Natalee Case Discussion #729 2/11 - 2/13/08

[Frank]

I guess that's a no on the Jossy email?

My issue is that I watch Jug Twitty, step up and nail it. Just verbalizing the words of the adults, calling out van der straaten, Janssen and Jacobs.

We're done with the teenager. Come on, regardless of how Natalee died, at that moment only an adult could have enough composure to make ANY decisions. Especially ones that supposedly are, 2 1/2 years later, still a mystery?

Step up Jossy, you were fooled. Stop calling out Tacopina and focus on ending this!

And Buckshot, I appreciate you reposting some of my old posts but you should really source it?

[Observer]

Tamikosmom:

GRETA VAN VAN SUSTEREN: What did you see?

JUNIOR: There were three who came before in a pickup truck. Then one was already there on the field. Then this other man and a woman along with two gentlemen in the back came. Yes, there was a woman--a woman who was brunette. There were two men in the back on the Jeep; also, there was a yellow car there.

VAN SUSTEREN: What time of day?

JUNIOR: This happened, well, at the time I saw them bury her it turns out that was the body of Natalee, the girl. At that time I thought it was just a tree--a coconut tree. That is what I thought. She was wrapped in plastic--covered in plastic--but there was a breeze and the bag sort of fell half way off and I saw half the body naked. It was a black plastic bag, and the woman was wearing no clothes. She had no clothes on. She was naked, just half her body I saw. I was by myself at that time at the place where we dump the garbage. How far? I was approximately seventy-five to eighty meters away. This was afternoon--4:30, 5:30--between 4:30 and 5:30. I, I felt there was something wrong, but more people kept coming from nearby. There was another car with a woman. The yellow car had a woman there, too, so, I thought there was nothing… Total, there were three cars; the pickup with the small trailer in the back, then there was a Jeep, and a yellow station wagon.

VAN SUSTEREN: When did he first call anybody about it?

JUNIOR: I called the Police, …that was… that happened on Monday or Sunday because at that time the picture of the guys they were looking for had not been published in the paper yet. That is right. And then I recognized them immediately when I saw the picture. I felt--one day later I called the Police. I was saying, you know, you just want to call, and call, and call, and call--day and night--I kept calling but I kept getting a tape.

VAN SUSTEREN: What is his level of certainty?

JUNIOR: Am I certain?  Yes, I am really sure.  That is why I think, today, “I’m sure, I’m sure. I have no doubt in my mind.” Yes. Also the father, I believe, yes, yes. Also him. I was even more sure it was this girl because now there were two cars. The Police have two cars--the red Jeep, which… I saw that. I saw that because the red Jeep was fine, but that came later, that was the next day. I was near the place where she was buried--may she rest in peace. I was there, maybe, nine days later.

VAN SUSTEREN: If there were three, does the father make four, or, is the father one of the three?

JUNIOR: The father came in the Jeep. He got out of the car. He was standing there and he was pointing and asking things. I was working, you know, but he was far and he was talking. I was just working and looking. He kept asking if everything was okay. Yes, they asked him. I thought that they were asking him, that is what I thought they were doing, asking him, “Where? Where?”

VAN SUSTEREN: Have the Police interviewed him [JUNIOR; my insertion] yet?

JUNIOR: The Police they have come to me and I pointed them to the place and they went for my message but never got it. They did not come back. This was in my mind and kept bothering me. I said this all to a friend of mine who lives nearby. I told her what happened and I said, "No one believes me."

VAN SUSTEREN: What, exactly, did he see of the body?

JUNIOR: Half body. I saw half the body and the hair flying in the wind--blowing in the wind. Then I was for sure because had it have been a coconut tree, then we would have seen the roots of it. You could see that, you know, it would move, but her hair was blowing. I saw half her body and it was naked. She was like this (demonstrating posture), with her legs like this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=666.msg94871#msg94871

http://members.aol.com/WorldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html

[Bladerunner]

Hi Monkeys!

Question: Other than we'd all like to see Joran's freedom removed immediately, what's the advantage to Joran being arrested right now, rather than being charged and going to trial?

He will remain silent in jail, I'd bet a lot on that. Don't flame me, but I'd rather any new questions be asked at trial than to give Tacky and company a heads up to prepare a spin. Did you see the spin he came up with after a few days thought on prior knowledge by ALE of the seizure as cause of death? He contends that he heard Jug speak of the questions re; seizures/epilepsy, and so when Joran was fabricating this fantasy to Patrick, he just ran with it. 

My "ideal" would be to charge Joran and immediately start the trial. There's enough to convict right now with the tape and overwhelming circumstantial evidence. The pattern of lies alone is daunting and purposeful. Right now, emotions on Aruba are higher than they will be as time passes, that's just human nature. I think it's possible that may have some influence, and I know that America is hot right now. Sadly, that too will cool if enough time goes by. A trial right now, IMO, is the absolute best bet.

There's a "slight" chance that left in the free world, Joran will do something stupid again. You'd think, no way, at this point, but that boy just has a real hard time keeping his mouth shut. JMHO!

Good points, I think you're probably right, however if he were arrested now there might be a chance that someone in the circle rolls for fear that they would be implicated. Its a slight chance but you never know. I'm still amazed at how many people are involved in this cover-up.

[hotping]

You know we all talk about what we know and what we want, but there are two things I want to mention that we think of often but apparently do not take the time to get beyond the epidermis of our thinking process to the meaty tissue.

We all say what we want Mos to do.  How do we know what exactly Mos is doing?   I doubt he is going to tell us given the type of government he is operating with.  If he tells us, he only sets up a defense for Joran and Paulus.

we all say we want our government to do something.  How do we know what our government has/has not done behind the scenes.  Who knows if there are FBI agents on the ground in Aruba?  I certainly hope if they are there, the Arubans don't know it because they might drug them and send them out to sea.

We all say what we want JQK to do and that he has done nothing.  We have no idea what he knows or what goes on behind the scenes.  It is not JQKs job to tell us what he does for Beth and I think in some cases, he is tight lipped with Beth.  Remember the plane landing with Bubba on it and who was waiting for him?  Bo.  We had no clue but if we had, I doubt it would have worked out as it did.

Sometimes I think if we take a chill pill and start thinking about all this, maybe it will make us feel better because there is usually something going on behind the scenes that our government does not want us to know, that Beth and JQK don't want us to know because, well, let's face it --- we are all kind of talkers, otherwise, we would not be here and speculating so much.

Now go ahead and tar-and-feather me, but sometimes I think we expect too much and let's not forget, that when we had nothing, nothing, Beth and Jossy were willing to give us what they could and Dana was willing to go on air and take what he had to give us hope for Natalee.

Now, Dana is going to have Peter de Vries and Beth.  What a great day that will be, but we must not lose faith in all the people who are working to bring about justice and let's try not to speculate about the ones who have helped, turning them into enemies, because they probably have done much that we will never hear of.

I totally agree with You.....We the people are not suppose to know everything....so I'm just patiently waiting for the bombshell to hit....and I believe that will be soon...MOO 

[Tamikosmom]

Hi Monkeys!

Question: Other than we'd all like to see Joran's freedom removed immediately, what's the advantage to Joran being arrested right now, rather than being charged and going to trial?

He will remain silent in jail, I'd bet a lot on that. Don't flame me, but I'd rather any new questions be asked at trial than to give Tacky and company a heads up to prepare a spin. Did you see the spin he came up with after a few days thought on prior knowledge by ALE of the seizure as cause of death? He contends that he heard Jug speak of the questions re; seizures/epilepsy, and so when Joran was fabricating this fantasy to Patrick, he just ran with it. 

My "ideal" would be to charge Joran and immediately start the trial. There's enough to convict right now with the tape and overwhelming circumstantial evidence. The pattern of lies alone is daunting and purposeful. Right now, emotions on Aruba are higher than they will be as time passes, that's just human nature. I think it's possible that may have some influence, and I know that America is hot right now. Sadly, that too will cool if enough time goes by. A trial right now, IMO, is the absolute best bet.

There's a "slight" chance that left in the free world, Joran will do something stupid again. You'd think, no way, at this point, but that boy just has a real hard time keeping his mouth shut. JMHO!

cbb ... I disagree that there is a only a "slight" chance that other "Natalees" will be at risk.  In my opinion ... Joran van der Sloot is a ticking time bomb ready to explode.  After watching the Peter Devries' tape I conclude that Joran's capacity for wrongdoing is greater than it was three years ago when Natalee Holloway became his unsuspecting victim.  This guy possesses no self control.

To a great extend I blame the elders around him.  They are not protecting Joran ... they are destroying him for their own underlying motives.

Janet

++++++++

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-be-judge.html
YOU BE THE JUDGE!

[crazybabyborg]

Good point back atcha, Bladerunner. I have to say though, that if I were an accomplice to Joran, I'd feel far more comfortable of his shut mouth in jail rather than on his own where he comes into contact with others.........anybody! 

While I'm giving out my humble opinion, I'll also say this, because it has bothered me for days. Jossy Mansur has been a lone ranger in Aruba for a long time. He's struggled against the current at great risk and cost to himself, he's been nothing but faithful and helpful to Natalee's family, and has raised his voice when his countrymen vehemently demanded silence.

It bothers me to read anything that suggests negativity toward him. If he stopped today, and never again breathed a word about this case, I think that when an honest list of heroes was compiled in connection with Natalee's demise, Jossy's name would be among them. I have fought compulsion to defend him, but it's wrong not to stand up for someone who has stood up when it was easier to stay seated. Again, JMHO!

[Frank]

Tylergal,

I have to agree to disagree. Part of what Mos should be doing is managing the public relations, or at the very least create a feeling of open communication with Dave and Beth.

Or has been told she's "butting in." No doubt a leftover attitude from Janssen.

No more of this B.S. about "not understanding their system."

Paulus understands it. As far as I'm concerned until Mos starts paying the respect that Beth and Dave deserve he's just Shango in a suit. worthless.

[Rob]

Tylergal,

I have to agree to disagree. Part of what Mos should be doing is managing the public relations, or at the very least create a feeling of open communication with Dave and Beth.

Or has been told she's "butting in." No doubt a leftover attitude from Janssen.

No more of this B.S. about "not understanding their system."

Paulus understands it. As far as I'm concerned until Mos starts paying the respect that Beth and Dave deserve he's just Shango in a suit. worthless.

HERE HERE!!!

I learned that from the UK Mirror Board.

[crazybabyborg]

Hi Monkeys!

Question: Other than we'd all like to see Joran's freedom removed immediately, what's the advantage to Joran being arrested right now, rather than being charged and going to trial?

He will remain silent in jail, I'd bet a lot on that. Don't flame me, but I'd rather any new questions be asked at trial than to give Tacky and company a heads up to prepare a spin. Did you see the spin he came up with after a few days thought on prior knowledge by ALE of the seizure as cause of death? He contends that he heard Jug speak of the questions re; seizures/epilepsy, and so when Joran was fabricating this fantasy to Patrick, he just ran with it. 

My "ideal" would be to charge Joran and immediately start the trial. There's enough to convict right now with the tape and overwhelming circumstantial evidence. The pattern of lies alone is daunting and purposeful. Right now, emotions on Aruba are higher than they will be as time passes, that's just human nature. I think it's possible that may have some influence, and I know that America is hot right now. Sadly, that too will cool if enough time goes by. A trial right now, IMO, is the absolute best bet.

There's a "slight" chance that left in the free world, Joran will do something stupid again. You'd think, no way, at this point, but that boy just has a real hard time keeping his mouth shut. JMHO!

cbb ... I disagree that there is a only a "slight" chance that other "Natalees" will be at risk.  In my opinion ... Joran van der Sloot is a ticking time bomb ready to explode.  After watching the Peter Devries' tape I conclude that Joran's capacity for wrongdoing is greater than it was three years ago when Natalee Holloway became his unsuspecting victim.  This guy possesses no self control.

To a great extend I blame the elders around him.  They are not protecting Joran ... they are destroying him for their own underlying motives.

Janet

++++++++

http://nataleesfreebirds.blogspot.com/2008/01/you-be-judge.html
YOU BE THE JUDGE!

  I hadn't even thought about him victimizing someone else, Tamik, within a short timeframe until he could get to trial! I agree, if he goes permanently free, he WILL act again, I'm sure of it!

[Tylergal]

I've been following this case on Scared Monkeys site since day one.  I've always had a problem with Joran's statements and behavior.  I am a psychotherapist and he's always struck me as a strange bird.  It always seemed concerning that his extreme right for silence seemed an admission of involvement.  That also applies to his father. 

Now that we know a cell phone was given to Joran by his father in detention, I figure they were trying to keep their stories straight. 

I also have to say that there is a gut feeling that Natalee is not at sea.  But we shall see.  The ship is off the coast working hard.  They are "experts in finding a needle in the haystack" as they said on Greta. 

I'm certain that Natalee was drugged.  If she was tossed to sea or buried it wouldn't matter much for some drugs in her system.  I don't think Joran is concerned about his semen as much as the physical proof that she was drugged.  That would really not look good for him. 

Tho, I've not posted much, I've read the forums frequently and kept up with the news on this website since day one!! 

I'm worried that the Aruban government will not be able to convict Joran with the current evidence and if tried he may be released from all charges.  How awful it would be to try him too soon and not be able to get him due to double indemnity.  I think we all need to be patient making sure we have the evidence we need to lock Joran and any other parties away for a very long time. 

Slow and steady won the race.  I know this is a snails pace...but better to be save than sure.  One day, Natalee will have her justice!!

Great post and I agree with everything you said!

Me 2.  Great post.  Very analytical.  When you get a chance, give us your virtual evaluation of Joran.

[Bladerunner]

Good point back atcha, Bladerunner. I have to say though, that if I were an accomplice to Joran, I'd feel far more comfortable of his shut mouth in jail rather than on his own where he comes into contact with others.........anybody! 

While I'm giving out my humble opinion, I'll also say this, because it has bothered me for days. Jossy Mansur has been a lone ranger in Aruba for a long time. He's struggled against the current at great risk and cost to himself, he's been nothing but faithful and helpful to Natalee's family, and has raised his voice when his countrymen vehemently demanded silence.

It bothers me to read anything that suggests negativity toward him. If he stopped today, and never again breathed a word about this case, I think that when an honest list of heroes was compiled in connection with Natalee's demise, Jossy's name would be among them. I have fought compulsion to defend him, but it's wrong not to stand up for someone who has stood up when it was easier to stay seated. Again, JMHO!

This brings up an interesting issue, which is, will Joran himself roll. I could see a scenario where things are looking really bad for him and he tries to shift blame to others--like he already did with K2--thereby setting off a chain reaction of finger pointing by those involved as they realize he is going to name names. Again, this is why he has to stick by the beach story, since it doesn't implicate others (thinking Paulus here). However, when the rubber hits the road I don't think he has the balls to take the entire rap himself.

[Tylergal]

invisible again.
night all

No and you were obviously absent, very obviously so.  I was wondering about you.  Glad you showed up but wish you had not left before I got caught up. I am trying to watch election results and clean my kitchen, wash clothes and complain about the dogs and cats messing up the floor, which means I will have to mop! Grrr.

[Tamikosmom]

Tamikosmom:

GRETA VAN VAN SUSTEREN: What did you see?

JUNIOR: There were three who came before in a pickup truck. Then one was already there on the field. Then this other man and a woman along with two gentlemen in the back came. Yes, there was a woman--a woman who was brunette. There were two men in the back on the Jeep; also, there was a yellow car there.

VAN SUSTEREN: What time of day?

JUNIOR: This happened, well, at the time I saw them bury her it turns out that was the body of Natalee, the girl. At that time I thought it was just a tree--a coconut tree. That is what I thought. She was wrapped in plastic--covered in plastic--but there was a breeze and the bag sort of fell half way off and I saw half the body naked. It was a black plastic bag, and the woman was wearing no clothes. She had no clothes on. She was naked, just half her body I saw. I was by myself at that time at the place where we dump the garbage. How far? I was approximately seventy-five to eighty meters away. This was afternoon--4:30, 5:30--between 4:30 and 5:30. I, I felt there was something wrong, but more people kept coming from nearby. There was another car with a woman. The yellow car had a woman there, too, so, I thought there was nothing… Total, there were three cars; the pickup with the small trailer in the back, then there was a Jeep, and a yellow station wagon.

VAN SUSTEREN: When did he first call anybody about it?

JUNIOR: I called the Police, …that was… that happened on Monday or Sunday because at that time the picture of the guys they were looking for had not been published in the paper yet. That is right. And then I recognized them immediately when I saw the picture. I felt--one day later I called the Police. I was saying, you know, you just want to call, and call, and call, and call--day and night--I kept calling but I kept getting a tape.

VAN SUSTEREN: What is his level of certainty?

JUNIOR: Am I certain?  Yes, I am really sure.  That is why I think, today, “I’m sure, I’m sure. I have no doubt in my mind.” Yes. Also the father, I believe, yes, yes. Also him. I was even more sure it was this girl because now there were two cars. The Police have two cars--the red Jeep, which… I saw that. I saw that because the red Jeep was fine, but that came later, that was the next day. I was near the place where she was buried--may she rest in peace. I was there, maybe, nine days later.

VAN SUSTEREN: If there were three, does the father make four, or, is the father one of the three?

JUNIOR: The father came in the Jeep. He got out of the car. He was standing there and he was pointing and asking things. I was working, you know, but he was far and he was talking. I was just working and looking. He kept asking if everything was okay. Yes, they asked him. I thought that they were asking him, that is what I thought they were doing, asking him, “Where? Where?”

VAN SUSTEREN: Have the Police interviewed him [JUNIOR; my insertion] yet?

JUNIOR: The Police they have come to me and I pointed them to the place and they went for my message but never got it. They did not come back. This was in my mind and kept bothering me. I said this all to a friend of mine who lives nearby. I told her what happened and I said, "No one believes me."

VAN SUSTEREN: What, exactly, did he see of the body?

JUNIOR: Half body. I saw half the body and the hair flying in the wind--blowing in the wind. Then I was for sure because had it have been a coconut tree, then we would have seen the roots of it. You could see that, you know, it would move, but her hair was blowing. I saw half her body and it was naked. She was like this (demonstrating posture), with her legs like this.

http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=666.msg94871#msg94871

http://members.aol.com/WorldJOURNIER/NATALEE/NATALEEtimeline.html

 

This transcript will be saved in a special file all of it's own ... dedicated to *******.

Thank you!  Thank you!

 

Janet

++++++++

On the Record w/ Greta - August 4, 2005

[Rob]

let's not forget the porn Paulus gave him in the DVD player.

[Tylergal]

I've been following this case on Scared Monkeys site since day one.  I've always had a problem with Joran's statements and behavior.  I am a psychotherapist and he's always struck me as a strange bird.  It always seemed concerning that his extreme right for silence seemed an admission of involvement.  That also applies to his father. 

Now that we know a cell phone was given to Joran by his father in detention, I figure they were trying to keep their stories straight. 

I also have to say that there is a gut feeling that Natalee is not at sea.  But we shall see.  The ship is off the coast working hard.  They are "experts in finding a needle in the haystack" as they said on Greta. 

I'm certain that Natalee was drugged.  If she was tossed to sea or buried it wouldn't matter much for some drugs in her system.  I don't think Joran is concerned about his semen as much as the physical proof that she was drugged.  That would really not look good for him. 

Tho, I've not posted much, I've read the forums frequently and kept up with the news on this website since day one!! 

I'm worried that the Aruban government will not be able to convict Joran with the current evidence and if tried he may be released from all charges.  How awful it would be to try him too soon and not be able to get him due to double indemnity.  I think we all need to be patient making sure we have the evidence we need to lock Joran and any other parties away for a very long time. 

Slow and steady won the race.  I know this is a snails pace...but better to be save than sure.  One day, Natalee will have her justice!!

welcome!!! finally a shrink!!! lol
ok...this has always struck me about joran...his eyes. isn't it supposed to be when someone looks up and to the left or right...it is untruthful and when someone looks down they are just thinking? He always looked up and to the...hmmm...can't think if it was right ot left now...anyhoo...made me think he was lying out of his fanny!! In the car he is more normal...ahead or back and forth with his eyes. Any thoughts?

He licked his lips a lot. Not sure what that means.

Tasting lies.

[crazybabyborg]

I agree, Bladerunner...........If Joran actually believed that THIS time, he was going down, I think he'd drag others with him by trying to shift blame. I just think that's more likely in a trial than in jail, "on hold" and leisurely plotting a defense with Tacky.

[Tamikosmom]

 

Good Night Monkeys.

A very special good night to *******.

 

Janet
9:20 PM

[Bladerunner]

let's not forget the porn Paulus gave him in the DVD player.

What's that about?

[crazybabyborg]

Night Tamik! Sleep well!

[klaasend]

let's not forget the porn Paulus gave him in the DVD player.

What's that about?

In 2005 after Joran went to school in the NL, his father gave him for Christmas a DVD player so he could watch porn in class to pass the time.