Natalee Case Discussion #731 2/14 /08 - 2/15/08

[ala_gunslinger]

OT,  but just on Fox.  The guy who shot up NIU yesterday, purchased gun accessories from the same website as VTech killer!   Why in God's name would we be allowed to sell this stuff on the internet?   They can't do background checks. 

Because gun 'accessories' don't kill people.

VERY true,  but what's the point of buying accessories, if you don't have a gun?  It's like buying a car battey, when you don't have a car...

I use car batteries for my uninterruptable power supply.  I use gun 'accessories' for my guns.  There is nothing wrong with either application.

[klaasend]

This Is Exactly What JQK Did to OJ

klaasend writes: Beth Twitty, Natalees mother, is preparing a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot.

The standards of guilt in civil proceeding are far less arduous than in criminal.

JQK won the guilty civil verdict for the Brown family after his criminal acquittal, and OJ has been a pariah and broke ever since.

The discovery in this proceeding will be revealing, and all the names you know: van der Stratten, Jaansen, van der sloot (pa and ma), Freddie, Kalpoe, Carasquilla and bundles more will be deposed.  Check out JQK's NY filing -- every one of the points he makes in this devastating document has substantiation -- and add to that the filmed confession of jvds, as well as his inhuman imitation of a suffering and dying Natalee --

-- and the sloots can kiss their bank accounts, assets and property holdings good-bye.

.

Is there a link to that filing?

No actual link to a filing, only a Dutch report a couple of pages back.

[caesu]

I disagree, if Joran and paulus go down, nobody else has to go down. They are not going to be able to blackmail anyone, but stick to their own defense. What are they going to do tell the judge about Rudy Croe's dirt as a defense?

But if van der straaten, Jacobs and Janssen start to get scared the van der sloots will go down.

Well then why does Rudy who is the minister of justice and obviously has no use for Joran allow this to happen?

this might be confusing stuff. but i checked it as good as i can.
i am just writing this down for myself for future reference and background information.

in my opinion a lot of people in and around the justice department have got all kinds of stuff on Rudy Croes.
so Rudy Croes has to protect those people.

like i said before here. i have a high suspicion of old cows back from the IRT-affair still in the ditch.
this was a scandal which shook the nation.
this has to be re-investigated in my opinion.
i did notify a MP about this and got a nice response.
the head of the parlement-enquiry (Van Traa) died under suspicious circumstances it was reported.
but days later is was reported that he just died in a car accident on a lane on the highway near Amsterdam.

but like i said before, both Rudy Croes and the Hirsch Ballin lost their jobs as justice minister around 1994.
and now they are both in the same position again.
also they are taking weekly hits at eachother, at least that's how i read it.

yesterday Ballin said two police corps made an error by not letting Aruba OM (headed by Croes) know that Patrick came forward to offer his help with the infiltration.
the IRT-affair was about infiltrations in the drugs trade - but police got rich of it.
so they set very strict rules for further infiltrations for the Dutch justice department.
but no stricter rules were set for the Aruban justice department.
Wet bijzondere opsporingsbevoegdheden (BOB) went into force in 2000.

yesterday i thought this was after 9/11 but now i see it was already in 2000.
it's all about wiretapping and infiltrations (by civilians!).
BOB doesn't apply to Aruba. Aruba can't use civilian infiltrators - so the comment by Ballin doesn't make sense.
the only reason why he has said that is to embarras Croes why he never put BOB up for vote in parliament.
http://www.elsevier.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/asp/artnr/191486/more/true/index.html

in 2004 the previous dutch justice minister Donner wanted one OM for Aruba and the Antilles.
just like there is one Higher Court for Aruba and The Antilles in Willemstad, Curaçao.
Rudy Croes didn't want this, because he wanted to run his own OM.
a justice minister is head of the OM but doesn't normally interfere with cases.
Croes gets pissed of if the OM doesn't notify him in advance when jvds is about to be arrested.
Aruba has status aparte in the Kingdom. there own institution but a shared Higher Court with The Antilles.
the appeal went yesterday went wrong at the Higher Court.

there is also some racial tension between Aruba en Curaçao because on Aruba most people are more white, and on Curaçao more black - this is because Aruba didn't have plantations with slaves.
that also maybe a reason why Croes doesn't want the OM to run from Curaçao.
with the Most Wanted program in 2006, Joran was portrayed as a darker skinned boy.
the Antilles minister-at large in The Hague got angry because of that.
then the Aruban OM reacted by saying: over here that color we call white.

another thing is that Ballin want to pass a law to send Aruban / Antillian ex-criminals back to Aruba / The Antilles.
Croes reacted to this by naming Joran 'persona non grata'.
but i think i have read now maybe due to Balkenende's visit this law won't be presented to parliament anymore.
so they gave in to Croes. don't know what Croes had to give in return.

i just put it out here. maybe things will make sense one day.
if there are questions i can look it up.

i keep following those two justice ministers closely.
also because of Peter R. Vries civilian infiltration and BOB, which Aruba doesn't have it is interesting.

another thing the media is totally missing:
remember last friday harm brouwers the highest official in the dutch OM said.
"Criticizing Peter R. de Vries is hypocritical"
http://www.elsevier.nl/nieuws/nederland/artikel/asp/artnr/191869/index.html

this and Ballin hitting at Croes and back makes me believe the Dutch gov and OM is about get though on Aruba.

my source is mainly Elsevier weekly.
i've got a subscription.
http://www.elsevier.nl

together with De Telegraaf they seem to be getting suspicious.
De Telegraaf is bit of a tabloid.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/
but Elsevier is a weekly regarded right of the political spectrum.
but for as long as i read it it is critical of the weak Balkenende governments.
i hope they continue to follow this case and be critical.

[Dihannah1]

OT,  but just on Fox.  The guy who shot up NIU yesterday, purchased gun accessories from the same website as VTech killer!   Why in God's name would we be allowed to sell this stuff on the internet?   They can't do background checks. 

Because gun 'accessories' don't kill people.

VERY true,  but what's the point of buying accessories, if you don't have a gun?  It's like buying a car battey, when you don't have a car...

I use car batteries for my uninterruptable power supply.  I use gun 'accessories' for my guns.  There is nothing wrong with either application.

Sorry, bad analogy,  just came to me real quickly.   DON"T get me wrong!  My husband is an AVID hunter!  And that's an understatement, so I in now way implying people shouldn't own guns.  We have plenty of shotguns locked up in a gun cabinet here.  It's just a shame that that guns and accessories can get into the wrong hands.   But I suppose that could be said for any type of legal weapon.  It's just a sad story and sadly ironic that it came from the same person.  Forgive my incorrect implications.

[the big hammer]

Klaas --

Do you have link to JQK's NY filing -- when jvds was slapped with papers by Bo Dietl?

I think that's the one referred to.

Thanks!

.

[klaasend]

Friday, Feb 15, 2008 - 04:59 PM

The Dutch college student suspected in Natalee Holloway's disappearance won't be rearrested.

An appeals court made that decision Thursday.

That's despite a secretly taped conversation of Joran van der Sloot explaining that he was with Natalee when she died.

For Natalee Holloway's parents, the Aruban appellate decision is another disappointment.

But as they explained to NBC13, there are still other options to getting justice for their daughter.

"I think what I do take comfort in, his life is a living hell," said Natalee’s mother, Beth Holloway.

And while that brings Beth Holloway comfort, she told us earlier this week that what she fears is what Joran van der Sloot could do in the future.

"I think he is a time bomb and he will strike again," Beth Holloway said.

But now another court said no to rearresting him, despite a secretly taped conversation where he admitted he was with Natalee when she died, then dumped her body.

Natalee's father, Dave Holloway, called this another disappointment — but he's not surprised.

"I've always said this: If justice is going to served, it's going to be when we find Natalee," Dave Holloway said.

Dave hopes “the persistence,” heading back out to Aruba next week, will do just that — find Natalee.

He says next week, the ship along with Texas Equusearch will take a look at the 100 non-ocean objects found on the ocean floor.

As for Beth, her hope is in the Aruban justice department, which she believes will eventually charge and try van der Sloot for Natalee's murder.

But at least now she knows what happened to her daughter.

"Even though the knowing is difficult, I do find peace and comfort in at least finally seeing the light. The light meaning can see the puzzle pieces in knowing what was happening to Natalee. Even though it's difficult as it is — parents especially — they just want to know what happened."

The Aruban appellate court said the secret videotape conflicted with other van der Sloot statements.

The prosecutor said some things on the tape can be verified, but investigators can't prove what happened on the beach.

The prosecutor said the case remains open.

http://www.nbc13.com/gulfcoastwest/vtm/news.apx.-content-articles-VTM-2008-02-15-0020.html

[nonesuche]

This Is Exactly What JQK Did to OJ

klaasend writes: Beth Twitty, Natalees mother, is preparing a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot.

The standards of guilt in civil proceeding are far less arduous than in criminal.

JQK won the guilty civil verdict for the Brown family after his criminal acquittal, and OJ has been a pariah and broke ever since.

The discovery in this proceeding will be revealing, and all the names you know: van der Stratten, Jaansen, van der sloot (pa and ma), Freddie, Kalpoe, Carasquilla and bundles more will be deposed.  Check out JQK's NY filing -- every one of the points he makes in this devastating document has substantiation -- and add to that the filmed confession of jvds, as well as his inhuman imitation of a suffering and dying Natalee --

-- and the sloots can kiss their bank accounts, assets and property holdings good-bye.

.

Is there a link to that filing?

No actual link to a filing, only a Dutch report a couple of pages back.

I have every confidence John Kelly can make this stick, if only the Dutch courts give it a fair shake, which will remain to be seen. Can any of our dutch posters speak to that? What is the level of equity in your civil courts, do you feel there is parity for victims?

Hopefully some of our smart monkeys can research this but that civil case has been long overdue. The VDS family has brought this down on themselves.

Evil people, evil evil people to lie as those two parents have for that horror of a man-child-sociopath.

[klaasend]

Klaas --

Do you have link to JQK's NY filing -- when jvds was slapped with papers by Bo Dietl?

I think that's the one referred to.

Thanks!

.

Not sure if we have the NY Filing link.  That's NOT what they ar referring to now though, this referenced a Dutch attorney.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3311688/_Joran_geplukt_door_Beth__.html

Through translator:

Joran picked by Beth
Beth Twitty, Natalees mother, is preparing a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot.
   
Mother Beth had a lot to with Nathalee

She has previously lawyer Bram Moszkowicz approached. Moszkowicz examine whether Joran van der Sloot has been guilty of 'tort', on the basis of which he financially can be addressed, so that the lawyer said Friday in NOVA.

Her decision follows the decision of the Court on Curaçao that Joran van der Sloot will not be re-arrested in the Holloway case. According to the court, the programme of Peter R. De Vries not enough significant new evidence. The Public Prosecutor and the Court will not rule out that Joran has a severe personality disorder, which makes him less credible. The OM goes by investigating his role in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Now a successful criminal therefore uncertain if Natalees mother, a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot start. When it comes to a procedure will be conducted in the Netherlands. Moszkowicz notes two facts as tort: the shock that Beth Twitty is being taken because they had knowledge of Jorans confessions in the program by Peter R. De Vries, and the concealment of the facts by Joran van der Sloot.

According to crime reporter Peter R. De Vries makes it an important opportunity.

The civil proceeding is separate from the criminal prosecution by the public prosecutor in Aruba. The probability that Joran criminal will be convicted eight Moszkowicz small. He considers the decision to non-detention by the court of the Dutch Antilles as a clue: "I think the criminal case at the end of runs. I say that I do not understand, or that I agree with it."

[Magnolia]

Is Joran still in Holland or has he fled secretly to another country?

[nonesuche]

Yes the case does remain open Aruba - it does - small comfort knowing you are in control for essentially that means incompetence and deceit and a total lack of ethics.

It also means JORAN IS STUCK TO YOU and only those living under a rock in the modern world aren't aware of it.

It means his filth sticks to you Aruba...

It means his crimes become your crimes until you deliver justice...

It means continued losses to your economy that will hurt you where you care the most, in your greedy pockets ...

It means you deserve Joran until you deliver justice for his victim Natalee Holloway.


Her life meant so much - just as so many tried to tell you long before now - Joran's life is a train wreck and you allowed it to snuff out a life of great value.

Yes the case is still open........as if that resolves your obligations and responsibilities?

NEVER

[ShinkinMonk]

 
Is it me, or does anyone else find similarities between Urine Van of Poop's case to the O. J. Spermsucker case????

[Buckeye]

i understand the reactions of americans.
their outrage and disbelief. we feel the same way.
and we agree that a lot of things went wrong and that the ones who did wrong, wether its the vandersloots or the justice department, in aruba or holland, should be trialed in court for their doings.
but, saying that, i also must say we felt the same when the american justice let o j simpson walk.
i mean, its all awfull and herendous and it is a good thing if the people take action and protest to things going wrong.
but lets not be hypocrits.

Those are good points. What gets me is that the Dutch laws do not seem to support the pursuit of justice. For example:

14. Hours of investigation limited. No investigation b/w 22:00 and 08:00

This is from this page: http://www.aruba.com/about/judicialsystem.php

What exactly does this mean, that you can't pursue your investigative duties of a crime after 10pm. at night?

However ... Karin Janssen made an exception in the case of the security guards.

Janet



Associated Press
June 7, 2005

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,158666,00.html

Aruban police in unmarked cars accompanied by FBI agents made a pre-dawn raid at 5 a.m. Sunday, rousting two suspects aged 28 and 30 from their beds.

An AP photographer watched as the rumpled men — one from the De Vuiyst housing project for poorer islanders and another from an average home in southeast San Nicolas — emerged without resistance, hands cuffed behind their backs.

Police searched the homes and emerged with what looked like a metal safe deposit box and a garbage bag of clothing.

Janet

This FBI gave very few statements.  But they did state they were not involved in this raid (I believe at the same time they stated they didn't get in the water).

[klaasend]

Posted at RU by Glenda - no link of course:

Court of Appeal upholds lower judge’s decision not to detain J.v.d.S.

J.v.d.S remains prime suspect
Judicial investigation continues

The Court of Appeal announced by the end of yesterday, February 14th, 2008, its decision to uphold the refusal by the investigating judge to order pre-trial detention of J.v.d.S. in the case of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. The Office of the Public Prosecutor had requested such an order after the “Peter R de Vries-tapes” had been received by the Office and had been evaluated. Last week the Office appealed the ruling of refusal by the judge.

The reasons underlying the Court’s decision are the following. The Court has seen the visual materials, has listened to the audio materials and has inspected the verbatim reports. Based on that, the Court is of the opinion that there is a lack of sufficient facts and circumstances substantiating serious grounds for the suspicion of the suspect’s involvement in the crimes for which he is being held responsible by the prosecution. The Court will generally be a bit more hesitant when it has to decide on a new request for pre-trial detention of a suspect, when that same suspect has been detained repeatedly before and there has been a considerable lapse of time.

J.v.d.S. has given extensive and detailed statements in Patrick van der Eem’s car, the undercover citizen who worked for Peter R. de Vries, on what happened during the night of the disappearance of Natalee Holloway. Nevertheless the Court sees various reasons not to accept the serious grounds of suspicion which are statutorily required for pre-trial detention. One of them is the history of contradictory statements by J.v.d.S., which were belied repeatedly by objective findings.

At this moment those parts of the statements made in Van der Eem’s car which contain new elements are not being underpinned by objective findings. Considering the possibility of a serious personality disorder – as voiced by the prosecution – combined with a personal history of untrue statements and remarks, which even according to the suspect himself are frequently false, the Court of Appeal has reasons for doubt regarding the incriminating character of the “car-statements.”

On the pre-trial detention issue the Code of criminal procedure does not provide for further appeals. The effect of the Court decision is that J.v.d.S. cannot be (re)arrested. The investigation of the Natalee Holloway case continues. J.v.d.S. is again the prime suspect.

At the end of the investigation the Office of the Public Prosecution will decide whether to charge or not

[ala_gunslinger]

OT,  but just on Fox.  The guy who shot up NIU yesterday, purchased gun accessories from the same website as VTech killer!   Why in God's name would we be allowed to sell this stuff on the internet?   They can't do background checks. 

Because gun 'accessories' don't kill people.

VERY true,  but what's the point of buying accessories, if you don't have a gun?  It's like buying a car battey, when you don't have a car...

I use car batteries for my uninterruptable power supply.  I use gun 'accessories' for my guns.  There is nothing wrong with either application.

Sorry, bad analogy,  just came to me real quickly.   DON"T get me wrong!  My husband is an AVID hunter!  And that's an understatement, so I in now way implying people shouldn't own guns.  We have plenty of shotguns locked up in a gun cabinet here.  It's just a shame that that guns and accessories can get into the wrong hands.   But I suppose that could be said for any type of legal weapon.  It's just a sad story and sadly ironic that it came from the same person.  Forgive my incorrect implications.

Not a problem my sister for justice.  It is always better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. 

Just think, if a student or faculty member in that room with a license to carry had been allowed to exercise their 2nd amendment rights, how low the death toll would have been?

I don't carry for self protection, I carry for your protection.

[imnoangel]

i m back again, have been watching de vries on pauw and witteman.

Dihannah1, it would have been better if Mos would have more time to investigate the tapes, Moss has asked for more time, but de vries had to schedule the broadcast with the net.
thats the reason why Mos had them only 2 weeks before the broadcast.

Beth is likely to succeed in a civil suit against joran.

and i doubt very much if the sloot family can claim any money from the government because joran lied and lied and lied.
thats the first thing people laughingly said after seeing the tapes: ha, joran, you can kiss hat money goodbye!

[ala_gunslinger]

Sorry all ya'll.  I didn't intend to scare everyone off.

[imnoangel]

Beth is in good hands with Moscowitz, although his father was the best, but he is not practising law anymore, he is retired.
Bram Moscowitz is a flamboyant figure, drives in real expensive cars and wears handmade suits. i expect a lot of it.

[klaasend]

TONIGHT!

[caesu]

Klaas --

Do you have link to JQK's NY filing -- when jvds was slapped with papers by Bo Dietl?

I think that's the one referred to.

Thanks!

.

Not sure if we have the NY Filing link.  That's NOT what they ar referring to now though, this referenced a Dutch attorney.

http://www.telegraaf.nl/binnenland/3311688/_Joran_geplukt_door_Beth__.html

Through translator:

Joran picked by Beth
Beth Twitty, Natalees mother, is preparing a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot.
   
Mother Beth had a lot to with Nathalee

She has previously lawyer Bram Moszkowicz approached. Moszkowicz examine whether Joran van der Sloot has been guilty of 'tort', on the basis of which he financially can be addressed, so that the lawyer said Friday in NOVA.

Her decision follows the decision of the Court on Curaçao that Joran van der Sloot will not be re-arrested in the Holloway case. According to the court, the programme of Peter R. De Vries not enough significant new evidence. The Public Prosecutor and the Court will not rule out that Joran has a severe personality disorder, which makes him less credible. The OM goes by investigating his role in the disappearance of Natalee Holloway.

Now a successful criminal therefore uncertain if Natalees mother, a civil lawsuit against Joran van der Sloot start. When it comes to a procedure will be conducted in the Netherlands. Moszkowicz notes two facts as tort: the shock that Beth Twitty is being taken because they had knowledge of Jorans confessions in the program by Peter R. De Vries, and the concealment of the facts by Joran van der Sloot.

According to crime reporter Peter R. De Vries makes it an important opportunity.

The civil proceeding is separate from the criminal prosecution by the public prosecutor in Aruba. The probability that Joran criminal will be convicted eight Moszkowicz small. He considers the decision to non-detention by the court of the Dutch Antilles as a clue: "I think the criminal case at the end of runs. I say that I do not understand, or that I agree with it."

Bram Moszkowicz

most well known Dutch lawyer imo.

but last year he made a huge blunder by defending Willem Holleeder (biggest gangster after Klaas Bruinsma) and it came out from the Endstra-tapes that Willem Holleeder blackmailed Willem Endstra. Moszkowicz was also lawyer of Endstra.
But Endstra got assassinated. Conflicting interest. So he had to pass on the case to another lawyer.
Holleeder got convicted of 9 years in prison for money laundering.
just last week he got arrested in prison for assassinations in the last few years.
the Endstra-tapes ware a sting operation in Endstra-car this time not by a civilian but by the police.

so maybe Moszkowicz wants to save his reputation and go all the way for Beth!!!!!!!!! 

there are hundreds of connections.
if you read all about it you know everything about the Amsterdam/Dutch-maffia.
of course Peter R. de Vries is also covering Willem Holleeder.
the last few years there have been many assassination in that maffia.
for a period almost weekly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bram_Moszkowicz < wiki got just made not enough info
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Holleeder
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Willem_Endstra

Moszkowicz is a lawyer family.
Max is the father and David Moszkowicz, Max Moszkowicz jr., Robert Moszkowicz en Bram Moszkowicz are all lawyers.

[ala_gunslinger]

i m back again, have been watching de vries on pauw and witteman.

Dihannah1, it would have been better if Mos would have more time to investigate the tapes, Moss has asked for more time, but de vries had to schedule the broadcast with the net.
thats the reason why Mos had them only 2 weeks before the broadcast.

Beth is likely to succeed in a civil suit against joran.

and i doubt very much if the sloot family can claim any money from the government because joran lied and lied and lied.
thats the first thing people laughingly said after seeing the tapes: ha, joran, you can kiss hat money goodbye!

Hello, thank you again for your reply.

In other words joran...

Your big fat 0.