Natalee Case Discussion #734 2/21 - 2/24/08

[private eye]

Beth took the false finding of the crab cage with the bone really hard. When she thought she had actually found Natalee's remains her strength vanished and she fell apart for a day or so.

People think they are ready for the end of life for a loved one, even if the person has been in a coma for 10 or more years, yet when that day actually comes, despite being prepared outwardly for all intents and purposes, despite having every reason to consider it a blessing, they are actually not prepared in the least.

 Beth's loss was not an apparent blessing to her by any means, but after everything she has been thru it seems as if she is prepared to find Natalee's remains and she thought she was. She wasn't, she isn't, but she must try. And she will be stronger once she finds her and gets to symbolicly say goodbye, I love you, and have her laid to rest where Beth knows she is and can visit. Funerals are for the living and they are so important in helping the living say goodbye and letting go of the dead.

Thanks for sharing. It is just unfamthomable what she has been through. She is remarkable!

Beth is a difficult person to keep up with and track as she travels frequently, with little notice, to God knows where most of the time. I have always worried that she would be caught alone with the news and not have any support with her. I realize that she is a grown woman and I see that she is now also a very strong woman, but everyone has limits and no one should have to hear that news by themselves. In this type of case, not even Beth knows what news she will get that will trigger the flood gates of grief.

Soon after that episode, she traveled to Holland for a video viewing she had never seen where she heard Joran saying what he did about Natalee. That is a long ways away from home to be when you get validation that what is most peoples worst fears, is true. Her case is a little different in that it brought her some comfort that indeed Natalee was not being held against her will as a sex slave, but that comfort did not come until after the shock of the video had wore off. But it is still hard to take her being in a foreign country alone in a hotel room having to deal with the emotions that the truth unleashed.

[martini]

[Tamikosmom]

Maybe I missed this last night (I was distracted about the time they talked about this)........ was the trap they found suspected of being a "plant" or merell a just a lost one by fishermen? (I just asked this on the OE thread as well)

The trap they found looked way larger than I would expect.  It looks like something lost by a ship a long time ago, not a small fisherman boat as the trap was quite large.  Did not look like it was planted to me.

Klaas

When hubby (a former Northern B.C. West Coast commercial fisherman) and I were watching a recorded Dateline this morning ... he concurred with your impression.

The size of that trap when compared to the size of the divers ... implied to him that ... this trap was not one that would be easily stored in the Fisherman's Hut or ... could easily be transported in a small boat.

Nevertheless ... I give the crew of the Persistence the benefit of the doubt that a there was a foundation of accumulated knowledge that they were deriving from in their sincere belief that this trap could be the one which Natalee Holloway was placed in and ... taken out to sea.

Janet

[Lala'sMom]

What did everyone think about that guy from Nicaragua and his wanting to talk to Tim? Did anyone but me think he sounded somewhat credible?

Well, if he is then the Persistence is wasting a ton of money and why didn't those Colombians just drop her in the deep, deep ocean?  Why keep her stowed away to bury  in another country?  Then again, that would certainly make "no body,no crime" a certainty, wouldn't  it?  What I can't understand is knowing Tim Miller could easily identify you why even risk it?  More confusion.

I agree Lala's, strange. I can't help thinking that someone pulling a hoax would just likely call the Tip line. But to contact Tim? and then go so far as to meet with him and share details(?) of this transport? It is very strange......obviously the guy had second thoughts before the second meeting......afterall you are likely dealing with the sort of persons(s) that slit the throat of the incinerator man.....and then there was Pitbull. As for hanging on to the body ....they knew  what they had and felt there was a possible way of extorting money from someone ie the family.

I guess I was a little more suspicious.  I thought the whole Marcos business sounded like something dreamed up by the Anybody But Joran crowd.  I wondered if the whole thing wasn't bought and paid for, staged for Tim's benefit.  Something to distract him from the Persistence search and just generally waste Tim's time.  Like the move the magician uses to keep you from seeing him do the trick right in front of you.  Distraction.  Diversion.

Exactly what I thought Peaches...Distraction...Maybe the Persistence is getting close....

But it did NOTHING to distract those on the Persistence. Tim went above and beyond the call of duty to track this guy down.  I would bet this guy is no longer breathing air. With a little undercover work..this guy...if still alive could be found rather easily.  I was more amazed that Tim went there to meet him...can you say hero?  Talk about standing with the girl...this was an amazing thing to do for Natalee.

[Kat_Gram]

Tamiskomom, I felt like such an idoit, my only excuse was I was so tired and full from dinner that I must have been in a twilight zone. Good thing I had no small children to look after. I even missed my fav BBC EastEnders English Soap Opera waiting. ( But it is on twice a week, I will catch it the next time ). I did read the transcripts, and will watch it on Ytube.
If they don't have enough to charge Joran, well, it's because they don't want to. Suspect they just want it all to go away and no more negative attention.
When is the next election in Aruba ? Or does it matter ? Seems like they are all cut from the same substandard cloth there.

[bleachedblack]

What did everyone think about that guy from Nicaragua and his wanting to talk to Tim? Did anyone but me think he sounded somewhat credible?

Well, if he is then the Persistence is wasting a ton of money and why didn't those Colombians just drop her in the deep, deep ocean?  Why keep her stowed away to bury  in another country?  Then again, that would certainly make "no body,no crime" a certainty, wouldn't  it?  What I can't understand is knowing Tim Miller could easily identify you why even risk it?  More confusion.

I agree Lala's, strange. I can't help thinking that someone pulling a hoax would just likely call the Tip line. But to contact Tim? and then go so far as to meet with him and share details(?) of this transport? It is very strange......obviously the guy had second thoughts before the second meeting......afterall you are likely dealing with the sort of persons(s) that slit the throat of the incinerator man.....and then there was Pitbull. As for hanging on to the body ....they knew  what they had and felt there was a possible way of extorting money from someone ie the family.

I guess I was a little more suspicious.  I thought the whole Marcos business sounded like something dreamed up by the Anybody But Joran crowd.  I wondered if the whole thing wasn't bought and paid for, staged for Tim's benefit.  Something to distract him from the Persistence search and just generally waste Tim's time.  Like the move the magician uses to keep you from seeing him do the trick right in front of you.  Distraction.  Diversion.

Exactly what I thought Peaches...Distraction...Maybe the Persistence is getting close....

But it did NOTHING to distract those on the Persistence. Tim went above and beyond the call of duty to track this guy down.  I would bet this guy is no longer breathing air. With a little undercover work..this guy...if still alive could be found rather easily.  I was more amazed that Tim went there to meet him...can you say hero?  Talk about standing with the girl...this was an amazing thing to do for Natalee.

The guy also met with a representative from the American Embassy in Nicaragua......

[bleachedblack]

We have a highly technical medical term for people such as he who met with Tim.....










F _ _ _ ing NUTS........

[Magnolia]

One thing in the Dateline episode that I didn't remember hearing
before was that Mos asked Beth and Dave to bring Natalee's
medical records to Aruba when they went in December 07.
Then he asked them about drugs and rehab when they were talking.
Sounds like he was listening to the physic nuts or Renho.
No wonder Beth and Dave were mad when they left that meeting.

[Observer]

Hi Guys,

Still in Boston but wanted to give you a quick update. Day went well as we handed out all the literature,pens and most of the tote bags. Marlee,Hotshot and Gabriel all showed up today and it was nice to meet them. Heard much the same as last year from people as they will never go to Aruba,disgusted what the Aruban Govt has done and prayers for natalee that she is found. Not quite the same as last year with the weather as it affected the turnout but it is quite clear the middle class Bostonians care very much for natalee and her Family and some actually thanked us for coming out and supporting them. Looks like we will make it for day two as we are realize the importance of being a voice for Natalee at this event.

When we first arrived me and Hotshot did go to the Aruba booth and low and behold Mr.Rob Smith was there. I Introduced myself and told him my name and that I was from scaredmonkeys. He knew all about us of course,it is on video as I am sure it will prolly be posted. Just a short chat and visted a nice lady that Manages one of the resorts in Aruba as we chatted with her last year. We were constantly harrased today by security and police and I was personally warned at least 6 times about the rules. We handed out quite a bunch of literature so they kept accusing us of handing it inside as well as other harrassments about the signs and so on. Didnt faze us one bit as obviously the Arubans were concerned about us,as they should be with the Amount of money they paid for the Booth and being a major sponsor. All in all I am glad I made it and like I said last year it was worth every second of my time. We made a difference,the signs were great and hopefully the weather and day is better tommorow.

No Justice for natalee No Tourism for Aruba  

[Nut44x4]

Magnolia.....that is exactly where Mos got that idea from. Unbelievable!

[Tamikosmom]

It is appears that the Prosecutor is now spokesperson defending at great lengths ... any accusations/suspicions ... which is directed towards those in the Aruba Law Enforcement.

If there was any any objectivity on the part of Hans Mos ... he would not have responded defensively.  Hans Mos would have taken Beth's concerns seriously by assuring her that he would investigate the matter.  My understand is that Hans Mos position dictates he is required to be an advocate for the victim ... an advocate for Natalee Holloway.

Did Hans Mos take into consider prior to responding that ... in March, 2006 ... the chief of police implied in the 48 HOURS MYSTERY interview that investigators had conclused that Natalee death was due to shock reaction.

Did Hans Mos take into consider priot to responding that ... Joran concedes in his book that Freddy's statement to authority implies that Joran shook Natalee when she appeared to be unconcious.

Janet

++++++++++++++
 
Beth Holloway
DATELINE
February 23, 2008

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23301056/page/6/

Beth Holloway: The facts are within 48 hours of Natalee's disappearance, a lead detective asked me if she had a history of epilepsy or seizures. Two and a half years later, the main suspect himself, admits that Natalee -- he felt as if she suffered an epilepsy or seizure. And he even indicates how she's shaking. So, if we look at just that one-- just that one piece, that's one thread out of a lot. Then, I have to say yes, there definitely was some collusion and corruption going on in the early days of Natalee's disappearance. Absolutely.
 
However, according to the prosecutor's office it's standard procedure to ask if a missing person might have a seizure disorder.

Police and prosecution officials declined on-camera interviews, but have consistently denied that there was any corruption, collusion or mishandling of the investigation.


Joran van der Sloot
20/20 ABC SPECIAL
Re: Peter Devries - Video Recording
February 3, 2008

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4222253&page

In one taped conversation, van der Sloot told van der Eem that Holloway visibly convulsed "like a movie," that she was shaking "a lot."
 
"Did you try CPR on her?" asked van der Eem.
 
"Of course, I tried everything," van der Sloot said. "I tried to shake her.  I was shking the bitch.  I was like, 'What is wrong with you man?' I almost wanted to cry. Why does this s*** have to happen to me?"


Gerold Dompig
48 HOURS MYSTERY
March 22, 2006

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/22/48hours/main1430644_page5.shtml
 
Wherever she was, police now think that while Natalee was with Joran, she died suddenly from an overdose of intoxicants.

"We feel strongly that she probably went into shock or something happened to her system with all this alcohol maybe on top of that other drugs which either she took or they gave her and that she just collapsed," says Dompig.

The crime, Dompig suspects, occurred when the body was illegally disposed of. The boys may have acted alone.


Joran van der Sloot
De Zaak Natalee Holloway
 
Page 161
After Freddy's second statement on June 13th at 18:30, in which he keeps insisting that I told him the first story already on May 30th, the police confront us as best friends with each other.  Some further statements follow after that.  In the end Freddy states in his 6th and 7th statements (verbatim reports) that I have told him that Natalee went unconscious several times and did not regain consciousness at a certain moment, that I tried to wake her up by shaking her but that but this also did not work.
Unofficial Engish translation

[klaasend]

Hi Guys,

Still in Boston but wanted to give you a quick update. Day went well as we handed out all the literature,pens and most of the tote bags. Marlee,Hotshot and Gabriel all showed up today and it was nice to meet them. Heard much the same as last year from people as they will never go to Aruba,disgusted what the Aruban Govt has done and prayers for natalee that she is found. Not quite the same as last year with the weather as it affected the turnout but it is quite clear the middle class Bostonians care very much for natalee and her Family and some actually thanked us for coming out and supporting them. Looks like we will make it for day two as we are realize the importance of being a voice for Natalee at this event.

When we first arrived me and Hotshot did go to the Aruba booth and low and behold Mr.Rob Smith was there. I Introduced myself and told him my name and that I was from scaredmonkeys. He knew all about us of course,it is on video as I am sure it will prolly be posted. Just a short chat and visted a nice lady that Manages one of the resorts in Aruba as we chatted with her last year. We were constantly harrased today by security and police and I was personally warned at least 6 times about the rules. We handed out quite a bunch of literature so they kept accusing us of handing it inside as well as other harrassments about the signs and so on. Didnt faze us one bit as obviously the Arubans were concerned about us,as they should be with the Amount of money they paid for the Booth and being a major sponsor. All in all I am glad I made it and like I said last year it was worth every second of my time. We made a difference,the signs were great and hopefully the weather and day is better tommorow.

No Justice for natalee No Tourism for Aruba  

Hi ******* - great job you guys are doing!  Can't wait to see that video!

[private eye]

Maybe I missed this last night (I was distracted about the time they talked about this)........ was the trap they found suspected of being a "plant" or merell a just a lost one by fishermen? (I just asked this on the OE thread as well)

The trap they found looked way larger than I would expect.  It looks like something lost by a ship a long time ago, not a small fisherman boat as the trap was quite large.  Did not look like it was planted to me.

Klaas

When hubby (a former Northern B.C. West Coast commercial fisherman) and I were watching a recorded Dateline this morning ... he concurred with your impression.

The size of that trap when compared to the size of the divers ... implied to him that ... this trap was not one that would be easily stored in the Fisherman's Hut or ... could easily be transported in a small boat.

Nevertheless ... I give the crew of the Persistence the benefit of the doubt that a there was a foundation of accumulated knowledge that they were deriving from in their sincere belief that this trap could be the one which Natalee Holloway was placed in and ... taken out to sea.

Janet

The trap that they showed being gone from the fishermens hut was pretty large. I assumed they carried it out in the water to the boat, had a rope on it, tied it to the side of the boat with the trap under the water and motored it out to where they dropped it. That way no one would have noticed it as they motored out, and it is too large and heavy with a body in it to set inside a boat, plus that prevented as much as possible any DNA getting in the boat. There was no need of lifting the trap all the way into the boat.

[Buckeye]

Hi Guys,

Still in Boston but wanted to give you a quick update. Day went well as we handed out all the literature,pens and most of the tote bags. Marlee,Hotshot and Gabriel all showed up today and it was nice to meet them. Heard much the same as last year from people as they will never go to Aruba,disgusted what the Aruban Govt has done and prayers for natalee that she is found. Not quite the same as last year with the weather as it affected the turnout but it is quite clear the middle class Bostonians care very much for natalee and her Family and some actually thanked us for coming out and supporting them. Looks like we will make it for day two as we are realize the importance of being a voice for Natalee at this event.

When we first arrived me and Hotshot did go to the Aruba booth and low and behold Mr.Rob Smith was there. I Introduced myself and told him my name and that I was from scaredmonkeys. He knew all about us of course,it is on video as I am sure it will prolly be posted. Just a short chat and visted a nice lady that Manages one of the resorts in Aruba as we chatted with her last year. We were constantly harrased today by security and police and I was personally warned at least 6 times about the rules. We handed out quite a bunch of literature so they kept accusing us of handing it inside as well as other harrassments about the signs and so on. Didnt faze us one bit as obviously the Arubans were concerned about us,as they should be with the Amount of money they paid for the Booth and being a major sponsor. All in all I am glad I made it and like I said last year it was worth every second of my time. We made a difference,the signs were great and hopefully the weather and day is better tommorow.

No Justice for natalee No Tourism for Aruba  

Nice Job.  Thanks. 

[San]

One thing in the Dateline episode that I didn't remember hearing
before was that Mos asked Beth and Dave to bring Natalee's
medical records to Aruba when they went in December 07.
Then he asked them about drugs and rehab when they were talking.
Sounds like he was listening to the physic nuts or Renho.
No wonder Beth and Dave were mad when they left that meeting.

That's exactly who he was listening to.  He knows damn well Natalee had no history of drugs or rehab.  He was grasping at straws to make the "Natalee died of a massive cocaine OD" stick.

This reminds me of when Karin Janssen asked if Beth was related to Hitler.

[Buckeye]

For Dr. Phil, just in case Deepak's lawyer doesn't come through with the retainer info:

11/18/2005

MERCHANTS’ LAWSUIT

Some merchants are quite upset with the latest developments surrounding the case of Natalee Holloway, and expressed on Thursday that they are preparing a case against the complete production of Dr. Phil in the U.S.

This deals especially with the merchants whose business interests is that they do a lot of business with the U.S. The latest statements from this TV host is inflicting and continues to inflict damage to our island.

Thursday they were in contact with at least one very popular law firm in the U.S. in order to evaluate a possible lawsuit against Dr. Phil. It seems that the lawyers in the U.S. are convening to give the merchants from Aruba an answer about their questions if there is space for said lawsuit.

http://getagripmonkey.blogspot.com/2005/11/merchants-in-aruba-are-upset-arubans.html

[martini]

Brinkman moppert door : Ook Aruba is corrupt
Hero Brinkman, PVV kamerlid vindt dat het eiland Aruba helemaal onafhankelijk moet worden van Nederland.
Nadat in 1986 Aruba een eerste stap heeft gezet met de status aparte, is het volgens Brinkman tijd voor de tweede stap, namelijk onafhankelijkheid.

Brinkman vindt niet alleen de Antillen een corrupt boevennest. Ook Aruba is ook corrupt. Toch is Aruba klaar voor onafhankelijkheid. Het is een van de rijkste landen in de regio en steekt in tegenstelling tot Curaçao, de handen uit de mouwen.

http://antillen.blogo.nl/?comments/2008112-brinkman-moppert-door-ook-ar

Brinkman grumble by: Also Aruba is corrupt Hero Brinkman, PVV Member of Parliament finds that the island Aruba must become entirely independent of the Netherlands. After in 1986 Aruba, a first step has put with the status separate, is it according to Brinkman time for the second step, namely independence. Brinkman not only find the Antilles a corrupt gangster nest. Also Aruba is also corrupt. Toch Aruba is ready for independence. It is of the richest countries in the region and puts in contrast to Curaçao, the hands from the sleeves.
translated text Babel Fish

[Dihannah1]

Hi Guys,

Still in Boston but wanted to give you a quick update. Day went well as we handed out all the literature,pens and most of the tote bags. Marlee,Hotshot and Gabriel all showed up today and it was nice to meet them. Heard much the same as last year from people as they will never go to Aruba,disgusted what the Aruban Govt has done and prayers for natalee that she is found. Not quite the same as last year with the weather as it affected the turnout but it is quite clear the middle class Bostonians care very much for natalee and her Family and some actually thanked us for coming out and supporting them. Looks like we will make it for day two as we are realize the importance of being a voice for Natalee at this event.

When we first arrived me and Hotshot did go to the Aruba booth and low and behold Mr.Rob Smith was there. I Introduced myself and told him my name and that I was from scaredmonkeys. He knew all about us of course,it is on video as I am sure it will prolly be posted. Just a short chat and visted a nice lady that Manages one of the resorts in Aruba as we chatted with her last year. We were constantly harrased today by security and police and I was personally warned at least 6 times about the rules. We handed out quite a bunch of literature so they kept accusing us of handing it inside as well as other harrassments about the signs and so on. Didnt faze us one bit as obviously the Arubans were concerned about us,as they should be with the Amount of money they paid for the Booth and being a major sponsor. All in all I am glad I made it and like I said last year it was worth every second of my time. We made a difference,the signs were great and hopefully the weather and day is better tommorow.

No Justice for natalee No Tourism for Aruba  

AWWESOME JOB!  True monkey hero's for braving that weather!   Thanks so much for standing so tall for the Monkey's and justice!

Please let Marlee know to check her email, when she get's a few minutes....

[Tamikosmom]

One thing in the Dateline episode that I didn't remember hearing
before was that Mos asked Beth and Dave to bring Natalee's
medical records to Aruba when they went in December 07.
Then he asked them about drugs and rehab when they were talking.
Sounds like he was listening to the physic nuts or Renho.
No wonder Beth and Dave were mad when they left that meeting.

Magnolia ... Hans Mos' immediately absolved Julia Renfro from the accusations of Castillo and Young with a published public letter but ... proceeded to investigate the dispicable accusations against Beth and Jug ... proceeded to investigate per Rudy Croes instructions.

There was no official letter forthcoming from the prosecutor referring to accusations against Beth and Jug by Castillo and Young as a witch-hunt.

HANS MOS ... WHY THE DOUBLE STANDARD??

Janet

++++++++++

http://www.amigoe.com/artman/publish/artikel_38773.php
Amigoe
January 17, 2008
Natalee abused by stepfather Jug

This time, the local media has paid plenty of attention to the story of Dan Young and Kelly Castillo.

ORANJESTAD — Minister Rudy Croes (MEP) of Justice is of the opinion that the findings of the two American investigators Daniel Young and Kelly Castillo in the disappearance case of Natalee Holloway, must be seriously considered. The two assert that Natalee’s stepfather Jug Twitty has abused and impregnated her and that her mother Beth knew about it. The two also say that Natalee had died from an overdose two weeks after the night on the beach with Joran van der Sloot when she disappeared. “Joran is innocent”, said the investigators.

<snipped>

Croes is of the opinion that now that the case against the suspects Joran and the brothers Deepak and Satish Kalpoe has brought no results, the Public Prosecution must also consider other scenarios. Castillo and Young’s findings must therefore be seriously investigated, said the minister. “After Beth has been in Oprah’s program, it will be good to tell the other side of the story.” Oprah Winfrey has spent some time on the Holiday-matter in her show yesterday.


http://gretawire.foxnews.com/2008/02/08/press-release-from-prosecutor-in-aruba-question-to-you/

press release
Postbus 1163, Oranjestad, Aruba ,
Havenstraat 2
Oranjestad, Aruba
To all media
From the Public Prosecutor’s Office
Date February 8, 2008
Pages 1
J.v.d.S. interrogated at Police Station in Rotterdam

<snipped>

Under the direction of the Public Prosecutor’s Office, the Aruban Police Department is still investigating this case. In the interest of the investigation, the Public Prosecutor’s Office appeals to the press to please refrain from a witch-hunt or private investigations or fishing expeditions (all this in the broadest sense of the word),

The Public Prosecutor’s Office doesn’t fail to notice that the investigation into the disappearance of Natalee Holloway draws a lot of interest from media and general public. However, this interest seems to be turning into a witch-hunt in which several persons are being harassed.

The Public Prosecutor’s Office regards this as not acceptable. In the first place, without any confirmation persons are being labeled as a suspect, and harassed as such.

<snipped>


The Lineup
December 2, 2007

As for the second part, yes Beth Holloway came in this morning about 9 o'clock, about 1/2 hour later than expected in a police station in the city Oranjestadt and after which she was put in a conversation with the prosecuting office, Hans Mos and Dop Kruimel After that was finished both the prosecutors left the office or left the police station and by surprise the interrogators came in and (inaudible) by Dolph Richardson the chief investigator, they started interrogating her which lasted for over 5 hours. She left not very happy and wouldn't say anything on camera. She left the police department about 2:30.
Unofficial Transcript

[private eye]

One thing in the Dateline episode that I didn't remember hearing
before was that Mos asked Beth and Dave to bring Natalee's
medical records to Aruba when they went in December 07.
Then he asked them about drugs and rehab when they were talking.
Sounds like he was listening to the physic nuts or Renho.
No wonder Beth and Dave were mad when they left that meeting.

That's exactly who he was listening to.  He knows damn well Natalee had no history of drugs or rehab.  He was grasping at straws to make the "Natalee died of a massive cocaine OD" stick.

This reminds me of when Karin Janssen asked if Beth was related to Hitler.

I would have assumed he was trying to clear up the file. Those were rumors, and he had to address them. Maybe he had bad intentions, but those questions were easy to answer. Natalee's history holds no surprises, so let them look. I would think that anything Beth can do to help, she wants to do, and wishes they would hurry up and ask so they can rest those thoughts and investigate.