Natalee Case Discussion #730 2/13 - 2/14/08

[Frank]

Nancy Grace has this story every night for one reason RATINGS

Her show tonight was very weak. (and for everyone who's so sensitive, that's a criticism of TODAY's SHOW) and not Nancy Grace.

These moments of air time are crucial to keeping the pressure on.

[Kiwi]

So how old was Valentijn when the phone was lost? But a bigger question is did ALE account for that phone in the beginning of the investigation or are they learning about it now and how many more phones do they have?

I think Val was 15 in 2005.  The phone was found, according to Amigoe in 2006.

So losing a phone months after, is just a distraction. Kind of like the photos of Joran and the half dozen pairs of tennis shoes. Unless records indicated it was used near the time of Joran's clean-up crew. Consider the source of the first reports of this phone. It is not meant for us here on SM, but for the average person just checking into the case. Some kind of PR advantage or just simply to side tract the investigation. Must be getting close somewhere else then.

[ala_gunslinger]

Another thing - I don't think Valentijn is involved because I believe he was in Holland with Anita and not on Aruba. So his phone could have been used by Paulus.

It's also interesting that in Paulus' or Joran's PV he has to go home because Sebastian will be returning from a friend's house. I see no mention of Valentijn in the PVs. He's not even an after thought and no one brings up his name.

Now I doubt either child is on Aruba, but do not know for sure. I would love to hear someone clear that up. It should be pretty easy to ask Beth or Jug if they saw either of those two kids before Anita came back on Wed.

If Anita is leaving all three kids with Paulus, well, she deserves what she got.

It was in Paul's PV he said he had to leave the tournament to go home because sebastian was going to be dropped off by a friend at 18:30. PVDS says he was playing in a carribean stud tourney and Joran says Texas No Hold Em. Joran clearly did not win any money in this tournament,but PVDS claims he went to the bank the next day to deposit his winnings. Joran also gives a much later time that he was in a tournament (Maybee 21:00)but they both appear to be playing black jack with Natalee at 20:14 and 20:25.

Timestamp at 20:14


Natalee walking in to Excelsior 20:58


Joran walking into Excelsior 19:51


Casino screen shots
http://scaredmonkeys.net/index.php?topic=2577.0

Ya'll, I appoligize in advance for quoting this post, but Obs just left it hanging out here.

Why does it look like this was shopped????  Why is that obstruction hanging right in front of pvds????

[Blue Moon]

Remember Sander lost his phone.  Amazing, two cell phones lost about the same time.
 
 

indeed. i am a mother of teenagers myself. if there is one thing they would almost protect with their life, its their cellphone. not only a way to contact their friends, but also a status symbol.

I second that---my son goes NOWHERE without his cell phone.  Guards it better than his vehicle.  (Thanks for your contributions to this site and for Natalee).

[nimrod]

So how old was Valentijn when the phone was lost? But a bigger question is did ALE account for that phone in the beginning of the investigation or are they learning about it now and many more phones to they have?

IIRC, In one of Paulas or Joran's statements it was said that Paulas was using Anita's cell phone that night/morning. All these missing phones could lead to the solution of the crime?

[private eye]

He may walk.....but he will NEVER BE FREE!!  

And he will always have to look over his shoulder, because ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,and be sure to smile Candid Camera,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,may your paranoia drive you crazy Joran

[Observer]

Ya'll, I appoligize in advance for quoting this post, but Obs just left it hanging out here.

Why does it look like this was shopped????  Why is that obstruction hanging right in front of pvds????

Because it was,the tapes are clearly tampered with as well as a direct attempt to conceal the identity of the man talking to Natalee.

[JE]

Last thought for today this has bugged me for a while so here it goes.
At the time this all happens Joran is 17 not really an accomplished and hardened criminal (yet).
I cant see the need for him mastermind this whole thing if it was just an accident
Daddy P a legal man. Why would a legal professional who knows what the charges for crimes are, go through such lengths to protect his son from the law. Joran is a minor at that moment. Whatever he did that night would lead to "relatively" minor charges under aruban or dutch law. That is if his involvement could at all be proved.
But maybe it was not justice that Paulus feared.
I m going out on a limb here so shoot as many holes in this theory as you want.
It has been said that there are after hour parties/orgies organised on that island by the "powerful" people
It has been suggested that Joran and maybe his daddy had high credit at the casinos.
Could it be that they owed some serious money to people that do not fool around. Could it be that the pickup of Natalee Holloway at C&C was ordered by some of the "powerful" people as a way to even a score?
Let s assume this happened and the only way for Joran to get her to go with him to wherever he had agreed to take her was to slip her drugs. It could then well have happened that the dose she got was too much for her.
They (Joran and Kalpoes) take the girl to the designated place and she gets a seizure. The powerful people freak out and tell the trio you got us into this mess you better clean this up.
Joran and Kalpoes panic and call daddy. Daddy realizes that this is bigger than dealing with justice and because he fears for his life and that of his son proceeds with the disposal of the body.

I know it is farfetched but just a thought

[Observer]

So how old was Valentijn when the phone was lost? But a bigger question is did ALE account for that phone in the beginning of the investigation or are they learning about it now and many more phones to they have?

IIRC, In one of Paulas or Joran's statements it was said that Paulas was using Anita's cell phone that night/morning. All these missing phones could lead to the solution of the crime?

Val was about 15 and sebastian about 10 years old. In the PV I believe Paul says he called Joran on Anita's cell phone when Natalee's family arrived at the VDS house before the wild goose chase.

[klaasend]

On Nancy Grace  - posted by Heli at RU:

Linda:

I'm so glad I was able to see things on the internet and get ready for the actual showing of those secret tapes, it was so appalling, the range of emotions from anger to just being very upset and very hard to watch that, him calling her those names, his total lack of humanity to get help for her. He just wanted to get rid of her body.

Just to hear his callous nature, no regrets or no remorse.

[dennisintn]

paulus' excuse for leaving the tournament and jvds taking his place was that he had to go home to fix dinner for the younger boys.  i don't remember the time he says he left.
dennisintn

[ala_gunslinger]

Ya'll, I appoligize in advance for quoting this post, but Obs just left it hanging out here.

Why does it look like this was shopped????  Why is that obstruction hanging right in front of pvds????

Because it was,the tapes are clearly tampered with as well as a direct attempt to conceal the identity of the man talking to Natalee.

Ahhh, I think we have a face in that last one.  I guarantee that has been shopped!!!!

[klaasend]

Last thought for today this has bugged me for a while so here it goes.
At the time this all happens Joran is 17 not really an accomplished and hardened criminal (yet).
I cant see the need for him mastermind this whole thing if it was just an accident
Daddy P a legal man. Why would a legal professional who knows what the charges for crimes are, go through such lengths to protect his son from the law. Joran is a minor at that moment. Whatever he did that night would lead to "relatively" minor charges under aruban or dutch law. That is if his involvement could at all be proved.
But maybe it was not justice that Paulus feared.
I m going out on a limb here so shoot as many holes in this theory as you want.
It has been said that there are after hour parties/orgies organised on that island by the "powerful" people
It has been suggested that Joran and maybe his daddy had high credit at the casinos.
Could it be that they owed some serious money to people that do not fool around. Could it be that the pickup of Natalee Holloway at C&C was ordered by some of the "powerful" people as a way to even a score?
Let s assume this happened and the only way for Joran to get her to go with him to wherever he had agreed to take her was to slip her drugs. It could then well have happened that the dose she got was too much for her.
They (Joran and Kalpoes) take the girl to the designated place and she gets a seizure. The powerful people freak out and tell the trio you got us into this mess you better clean this up.
Joran and Kalpoes panic and call daddy. Daddy realizes that this is bigger than dealing with justice and because he fears for his life and that of his son proceeds with the disposal of the body.

I know it is farfetched but just a thought

We've often discussed that possibility.  IMO it could go either way.  Don't forget, Joran had anger problems and his HOBBY was criminal law.

[Nut44x4]

For whatever it is worth.......
Posted by iquitos @ RU a few minutes ago.....

De verhoren gingen over een mobiele telefoon die de leraar in 2006 heeft gevonden in het duingebied achter de vuurtoren bij de Westpunt en die toe zou behoren aan Paul van der Sloot.

the questioning was about a mobiele telefoon that the teacher found in 2006 in the dune area behind the lighthouse at westpunt which supposedly belonged to Paul van der Sloot.


the teacher was questioned by the cops. anita said the phone belonged to valentijn. we don't know if the cops questioned her or if amigoe did. probably the latter. i guess they can check phone records if they can find the phone number.
~~~~~~~~

[Tamikosmom]

Another thing - I don't think Valentijn is involved because I believe he was in Holland with Anita and not on Aruba. So his phone could have been used by Paulus.

It's also interesting that in Paulus' or Joran's PV he has to go home because Sebastian will be returning from a friend's house. I see no mention of Valentijn in the PVs. He's not even an after thought and no one brings up his name.

Now I doubt either child is on Aruba, but do not know for sure. I would love to hear someone clear that up. It should be pretty easy to ask Beth or Jug if they saw either of those two kids before Anita came back on Wed.

If Anita is leaving all three kids with Paulus, well, she deserves what she got.

I thought paulus said Val was at home or was it just the younger one?

VALENTIJN AND SEBASTIAN VAN DER SLOOT

Paulus Van der Sloot
Witness Statement
June 18, 2005

On May 29th 2005, at approximately 16.00 hours, I went with Joran to the “Free Carribean Stud Tournament” in the Holiday Inn. During the break, at approximately 18.30 hours, I went back home.  My youngest son Sebastian who was playing at a friends house was due to be dropped off at home around that time. Joran, with my permission, took over my seat because he had been eliminated earlier.


Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

I woke up Valentijn and Sebastian and I also said to Joran that he
had to go to school even though he wasn't in the mood to go.


Paulus Van der Sloot
Witness Statement
June 18, 2005

On May 30th in the hours of the morning, I did not notice anything different/out of the ordinary with Joran. According to me he got onto the bus of the I.S.A. with his brothers Sebastian and Valentijn just like he always does. I am not absolutely sure about that because I didn't notice it and because Joran didn't have to be at school every day during that period. He was busy with his final exams and sometimes he stayed home.


Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

To your question whether Sebastian and Valentijn went to school that Monday, I can state the following. Yes, they got onto the bus and went to school because in the period that Anita was away they
took the bus every day.


Paulus van der Sloot
Witness Statement
June 18, 2005

At some point during the night I was awoken by the barking of the dogs. My son Valentijn came to me and asked me what was happening. There were a lot of people at the door and there was also a police-patrol.


Paulus van der Sloot
Suspect Statement
June 23, 2005

To your question how it then is possible that I had not seen Joran
get onto the bus, I can state the following. Of course I see the children get onto the bus and that also is true for Joran. But unlike Valentijn and Sebastian who went with the bus everyday Joran didn't go with the bus once or twice during that period.

[Ono]

Blah look at the bottom picture.  to the left of the red circle.  I see 4 fingers and a thumb very clearly.  Don't you??

 

Okay, I have wondered this for many months here and please pardon this silly question....but if this was really a body in that bag, wouldn't the photographer just get totally freaked out and do something.......like, er, drop the camera and run like hell?  I mean, this makes the photographer as culpable as the criminals by not reporting this [ I know it's Aruba, but still, just standing there or looking there from a distance and filming, is ABNORMAL ], if it is truly a corpse.  Could this be just another red herring?  They have thrown us so many red herrings from the getgo.  Just a querie here.

[klaasend]

For whatever it is worth.......
Posted by iquitos @ RU a few minutes ago.....

De verhoren gingen over een mobiele telefoon die de leraar in 2006 heeft gevonden in het duingebied achter de vuurtoren bij de Westpunt en die toe zou behoren aan Paul van der Sloot.

the questioning was about a mobiele telefoon that the teacher found in 2006 in the dune area behind the lighthouse at westpunt which supposedly belonged to Paul van der Sloot.


the teacher was questioned by the cops. anita said the phone belonged to valentijn. we don't know if the cops questioned her or if amigoe did. probably the latter. i guess they can check phone records if they can find the phone number.
~~~~~~~~

[Dana]

I wanted to mention to everyone if they are inetersted to call in and voice your opinion tonight. I will take calls after the guest segments.
I dont normally take calls but if there is interest tonight I will.

Dana

306-842-7884 will be the call in number

[JE]

Last thought for today this has bugged me for a while so here it goes.
At the time this all happens Joran is 17 not really an accomplished and hardened criminal (yet).
I cant see the need for him mastermind this whole thing if it was just an accident
Daddy P a legal man. Why would a legal professional who knows what the charges for crimes are, go through such lengths to protect his son from the law. Joran is a minor at that moment. Whatever he did that night would lead to "relatively" minor charges under aruban or dutch law. That is if his involvement could at all be proved.
But maybe it was not justice that Paulus feared.
I m going out on a limb here so shoot as many holes in this theory as you want.
It has been said that there are after hour parties/orgies organised on that island by the "powerful" people
It has been suggested that Joran and maybe his daddy had high credit at the casinos.
Could it be that they owed some serious money to people that do not fool around. Could it be that the pickup of Natalee Holloway at C&C was ordered by some of the "powerful" people as a way to even a score?
Let s assume this happened and the only way for Joran to get her to go with him to wherever he had agreed to take her was to slip her drugs. It could then well have happened that the dose she got was too much for her.
They (Joran and Kalpoes) take the girl to the designated place and she gets a seizure. The powerful people freak out and tell the trio you got us into this mess you better clean this up.
Joran and Kalpoes panic and call daddy. Daddy realizes that this is bigger than dealing with justice and because he fears for his life and that of his son proceeds with the disposal of the body.

I know it is farfetched but just a thought

We've often discussed that possibility.  IMO it could go either way.  Don't forget, Joran had anger problems and his HOBBY was criminal law.

Thanks for the reply Klaas I have a lot of reading to do still there's just too much

[MumInOhio]

So how old was Valentijn when the phone was lost? But a bigger question is did ALE account for that phone in the beginning of the investigation or are they learning about it now and many more phones to they have?

IIRC, In one of Paulas or Joran's statements it was said that Paulas was using Anita's cell phone that night/morning. All these missing phones could lead to the solution of the crime?

There are a lot of questions in the PVs about cell phones. Joran reportedly broke the chip in Val's and that was one reason he was to see a shrink...

Val...December birthday born where ...Anita...was he born in 1990...the year you just stated you moved to Aruba...I wonder???? I'm not ready to let Val off the hook...just yet anyway...