner]

How can there be any sense of integrity for a trial held in Aruba??

[Magnolia]

I should have said that Beth said that she believes the Aruban
authorities will file charges against Joran for Murder and take
him to trial.

[Bladerunner]

I should have said that Beth said that she believes the Aruban
authorities will file charges against Joran for Murder and take
him to trial.

If that happens it will only be a continuation of the coverup IMO. A trial in Aruba involves a jury, correct? I wonder what kind of selection process that is??

[klaasend]

I should have said that Beth said that she believes the Aruban
authorities will file charges against Joran for Murder and take
him to trial.

If that happens it will only be a continuation of the coverup IMO. A trial in Aruba involves a jury, correct? I wonder what kind of selection process that is??

NO - there is no jury trials in Aruba.  Just a trial in front of the Judges, I think 3 Judges.

[Observer]

Janet:

Everything seemed very credible in Junior's story..He had us all fooled back then. He pointed out everyone and every vehicle..He even pointed out PVDS directing the boys outside of the gate. The only car that was not familiar to me was the yellow station wagon with a woman in it?

******* ... I cannot find that post/article which implied that a woman wearing a scarf was sitting in a vehicle outside the fence of the landfill.  I thought the vehicle was a red jeep but ... I could be mistaken.

Do you have that post/article?

Janet

I don't at the moment and my searching skills take 10 times longer than you and klaas :)But my memory is like a elephant..LOL!! Junior described the red jeep but he also described a yellow station wagon which stood out for me,considering I have never seen anyone with that vehicle in Aruba.

[txsunshine82]

The pool they used to cover her with should be able to be found easily one should think. Was this pool a small kids plastic pool, I have been confused by that detail?

The pool they used to cover her with should be able to be found easily one should think. Was this pool a small kids plastic pool, I have been confused by that detail?

I know I am roboposting ... I submitted this post a while back but ... it saves me time.

Janet

+++++++++

I adhere to the theory that Natalee Holloway was placed in the landfill.

The account of Junior ... the landfill witness ... is consistent and …. with much detail was conveyed by his brother to the ALE in the first week of the investigation.  Almost two month later the same story was related to Natalee's family.  Junior provided a description of the vehicle and … he recorded a licence (tag) number. Junior identifies the location where he observed Natalee was placed and .. he described the child’s plastic pool which was used as a covering and ... the plastic pool was recovered in that location by TES/Dave Holloway almost two months later.
 
I comprehend that Junior failed the polygraph test administered by Jamie Skeeter. However … it should be noted that Junior had volunteered to take that test and … it is known that those who are afflicted with mental disorders/addictions are often very poor candidates for lie detector tests. Also … if Junior feared intimidation by the “powers that be” in Aruba … again the outcome of the polygraph would be considered inconclusive when the stress factor is considered.
 
I believe it is possible that Natalee was moved from the landfill following Junior's observation.
 
Junior's brother came forward to authorities on June 3, 2005 … two days after Junior's observation at the landfill on June 1, 2005.  When Junior came forward to Beth Twitty two months later with the same story .... ALE claimed that authorities had gone to the landfill and checked out Junior's original story and .... found nothing. I contend that .... knowing the exact location and .... after only two days had passed since the observation ... the "powers that be" would have had no difficulty locating Natalee.. I suspect that on June 3, 2005 … Natalee could have been moved as a result of Junior's observation.

I find it highly suspicious that Junior's brother came forward to authorities on June 3, 2005 regarding the happening which Junior had observed at the landfill on June 1, 2005 and ..... the Holloway and Twitty's did not find out about this witness until Junior personally contacted them two months later.
 
Inquiring minds want to know ... WHY?

When I read about the man that saw the vehicle ,he recorded a licence (tag) number.  I thought then how easy it would be for someone to borrow a tag off of another car. Use someone else's tag while they took care of Natalee.  Then take the tag back when they are through. Were there many questions asked to the owner of the car? Who knows the people that it came back to.  Where was their car and was it parked for long time.
Do they still have the piece of clothes that looked like Natalee's?  Then again, the man may have wrote the wrong number down.

It probably was the original tag, why would the coverup crew worry about that?  It was reported to the police.
[/quote]

Do you think the man got confused and turned in the wrong license plate number? Since the number he gave them was for a different vehicle.

[Bladerunner]

I should have said that Beth said that she believes the Aruban
authorities will file charges against Joran for Murder and take
him to trial.

If that happens it will only be a continuation of the coverup IMO. A trial in Aruba involves a jury, correct? I wonder what kind of selection process that is??

NO - there is no jury trials in Aruba.  Just a trial in front of the Judges, I think 3 Judges.

Your right.
http://www.aruba.com/about/judicialsystem.php

This one is my favorite:

Police investigation

11. Under supervision of prosecutor

12. Suspect must be informed of his rights

13. Suspect has the right to an attorney and not to incriminate himself

14. Hours of investigation limited. No investigation b/w 22:00 and 08:00

15. Written record is made of all interrogations, not a complete transcript, which will go on file

[texasmom]

Janet:

Everything seemed very credible in Junior's story..He had us all fooled back then. He pointed out everyone and every vehicle..He even pointed out PVDS directing the boys outside of the gate. The only car that was not familiar to me was the yellow station wagon with a woman in it?

******* ... I cannot find that post/article which implied that a woman wearing a scarf was sitting in a vehicle outside the fence of the landfill.  I thought the vehicle was a red jeep but ... I could be mistaken.

Do you have that post/article?

Janet

I don't at the moment and my searching skills take 10 times longer than you and klaas :)But my memory is like a elephant..LOL!! Junior described the red jeep but he also described a yellow station wagon which stood out for me,considering I have never seen anyone with that vehicle in Aruba.

*******,
I remember a picture/pictures of different vehicles that "watched" it seemed while the landfill search was in progress.  I remember seeing a picture of a yellow station wagon at one time although I remember 3 people one being a woman; and a jeep (I think White) at another time with one man.  I believe these were shown on Greta's show.

[Bladerunner]

The pool they used to cover her with should be able to be found easily one should think. Was this pool a small kids plastic pool, I have been confused by that detail?

The pool they used to cover her with should be able to be found easily one should think. Was this pool a small kids plastic pool, I have been confused by that detail?

I know I am roboposting ... I submitted this post a while back but ... it saves me time.

Janet

+++++++++

I adhere to the theory that Natalee Holloway was placed in the landfill.

The account of Junior ... the landfill witness ... is consistent and …. with much detail was conveyed by his brother to the ALE in the first week of the investigation.  Almost two month later the same story was related to Natalee's family.  Junior provided a description of the vehicle and … he recorded a licence (tag) number. Junior identifies the location where he observed Natalee was placed and .. he described the child’s plastic pool which was used as a covering and ... the plastic pool was recovered in that location by TES/Dave Holloway almost two months later.
 
I comprehend that Junior failed the polygraph test administered by Jamie Skeeter. However … it should be noted that Junior had volunteered to take that test and … it is known that those who are afflicted with mental disorders/addictions are often very poor candidates for lie detector tests. Also … if Junior feared intimidation by the “powers that be” in Aruba … again the outcome of the polygraph would be considered inconclusive when the stress factor is considered.
 
I believe it is possible that Natalee was moved from the landfill following Junior's observation.
 
Junior's brother came forward to authorities on June 3, 2005 … two days after Junior's observation at the landfill on June 1, 2005.  When Junior came forward to Beth Twitty two months later with the same story .... ALE claimed that authorities had gone to the landfill and checked out Junior's original story and .... found nothing. I contend that .... knowing the exact location and .... after only two days had passed since the observation ... the "powers that be" would have had no difficulty locating Natalee.. I suspect that on June 3, 2005 … Natalee could have been moved as a result of Junior's observation.

I find it highly suspicious that Junior's brother came forward to authorities on June 3, 2005 regarding the happening which Junior had observed at the landfill on June 1, 2005 and ..... the Holloway and Twitty's did not find out about this witness until Junior personally contacted them two months later.
 
Inquiring minds want to know ... WHY?

When I read about the man that saw the vehicle ,he recorded a licence (tag) number.  I thought then how easy it would be for someone to borrow a tag off of another car. Use someone else's tag while they took care of Natalee.  Then take the tag back when they are through. Were there many questions asked to the owner of the car? Who knows the people that it came back to.  Where was their car and was it parked for long time.
Do they still have the piece of clothes that looked like Natalee's?  Then again, the man may have wrote the wrong number down.

It probably was the original tag, why would the coverup crew worry about that?  It was reported to the police.

Do you think the man got confused and turned in the wrong license plate number? Since the number he gave them was for a different vehicle.
[/quote]

No. The didn't driver gave a rats ass about being seen since the license # would be reported to the police. Meaning, the police just make shit up, like, that plate came back for a different car.

[Tamikosmom]

Beth and Dave both on NBC/13 Birmingham

Both think that Joran is getting preferential treatment from both
the Dutch and Aruban justice departments.

Joran was only questioned by one investigator.

Most of the other was stuff we already know.

Beth's last statement was that if the 3 judge panel refuses to rearrest Joran, that Aruban authorities will go ahead and
file Murder charges against him and take him to trial.

Thank you Magnolia.

In December, 2007 ... Hans Mos did not pursue taking Joran, Deepak and Satish to trial followng ruling against him that there was insufficient evidence for further detention.

Why would this time be any different?

Janet

++++++++

Natalee Holloway Case Dismissed
By NBC 13 Staff
E-mail
From a press release by the Aruban Public Prosecutor’s Office:

<snipped>

Since the release of all three suspects the Public Prosecutor’s Office has diligently considered and weighed all available evidence. It came to the opinion that the investigation did not bring about sufficient evidence to convince a Court of law that a crime of violence against Natalee Holloway has been committed, nor that her death has been caused by involuntary actions by either of the suspects. Neither was sufficient evidence gathered for sexual abuse. The Public Prosecutor’s Office expects that if this case would be tried in court it would lead to an acquittal of all three suspects on these various charges. Given that expectation the Public Prosecutor could no longer press charges against all three. It is contrary to the professional conduct to prosecute someone if the prosecutor himself expects an acquittal.

<snipped>

http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-12-18-0004.html

[Magnolia]

I know we don't understand their system, but it could be
that they have enough evidence to convict Joran but
not enough to keep him detained, since they have to
come up with something new every ten days.

[Tylergal]

You know we all talk about what we know and what we want, but there are two things I want to mention that we think of often but apparently do not take the time to get beyond the epidermis of our thinking process to the meaty tissue.

We all say what we want Mos to do.  How do we know what exactly Mos is doing?   I doubt he is going to tell us given the type of government he is operating with.  If he tells us, he only sets up a defense for Joran and Paulus.

we all say we want our government to do something.  How do we know what our government has/has not done behind the scenes.  Who knows if there are FBI agents on the ground in Aruba?  I certainly hope if they are there, the Arubans don't know it because they might drug them and send them out to sea.

We all say what we want JQK to do and that he has done nothing.  We have no idea what he knows or what goes on behind the scenes.  It is not JQKs job to tell us what he does for Beth and I think in some cases, he is tight lipped with Beth.  Remember the plane landing with Bubba on it and who was waiting for him?  Bo.  We had no clue but if we had, I doubt it would have worked out as it did.

Sometimes I think if we take a chill pill and start thinking about all this, maybe it will make us feel better because there is usually something going on behind the scenes that our government does not want us to know, that Beth and JQK don't want us to know because, well, let's face it --- we are all kind of talkers, otherwise, we would not be here and speculating so much.

Now go ahead and tar-and-feather me, but sometimes I think we expect too much and let's not forget, that when we had nothing, nothing, Beth and Jossy were willing to give us what they could and Dana was willing to go on air and take what he had to give us hope for Natalee.

Now, Dana is going to have Peter de Vries and Beth.  What a great day that will be, but we must not lose faith in all the people who are working to bring about justice and let's try not to speculate about the ones who have helped, turning them into enemies, because they probably have done much that we will never hear of.

[Red]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/12/monkeys-media-reminder-beth-holloway-peter-r-devries-on-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio/

Monkeys Media Reminder … Beth Holloway & Peter R. DeVries on Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio

I hope everyone tunes in tomorrow night. Beth ... Peter R. DeVries. I believe we just got Art Wood as well.

[Bladerunner]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/12/monkeys-media-reminder-beth-holloway-peter-r-devries-on-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio/

Monkeys Media Reminder … Beth Holloway & Peter R. DeVries on Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio

I hope everyone tunes in tomorrow night. Beth ... Peter R. DeVries. I believe we just got Art Wood as well.

Cool!

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Monkeys!

Question: Other than we'd all like to see Joran's freedom removed immediately, what's the advantage to Joran being arrested right now, rather than being charged and going to trial?

He will remain silent in jail, I'd bet a lot on that. Don't flame me, but I'd rather any new questions be asked at trial than to give Tacky and company a heads up to prepare a spin. Did you see the spin he came up with after a few days thought on prior knowledge by ALE of the seizure as cause of death? He contends that he heard Jug speak of the questions re; seizures/epilepsy, and so when Joran was fabricating this fantasy to Patrick, he just ran with it. 

My "ideal" would be to charge Joran and immediately start the trial. There's enough to convict right now with the tape and overwhelming circumstantial evidence. The pattern of lies alone is daunting and purposeful. Right now, emotions on Aruba are higher than they will be as time passes, that's just human nature. I think it's possible that may have some influence, and I know that America is hot right now. Sadly, that too will cool if enough time goes by. A trial right now, IMO, is the absolute best bet.

There's a "slight" chance that left in the free world, Joran will do something stupid again. You'd think, no way, at this point, but that boy just has a real hard time keeping his mouth shut. JMHO!

[klaasend]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/12/monkeys-media-reminder-beth-holloway-peter-r-devries-on-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio/

Monkeys Media Reminder … Beth Holloway & Peter R. DeVries on Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio

I hope everyone tunes in tomorrow night. Beth ... Peter R. DeVries. I believe we just got Art Wood as well.

Excellent!  A trifecta! 

[Tamikosmom]

NEW FRONT PAGE POST:

http://scaredmonkeys.com/2008/02/12/monkeys-media-reminder-beth-holloway-peter-r-devries-on-dana-pretzer-show-on-scared-monkeys-radio/

Monkeys Media Reminder … Beth Holloway & Peter R. DeVries on Dana Pretzer Show on Scared Monkeys Radio

I hope everyone tunes in tomorrow night. Beth ... Peter R. DeVries. I believe we just got Art Wood as well.

ONE MORE SLEEP!!!

 

[Magnolia]

Beth and Dave both on NBC/13 Birmingham

Both think that Joran is getting preferential treatment from both
the Dutch and Aruban justice departments.

Joran was only questioned by one investigator.

Most of the other was stuff we already know.

Beth's last statement was that if the 3 judge panel refuses to rearrest Joran, that Aruban authorities will go ahead and
file Murder charges against him and take him to trial.

Thank you Magnolia.

In December, 2007 ... Hans Mos did not pursue taking Joran, Deepak and Satish to trial followng ruling against him that there was insufficient evidence for further detention.

Why would this time be any different?

Janet

++++++++

Natalee Holloway Case Dismissed
By NBC 13 Staff
E-mail
From a press release by the Aruban Public Prosecutor’s Office:

<snipped>

Since the release of all three suspects the Public Prosecutor’s Office has diligently considered and weighed all available evidence. It came to the opinion that the investigation did not bring about sufficient evidence to convince a Court of law that a crime of violence against Natalee Holloway has been committed, nor that her death has been caused by involuntary actions by either of the suspects. Neither was sufficient evidence gathered for sexual abuse. The Public Prosecutor’s Office expects that if this case would be tried in court it would lead to an acquittal of all three suspects on these various charges. Given that expectation the Public Prosecutor could no longer press charges against all three. It is contrary to the professional conduct to prosecute someone if the prosecutor himself expects an acquittal.

<snipped>

http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2007-12-18-0004.html

I think Joran's confession....be it true or not...would be substantial evidence.
It was legally obtained.  Law enforcement was not involved and one person
knew that the conversation was being taped.